leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
ok, I'll bite. How do you keep the CEC levels high, along with the organic matter, if you take out compost? Are you saying pay for extra EWC? Or do you have something else that will be a substitute?

I would love your help with my soil next year. Should we do this through PM's? People could learn a thing or two if we make our own thread, or continue in this one?
Good question! Excellent observation.
Use a compost that is low in K. or no compost and use solely ewc. You are correct reducing the compost and solely using ewc will reduce the tcec.
Have seen a test come out at 10-17 cec without compost vs 21-30 cec with compost.

Fungal compost with low K at 16.5% and ewc 16.5% has put me right at 5% K with 21 tcec.
Another option if you can get it add quality topsoil at 10-15% to increase the CEC.


I am testing adding clay to a soil less mix to increase tcec. Real soil is sand silt and clay vs soil less being peat and then the rock dust/aeration adds some sand content.

Yes feel free to pm.
Will help to prevent any confusion while working out details/problems and also makes sure the instructions are clear

Also keep in mind NOT all inputs are not equal. details matter.
DTE neem cake vs ahimsa neem cake for one example.


Some debate over lighter soil and more volume or a bigger battery (higher cec).

I find a majority of growers only cover the chemical aspect (if even that) and are missing the big picture of the entire system.

Take this into consideration: the geological, the chemical, the biochemical and the biological performances by which the numerous streams of life take off from the soil and continue to flow.
We can test for a baseline for many of these variables.

Then monitor how things are progressing. Do not assume but actually monitor the entire system.

Soil biology, texture, c02 respiration, weak acid all will provide more data about what is happening in the soil. Melich 3 is a good start to see the savings account and get away from "growing blind". But there is more testing and tools available.

Just because it is in the soil does not mean the mineral is available to the plant and/or the biology is working to get minerals into the plant.

 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,629
638
I'll make a full admission that the math puts me off of trying to work *any* numbers. I really am bad at it, period.

But at this particular juncture in time, since I'm not even sure we're going to be at this property in 6mos, I'm not going to concern myself with soil.
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
I'll make a full admission that the math puts me off of trying to work *any* numbers. I really am bad at it, period.

But at this particular juncture in time, since I'm not even sure we're going to be at this property in 6mos, I'm not going to concern myself with soil.
It is very easy to make a mistake on math. Even using computers!
Thanks for sharing reminds me of an error I made.
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
Warning to all if doing a conversion from yards to acres or vice versa.

Double check your math. Make sure you are converting a cubic measurement to another cubic measurement.

Here is an potential error I found in converting yards to acres.

Look at converting yards to acres

acre-acre-foot.png


If I use the values on the left using yards my calculations will be incorrect.
But if I convert ac-foot to yards using the right table will be correct.



Source:
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_022760.pdf
to convert cubic feet to gallons.
cubic feet x 7.48=gallons
acre-foot is 43,560 cubic feet
acre-foot = 1613.3 cubic yards
acre-foot is 325,848 gallons
1 acre foot weights 4,000,000 lbs
1 square yard = 9 square feet
Acre-furrow-slice = one acre to a depth of 6 2/3 inches. +/- 2,000,000 lbs of soil.
Acre-foot = one acre to a depth of 12 inches. 4,000,000 lbs of soil.

Ok so if you calculated the above and made a mistake. Then make your soil using cups. You could end up even messing up a recipe even more.
Gotta account for the weight to be accurate.

Weight Vs Volume
Measuring cups is surprisingly inaccurate. Cups that should be the same volume often vary a lot depending on the material used. Worse, a lot of inaccuracy creeps into a recipe depending on what is being measured and who is doing the measurement. In my experience, the same recipe scaled multiple times can vary by as much as 10 % relative to the true weight of the ingredients. This is often the reason that people find that a particular recipe "fails" when they try to reproduce it—inaccuracies have crept in at every step. Working by weight is both faster and more accurate.


 
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2yds of nursery grade soil
24 bag of soil / FFOF-ROOTS ORGANIC - COCO
50lbs of roots organic worm castings
20lbs bat guano
25lbs of fish bone meal, azimite, kelp meal, oyster shell, blood meal
2 lbs epson salt
8oz of root magic (BPN) microhaizae
Some bio-ag humic acid
Heres my mix , no test yet gonna let it breakdown some, then get some testing down
 
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here is my mix this year per cubic foot. i also have liquid karama,roots trinity and extreme serene. i will be using bioag humic & silica powder,ful-power and down to earth humic acid granular in my soil at 1 cup per C.F. i got Sea-90 to use every 10 days on the advice of Sea-madien as well thanks SM =). i will do some top dressings as need with bat guano,dr earth vega and down to earth vegan mix.

33% Coast of maine bar harbor potting mix
33% Perlite
33% coast of maine lobster Compost/ worm power Ewc & supr green composted chicken manure

Nutrient amendments:
1cup of kelp meal
1 cup of stonington blend coast of maine plant food
1 cup of insect frass
1/2 cup neem meal
1/2 cup seabird guano


Mineral amendments:
2 cup basalt rock dust
1 cup oyster shell flour
1 cup gypsum
1 cup greensand
1/2 cup of Elemite
1/2 cup azomite
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
here is my mix this year per cubic foot. i also have liquid karama,roots trinity and extreme serene. i will be using bioag humic & silica powder,ful-power and down to earth humic acid granular in my soil at 1 cup per C.F. i got Sea-90 to use every 10 days on the advice of Sea-madien as well thanks SM =). i will do some top dressings as need with bat guano,dr earth vega and down to earth vegan mix.

33% Coast of maine bar harbor potting mix
33% Perlite
33% coast of maine lobster Compost/ worm power Ewc & supr green composted chicken manure

Nutrient amendments:
1cup of kelp meal
1 cup of stonington blend coast of maine plant food
1 cup of insect frass
1/2 cup neem meal
1/2 cup seabird guano


Mineral amendments:
2 cup basalt rock dust
1 cup oyster shell flour
1 cup gypsum
1 cup greensand
1/2 cup of Elemite
1/2 cup azomite
If you do some math on SOME of those inputs they are pretty excessive.

Excessive N with the neem cake, guano will put the P levels WAY up there and the greensand will add excess K.
Odds are there is plenty in the compost and other amendments.


1/2 cup per cubic foot of neem cake = NPK per acre.:
653.385 lbs N per acre.
108.89 lbs P per acre.
217.7 lbs K per acre


Adding the guano at that rate 1/2lb per cubic foot will add
5989.3625 lbs of phosphorus per acre ( P205) = 2635 lbs of P

Some soil analysis recommends up to 600lbs per acre of P.

That is without calculating the inputs from all your other amendments. Which are excessive.
Then add some top dressings to put you way over the top and create more imbalance.

Not getting into sodium and probably a lack of trace minerals.

Better to put on less than to put "more-on". Can always add more, but not as easy to take away.

Nutrient deficiencies and/or nutrient excesses cause pest / disease problems by themselves.

 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
2yds of nursery grade soil
24 bag of soil / FFOF-ROOTS ORGANIC - COCO
50lbs of roots organic worm castings
20lbs bat guano
25lbs of fish bone meal, azimite, kelp meal, oyster shell, blood meal
2 lbs epson salt
8oz of root magic (BPN) microhaizae
Some bio-ag humic acid
Heres my mix , no test yet gonna let it breakdown some, then get some testing down
Please do post up the test IF you get one.
 
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63
If you do some math on SOME of those inputs they are pretty excessive.

Excessive N with the neem cake, guano will put the P levels WAY up there and the greensand will add excess K.
Odds are there is plenty in the compost and other amendments.


1/2 cup per cubic foot of neem cake = NPK per acre.:
653.385 lbs N per acre.
108.89 lbs P per acre.
217.7 lbs K per acre


Adding the guano at that rate 1/2lb per cubic foot will add
5989.3625 lbs of phosphorus per acre ( P205) = 2635 lbs of P

Some soil analysis recommends up to 600lbs per acre of P.

That is without calculating the inputs from all your other amendments. Which are excessive.
Then add some top dressings to put you way over the top and create more imbalance.

Not getting into sodium and probably a lack of trace minerals.

Better to put on less than to put "more-on". Can always add more, but not as easy to take away.

Nutrient deficiencies and/or nutrient excesses cause pest / disease problems by themselves.
i used this mix last year and grew some awesome plants no pest or disease on them. the only thing different i added this year was the source of Ewc and compost. i just go with what the plants tell me they need once i set them out. what would u recommend i change to this then?
 
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IIRC, Bulldog11 pays less than $40 from Logan Labs. IIRC!

Sorry you broke yer quotes.

@leadsled is there a tool or a spreadsheet that could help the mathematically declined such as myself? Something that would allow us to plug in some numbers and make similar calculations?
im also mathematically declined lol so that would be really helpful. i can also adjust my amendments since i have not mixed stuff up yet this year. i am however gonna be building myself a few huglekulture beds this year so im gonna use alot of nitrogen on it to help speed up the wood rotting/composting process. im not gonna use these beds this year though bc the real beauty of the huglekulture beds is the 2nd year and beyond.

i was wanting to get ur guys thoughts on "Michael Astera" product he is the author of a book called "the ideal soil". here is the link to his product that he says will grow awesome plants with water only. http://soilminerals.com/Agricolas4-8-4_MainPage.htm
 
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If you do some math on SOME of those inputs they are pretty excessive.

Excessive N with the neem cake, guano will put the P levels WAY up there and the greensand will add excess K.
Odds are there is plenty in the compost and other amendments.


1/2 cup per cubic foot of neem cake = NPK per acre.:
653.385 lbs N per acre.
108.89 lbs P per acre.
217.7 lbs K per acre


Adding the guano at that rate 1/2lb per cubic foot will add
5989.3625 lbs of phosphorus per acre ( P205) = 2635 lbs of P

Some soil analysis recommends up to 600lbs per acre of P.

That is without calculating the inputs from all your other amendments. Which are excessive.
Then add some top dressings to put you way over the top and create more imbalance.

Not getting into sodium and probably a lack of trace minerals.

Better to put on less than to put "more-on". Can always add more, but not as easy to take away.

Nutrient deficiencies and/or nutrient excesses cause pest / disease problems by themselves.
what do u think about this mix:

1/2 Part Worm Power

1/2 Part Oly Mountain Fish Compost/lobster compost

1 Part Sphagnum Peat Moss

2/3 Part Pumice

1/3 Part Rice Hulls

5% Pre-Charged Bio Char

Nutrients:
Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot

Neem Cake @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot

Brix Blend Basalt @ 2 Cups Per Cubic Foot

Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

I also have Coast of Maine super soil mix called "stonington blend organic super soil"(1.5 c.f) im gonna add only 2 cups of stonington plant food,1/2 cup of neem meal and 1/2 cup insect frass. check these links and let me know your thoughts on this as well led thanks.

http://shop.coastofmaine.com/products/stonington-blend-super-soil
http://shop.coastofmaine.com/products/lobster-and-kelp-plant-food
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
Do you have a estamation on price for test
@GrowingGreen
I got the exact cost.
$30.00 for the base test plus the cost of shipping.
usps flat rate box is $5.95 for example.

$25.00
The Standard Test package includes pH, organic matter, base saturation, total exchange capacity, Mehlich III ex
tractable sulfur, phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, boron, iron, manganese, copper, zinc, aluminum
Recommend to pay an additional $5.00 to add on testing for : EC, Mo, Co, Se, Si.

Which then brings the total for the test up to $30.00
That is the basic "strong acid" test to get started and to stop growing blind. That does not include testing for Nitrogen.
Please ask if you want to test for N.
Or
if you want instructions on how to take the sample, and where to send in the test?
What to post up to get a soil recommendation .
Ask if you got any questions?????
My statement applies to anyone reading this thread and wants to participate.
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
Coo can you send the address & info to me
Here is how to take the test:

Sample the soil from at least 5 different locations. if you can take more that is better for a representation of your soil.
Use a plastic cup or shovel to scoop it up.

Place all the samples into a bucket.
DO NOT use a container made of metal!
Mix well.
Take out 2 cups and put in zip lock baggie.
Seal it well. Write your name, email and sample name on the baggie with a permanent marker.

Go to http://loganlabs.com/doc/submissionworksheet.pdf, download and print soil submission worksheet.
At bottom of form write Base Test Plus EC, Mo,Co, Se, Si
Example name for sample: Soil Mix 1.
Instructions for filling out worksheet are here:

http://www.loganlabs.com/doc/submissionworksheet.pdf
Ask if you have any questions!

Note: The first time you work with Logan Labs you have to pay upfront. Additional tests they will bill you after doing the test.
Make check to logan labs for $30.00
Mail Worksheet and soil sample to:
Logan Labs
P.O. Box 326
Lakeview, OH 43331

After logan labs completes the test. They will email you back the soil test result.
I can then give you recommendations for amendments based on your soil test.
That is the bare minimum to know what is going down with the soil chemistry for long term release.


Are you using soil less???? Peat based or coco. no top soil in it.

To account for a lightweight soil based on peat or coco coir and to make the most accurate amendment recommendations.

Take it a step further for accuracy!
weigh the soil to calculate the actual weight of your soil less.

Step to account for soil weight:
Ideally you should weigh a one gallon bucket of soil. Take a one gallon bucket and lightly pack it with soil. Weigh the soil and write down the weight.
Dry the soil out. Do this in sun or dry in the oven at 250f.
Write down the weight of one gallon of soil. Post up the weight of the soil moist and then dry.

For me to make a soil amendment recommendation I need your:
1. Soil Test.
2. Soil Weight
3. Size of your containers, beds or farm.
4. Any amendments you already have and want to use.

I will then give you a free soil amendment recommendation in this thread. Unless it is against the TOS??
The normal fee for this service ranges from $30.00 to $100.00. All depends on who you hire.

Trying to help others get on top of using math to calculate there soil mixes. Then get superior results. Generally organic growers are behind the curve and do not follow the latest practices.


People growing in hydro and using water soluble salts use math and do calulations for recipes.
They share recipes based on math. The same math can be applied to organics and soil/soil less.


Yet I see all these mixes that appear to be some frankenstein recipes that are not done based on calculating the inputs used.


Hope that helps you and anyone else reading the thread. Start testing and stop growing blind.
 

leadsled

GrowRU
2,117
263
i used this mix last year and grew some awesome plants no pest or disease on them. the only thing different i added this year was the source of Ewc and compost. i just go with what the plants tell me they need once i set them out. what would u recommend i change to this then?
Are you mixing soil growing in it once, and throwing it out???
Organics inputs can be water soluble and insoluble. Some are released quickly and others take more time.


I want to optimize things and be proactive.
Can measure things and then act based on the measurements.
Health care not sick care.

Is there a method to your approach of adding amendments?
Make mix: grow plants. Did they appear deficient? or did well? Than adjust mix accordingly?
Is there a a measurement to gauge the performance of what you are doing?
Is the test based on quality or quantity?

Qualative examples:
Soil testing, physical, chemical and biological.
Plant testing. brix ph ec, thc/cbd/cbn/
Quantative examples: Yield along with other values can be measured and tracked.

Are things getting better or worse?

You asked what you should change. for starters if you are not going to test your soil.
Do not use so much guano and reduce the neem cake.

I recommend you do a soil test on the base. Then add amendments based off what is lacking.
There are studies that show what nutrients are removed by plants over the course of a season.
Add the nutrient levels based on these values.
Hope that helps.

 
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