Patient to Patient transfer of meds/clones?

[Cloud9]

Cloud9, you could sign the patient over and then help them or vice versa.

i am not interested in asking someone to sign me on as a caregiver just so i can sell them a few clones.


edit.
thanks for all the responses. i am going to go back and re read this thread a few times. lots of good info.

 

[Cloud9]

No exactly true, most municipalities are still issuing individual sales tax numbers to patient/caregivers that make direct sales to their patients. Even though most do not do it there are alot that do. Any home base delivery is taxable in the city that the actual transaction happens in. Presumabley if you have 5 patients that your sellin meds to, you are a home base business, not rising to the commercial level requiring a state liscence but still makin money off your home base efforts and as such is taxable. By paying the taxes it also allows you to treat the home base business in a traditional since in which you have expenses and cost that can be applied against your profits to offset meaning you can right off your expenses to operate and that is a super big deal when your spending 20 or 30 grand a year per setup in production expense.

Again the masses do not do this but alot, I mean alot, of people do and it is the actual law for any home base business not specific to mmj at all.

I have to pay taxes on all my personal mmj activities, albeit creative amounts, and am taxed out the ass for my state edibles activity, I have multiple tax numbers privately at a city level and officially with the state, but I run it all as a business and not like a I am havin frequent garage sales or makin nic nacs for the flea market all of which is also taxable stuff anyways.

Again, I am not sayin anybody is comin to get ya but it is the law and the goverment figures everyone owes them tax no matter what. And for sure don't think that no ones doin it because there are quite a few that do.

Technically they could require that all caregivers have a tax number unless they can prove that they give away 100% of the meds to their patient base, other than that everytnig a caregiver does for a patient is taxable. Hell they could assign a value to the caregiver services itself and count that as taxable against the patient...gifts have a value to the government any way you look at it.

Tex

Unless you are paying local sales tax in the city that the actual patient to patient sale happens, your breakin the law...all patient to patient sales are taxable transactions, thats the actual trick right there..

Tex

What I am talkin about has nothing to do with 1284 or the DOR at all it is simply the rules that apply to all home based businesses and goes along way in trying to prove the legitamacy of what your doing and justification of the income you have and beleive me that is a much bigger deal than you think, i am right in the middle of it right now and its a pain in the ass.

You can definately sell meds at cost and pay no taxes on it but you have to support it with "cost" and "income" on your tax return or through your home based business filing, you can't just say that you sell it at cost and pay no taxes, you have to support it in your tax filing.

If i would have paid all the proper taxes the first couple of years up here i would have been able to make my farm a liscensed outdoor grow facility as well as operate a full on despensary on it due to all the fun "home rule" laws out here..but since i didn't, no way to get covered or grandfathered in had i been doin all the taxes correctely and filed in a timely manner it woukld be a done deal. The income tax part is what trips most up and the government will use it to trip you up for sure.

40% of the DOR rejections right now are because of IRS issues and most of that stems from playing games with taxes that last couple of years.

Remember what brought down Al Capone? not much has changed..

Tex

you are essentially confirming what i am asking.
if i were to set up a home based business selling clones and/or meds to only medical patients, then as a patient myself, my patient to patient transaction is protected by AM20.
the business side of it doesnt matter what you are selling as long as it is legal, right? so you could track the expenses, write off grow space expenses, record income (do you need receipts?) and pay taxes on the profits.

am i understanding this correctly?

 

[RMCG]

Not sure how you are going to sell clones if you are limited by plant count.

Well, I do, but you know what I mean...

 

[rocky high]

Remember what brought down Al Capone? not much has changed..

Tex

To you with dollar bills in your eyes, no wiser a reminder.

 

[Texas Kid]

you are essentially confirming what i am asking.
if i were to set up a home based business selling clones and/or meds to only medical patients, then as a patient myself, my patient to patient transaction is protected by AM20.
the business side of it doesnt matter what you are selling as long as it is legal, right? so you could track the expenses, write off grow space expenses, record income (do you need receipts?) and pay taxes on the profits.

am i understanding this correctly?

You are correct

Tex

 

[sky high]

I have to disagree. the REASON for 1284 was to keep the average patient from profiting from sales....thus the cap @ 5 patients and the verbiage that states that you can only sell to your 5 patients.

Or am I (hopefully) reading this wrong? (not that it matters, really)

yeah TK....all the folks who have had the exclusive on sales lately (Centers) are gonna find things really, really expensive and tough going forward. So far they've been skating but the ice is thinning and a buncha folks will soon fall through the ice and drown.

I'm not paying the fuckers a CENT in taxes. Fuck them for fucking with the original law!

Game on. Same as it ever was. Place your bets, kids. Still $250 to play... and the casino will soon be filling with new customers...

smile, yer on Candid Camera!

wot a mess...

s h

 

[mendel]

Good thing we all give our weed away for free, or there might be something to look at.........naw

 

[Texas Kid]

Unless you shop at or work at or own a despensary/infused products liscense 1284 has nothing to do with you.

Ammendment 20 has not had one single word changed in it as a result of 1284 or anything else for that matter, same as it was before 1284 and it is still the same. 5 patients was the max for AM20, it was just fought out in court in the last couple of years but the actual ammendment was 5 patients even a few years ago. Where does AM20 guarantee profits for anybody or evn protect them for that matter, AM20 says nothing about patient to patient sales, it doesn't approve or except profits anywhere in it, it is really pretty vague so in the absence of actual language the attorneys have run with it but AM20 is pretty limited in its scope of things.

1284 is about capturing tax dollars...period..its not about helping patients, quality of medicine, price, variety, supply chain, none of that, so ya gotta get past that real quick and if they could figure out a way to capture the sales tax from every caregiver out there they would do it in an instant, trust me...so the way it is now, they are goin to restrict it in order to channel more and more people through the retail venue they have on lock and those are goin to state liscensed facilitites. If every citizen out there paid all the taxes they are required to by law, on their own, there would be any of this at all, but we all know that is not how it works.

Just think, if everyone who ever sold a bag, pound, joint, or brownie to another person paid the applicable tax on those sales, and paid tax based on their respective tax bracket assessed by actual income level..can you imagine??? thats the problem right there, that is why the government wants its piece of a 40 billion dollar industry, because no one actually follows the rules...so you get massive regulation.

All you private caregivers out there, you pretty much owe the government/other taxpayers between $18-$40 off every $100 bucks worth of product you sell, so $54-$120 every ounce, up to $500 on every pound...how many do that? unless you do, quit bitchin about the governments involvement, you created the need for their intrusion. Its to bad we live in a tax bases nation, but we do, thats the American way. Sit down and put pencil to how much you would have actually paid in taxes if this were a real job with SS, medicare, and FICA taken out of your check...now that you see that staggering number keep wonderin why the government is up our ass right now.

If I am payin taxes out the ass and your not, then your cheatin me and other taxpayers, not the government my friend

Death and taxes, this is America gang

Tex

 

[mendel]

If I am payin taxes out the ass and your not, then your cheatin me and other taxpayers, not the government my friend

Cheating, as in stealing, lol that is some funny shit man.......:banana1sv6:

The fact of the matter is that the mmj program in Colorado worked well as an underground cottage industry for many years, it was unseen by the general public and for the most part govt regulators as well. Colorado mmj just wasnt a factor.

Only when every schmuck with $10k and a grow light moved here and opened dispensaries on every corner and hired hookers to hold 'free joint' signs, was the program put under scrutiny. That coupled with the flood of new patients signed up in the back room of said shops,well......

If anyone is stealing, ill profess, toungue in cheek, that out of state profiteers came to colorado and stole my freedom with their greed and amateur hour 'business' efforts. Laws are made for idiots who cant do the right thing on their own.

Nobody likes a used car salesman.

 

[Dorje]

Cheating, as in stealing, lol that is some funny shit man.......:banana1sv6:

The fact of the matter is that the mmj program in Colorado worked well as an underground cottage industry for many years, it was unseen by the general public and for the most part govt regulators as well. Colorado mmj just wasnt a factor.

Only when every schmuck with $10k and a grow light moved here and opened dispensaries on every corner and hired hookers to hold 'free joint' signs, was the program put under scrutiny. That coupled with the flood of new patients signed up in the back room of said shops,well......

If anyone is stealing, ill profess, toungue in cheek, that out of state profiteers came to colorado and stole my freedom with their greed and amateur hour 'business' efforts. Laws are made for idiots who cant do the right thing on their own.

Nobody likes a used car salesman.

I understand what you're saying but I disagree.

First, a lot of guys see this issue with rose-colored glasses. The fact is, before all this came down there were, and still are, a lot of commercial ops that put out weed with bud rot and/or pm, and use pesticides in a dangerous manner. Many times patients do not have a choice of what they get on the black market.... More and more these ops are run by organized crime, Mexicans in our national parks, Cubans and Vietnamese are setting up houses and warehouses on a very large scale, the Asians are going worldwide with it, and have recently been busted in the UK with the largest indoor grows ever found in that country. Weed was being passed that had crushed glass sprayed on it to make it look better... The fact is, more and more weed is being grown by real criminals who don't give a fuck. I'd rather see RJ Reynolds producing Marlboro Greens according to laws that require there to be no residual pesticides or fungus in their product than what we have now.

So... from what I've seen this mmj explosion is a big step forward for the patient. For the non-grower that uses mj as a medicine, they now have a lot more choices and availability which is a good thing. Maybe it doesn't matter for those who are lucky enough to have found a good caregiver, but not all have.

There are far more important considerations here than preserving an underground culture, like having an end to the drug war and the ban on growing industrial hemp. Those 2 issues require legalization, and it's never going to happen if it stays medical only and largely underground.

Eventually MMCs will figure out how to grow good weed consistently and the price is going to be driven down to reasonable levels, which again is good for the patient. Sure it doesn't look good now, but growing weed isn't rocket science and eventually any MMC will have to have good product to survive.

Those who want to keep it illegal and med-only are profiteers as much as the greediest MMC that helped push 1284 through, just on opposite sides of the same coin.

 

[Texas Kid]

Every grower in every state has operated successfully as an underground cottage industry for years, only the med states are makin it a mainstream pain in the ass..it is only when a state goes med that there are suddenly two camps, med vs non med, legal vs illegal...before that everyone is one big happy felony family..

Worked good is all matter of perspective for sure and we are the minority it seems in that arguement..a majority of the recent voters seemed to think more regulation and/or outright bans is what we needed here.

Obama gettin elected and his call to the DEA to gave people some feeling of freedom to do this on main street, that was the day everything changed in this state and I am sure every other med state as well, the flood gates opened within a couple of weeks from then..literally went from a dozen or so despensaries in the state to 100's in a month and most of those locally owned that i knew...who's fault is that? the lax procecution policy? people takin advantage of a changing emphasis on procecution? entrepenuers? people that want meds that can't grow? what if the white houses changes guard next year and we are back in the dark ages with rabid federal intrusions, siezures, forfietures, procecutions? could happen...

Honestly, it would take the DEA hittin two or three big despensaries or 8 or 10 on Federal and Broadway and totally shakin them up for all this to go away tomorrow, people with money will not invest, build, support, or operate a business of any kind, especially one with a huge upfront cost required by the state, that will land them broke and in federal prison...it is just real lax right now, but that shit changes

Tex

 

[Dorje]

Every grower in every state has operated successfully as an underground cottage industry for years, only the med states are makin it a mainstream pain in the ass..it is only when a state goes med that there are suddenly two camps, med vs non med, legal vs illegal...before that everyone is one big happy felony family..

Worked good is all matter of perspective for sure and we are the minority it seems in that arguement..a majority of the recent voters seemed to think more regulation and/or outright bans is what we needed here.

Obama gettin elected and his call to the DEA to gave people some feeling of freedom to do this on main street, that was the day everything changed in this state and I am sure every other med state as well, the flood gates opened within a couple of weeks from then..literally went from a dozen or so despensaries in the state to 100's in a month and most of those locally owned that i knew...who's fault is that? the lax procecution policy? people takin advantage of a changing emphasis on procecution? entrepenuers? people that want meds that can't grow? what if the white houses changes guard next year and we are back in the dark ages with rabid federal intrusions, siezures, forfietures, procecutions? could happen...

Honestly, it would take the DEA hittin two or three big despensaries or 8 or 10 on Federal and Broadway and totally shakin them up for all this to go away tomorrow, people with money will not invest, build, support, or operate a business of any kind, especially one with a huge upfront cost required by the state, that will land them broke and in federal prison...it is just real lax right now, but that shit changes

Tex

It's almost too late to put the genie back in the bottle.... in 2 years from now, when Palin is elected president by the wise voters of this great country ( I kid), it's going to be too late. It would pretty much require a war with the state, and the DOR is just as complicit in this as any grower, by any definition they are conspirators in this. What's the DEA going to do? Sieze all the state records and arrest hundreds if not thousands of people?

Since the GOP can't find anyone to run against Obama I think he'll probably see another term, then it'll be 6 years from now minimum before policies change, then it'll def. be too late.

Also, Tex... nothing has really changed, there have always been growers that want it to stay illegal and those who don't, it's just that in the past it hasn't come up for discussion much. But I always thought those that wanted to keep it illegal were a bunch of greedy douchebags and I have no respect for them at all. Most of them are just turning out commercial schwag to make as much money as possible and don't give a shit about who's going to recieve their product and they are no better than any other common criminal (edit: as far as their mindset and intentions, the result isn't as bad as an actual crime but also isn't as good as it could be) IMO.

 

[kuz]

Its about more than taxes, its about control. Couple million in taxes doesnt have much impact on the 20 or 30 billion dollars the state needs to operate.

There are a lot of ways people put cash in their pocket without paying taxes, and the taxman knows a lot of red flags to look out for. They were mostly concerned with mmj being a threat to society when they wrote 1284, tax money is just a bonus.

I dont blame anybody, 3000 patients nobody cared much, 75,000 and people noticed.

If you dont think marijuana is a threat to society then why not legalize? Nobody is worried about losing tax dollars to someone brewing a few bottles of beer in their basement. How many big time bootleggers are running around out there?

 

[RMCG]

If you dont think marijuana is a threat to society then why not legalize? Nobody is worried about losing tax dollars to someone brewing a few bottles of beer in their basement. How many big time bootleggers are running around out there?

Depends on the part of the country...

When I lived in VA, there were SEVERAL large busts of warehouses nestled in the hills, turning out 30k barrels of hooch.

I never saw the market for it, who was buying it and who was drinking it, who knows, but it was definitely there.

 

[sky high]

I believe the 5 patient figure was a number the state tossed out on the table a few years ago arbitrarily after there had been NO limit on caregiverships since the Amendment's inception...and THAT was what caused the uproar as many patients (growing for more than 5) stepped forward and said "No..there IS NO LIMIT STATED ANYWHERE in A20 and the CDPHE CANNOT PLACE ONE THERE ARBITRARILY".

That is my recollection from living it as a patient. Maybe some of the other long timers will back me (or disagree with me) on this recollection? Mendel...pp69...Sputnik....was there ever a cap of 5 in amendment 20? (or was the moldy, PM-infested bud sprayed with DDT that we all grew, sold, and smoked before the saviours came to State clouding my mind and I'm not remembering this correctly?)

Yes, it is America...a place where marijuana is STILL a Schedule 1 narcotic, where medical laws and "licenses" to deal pot are no more than fairy tales, and where paying taxes on illegal drug sales just >doesn't< protect you from going to prison.

crazy fuckin place, huh?

wot a mess....

 

[mendel]

You right sky, the registry pulled that number out of their asses in a meeting a few years ago and attempted to enforce said #, a judge called it 'arbitrary', and overturned the registry's 'ruling'.

Only when the issue was addressed in 1284 did 5 become the magic #. I hear tell of a fellow...........:cool0019:................who had 17 patients. He dropped down to 5 with the new ruling and grew bigger plants than before. Those 12 old friends who were dropped still stop by nearly every month for a visit, nothing has changed but the wallpaper.

 

[sky high]

Bingo, mendel. I'm old....but not tHAT old just yet. LOL.

I kinda remember that guy you speak of. He had 10+patients LONG before anyone else I knew had 10 + patients and LONG before it was truly "safe" to have those kinda numbers.
Yup....before they were giving lights/meds back in busts. Well before they were looking the other way. It's good to hear he took excellent care of his peeps...and still does. If you see him tell him sky says "Much respect, my friend....much respect".

And remember folks..... there's still time to send a letter to the CDPHE to state your views on the caregiver issue.

wot a mess....

s h

 

[Mr.Sputnik]

..if you could FIND more than 5 patients without going through a shady character like Tim Tipton. I had 2 and I thought that was doing GREAT considering I hadn't heven HEARD of anyone else having an MMJ card in the state at that time. It's not like I was blogging about this shit! LOL! Overgrow had been shut down and emery had been busted, different time for sure.

If you could find more than 5 patients and you could care for more than 5 then what's the big deal? There were only like 1,200 patients in the state at that time so it wasn't like 1 person had 100 patients like they did in 09.

there weren't people blatantly selling weed in public to people who didn't have a legit reason for a card either. At least it was out of sight if that was the case. The dispensaries really fucked things up for the laws in this state.

Not that I hate dispensaries, I just hate people who step on my freedoms by doing something that I do properly in a beligerant manner. People who don't know how to use a firearm properly around other people is another thing that comes to mind. MOST dispensaries don't get it, I know that there are a few who do but those who don't have really destroyed my MMJ freedoms in this state. so yes, your $5 joint sign, hot elf bitches, and neon weed leafs on broadway PISS ME THE FUCK OFF!!!! THANKS FOR PISSING IN MY FACE!!!

What was the most you guys had heard of 1 person having prior to 09? I can't imagine it was more than 20 unless this person was part of a co-op or something.

Yea I'm down for wiping 1284 off of the books. it won't supprise me one bit if Romer owns the one surveliance company that can do the required. Dirty politics. What, did the dispensary folks think they were getting exclusive access to the CO MMJ market with HB1284? yea fucking right. What do democrats do best? regulate and tax the piss out of everything, set up legal monopolies, and spend your money on coke and hookers.

ALL of us will suffer from the 09 genie.

Why are the dispensaries bitching about this $30k surveliance system? that's your fucking bribe to Romer for giving you an oligopoly, and yes it WILL be an oligopoly of a few large dispensaries WHEN romer gets his way. This will get passed more easily than HB1284. Dispensaries made their bed, now they've got to sleep in it. Once dispensaries opened the door for commercial MMJ profiteering you can bet that the greediest fucks on the planet will buy up your politicians and run everybody out of the business except those with vested political interest. If you didn't buy a politician and you're in commercial MMJ prepare to be squandered.

Don't expect any love from caregivers, it's not like we were shown ANY form of respect from HB1284 or any other "oh shit!" legislation that came through as a result of commercial MMJ profiteering. Not to mention everybody STILL making up their own rules about MMJ.

I hate to say it but we really do need someone to come in and start cracking skulls so we might know what the law really is so it stops changing every time chris romer rips a fart or a doctor writes a 3,000 plant edibles rec. I actually MISS THE DEA!!! they could at least keep some shit under control. the further the MMJ scene gets pushed the less legitimate it makes MMJ patients look. This whole scene is so far out of whack from the original intent of AM20 it makes me want to puke. Who are we kidding that this is still a medical scene? It's an excuse to sell some fucking herb. You spend more money for an edible rec vs a "normal" plant rec. case in point, it's ALL profiteering. The emporer wears no clothes. "It's medical" my ass, you're only fooling yourself.

Most of these dispensaries were dreaming of "porsche panameras by christmas". Well I got some news, there's people with a shit ton more money and infinitely more greed who have their hands around your throats about now. Funny how I felt this way about a year ago. Here comes big pharma and tobacco, sooner than you expected.

It doesn't feel good to get pissed on now does it.

Sky, to answer your question I do remember there being a 5 patient cap in the initial AM20 but it was removed. I really didn't notice when or how it was overturned as I didn't have 5 or more until recently. At least the CDPHE left a way out of the 5 patient cap with the exceptional circumstances bit.

When push comes to shove I'm glad I have state protection from AM20 as a caregiver, whereas dispensaries are tolerated yet illegal. Let me simply clarify why. No mention of dispensaries (MMC) in AM20, HB1284 makes the distinction between MMC and caregiver. MMC is not in AM20 but caregiver is. Someone explain to me how an MMC is protected under AM20 if the legal definition of an MMC is not defined as a caregiver or a patient.

Crap Sky, you sure know how to get me started on a rant..

TAke the money and run..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZwLsvO6YTw

 

[sky high]

Rant away, my friend. It's what us old timers do...LOL.

Sadly...with a huge portion of the faux-patient-base riding the State's cock and frequenting the "Centers"...all we can do now is hang on and HOPE that our original rights to grow aren't in jeopardy after the DOR/Centers are done destroying the caregivership tag and filling each others's pockets. Sadly, it apppears these fuckers won't behappy till they make sure you don't have any meds.....other than ones you bought from them, that is. (that PM/mite/pesticide -free, $600 an ounce labelled stuff, of course, not that substandard caregiver-grown tainted shit)

BOHICA.

wot a mess.....

s h

 

[kuz]

It's an excuse to sell some fucking herb.

Dont blame the patient, blame the idiots who wrote 1284. Otherwise i agree with you. Really it was just an excuse for you also, right. You were growing it anyway, all you had to do was give it to your patients, no big deal if they get caught, big deal if you get caught though.


I wish I could make the 2,000,000 people that were born in or moved to this state in the last 40 years move out. Problem is they have as much right to be here as I do.