Questions on yields

mrbong73 · Apr 26, 2011

Not trying to cause controversy or start an argument at all. I guess my main point is that to give organics a fair trial it would help to set up a situation for a better chance at success. If you would like to move away from hydro store nutrients (not directed at anyone) the best way is to set up a good soil mix that is capable of providing everything the plants want. Or as close as you can.
Dextr0: an option for bloom booster would be to top dress with fish bone meal and sul po mag for P and K as well as mg and sulphur. Having a myco infection will help in P uptake as well.
mrb

true grit · Apr 26, 2011

dextr0 said:
Its not a random mix though homeboy its what he worked on to eliminate variables. Hes telling dude do this, and saying unless u dont know about plants and how to boost them, u cannot go wrong with this mix. It keeps insects at bay eliminating that. Puts enough food for microbes and plants to live together and beneficiary without being specific. Basically you just water ( or tea for the ones who have to) then work your boosters. If you feel its not putting out. Unless he wants to clarify that.
Im kind of confused on what we use as boosters in bloom in organics. Im thinking foliar feeding but this is me thinking. Anyway...
But I think what were are all saying is a happy plant will produce. Sick and underfed will not. Get this mix and work with it. Its a very good start.

Doesn't matter if its a random mix or one tried and true- they are not going to work the same for everyone. Period. And honestly using a super soil/ammended soil facilitates ease but limits control due to whats there. not everything in a soil will be released or fully active on the first run. Water hardness/ph values/etc change grow to grow. I have done super soils/organic mixes/etc- and from growing coco/hydro you simply DO NOT have the same control. Yes its nice to only water and get good results, but that does not mean you are maximizing your plants. General super soil works on plants because it has whats needed, but doesn't mean you are giving the most. As well as the fact, if the plant does not like something in the mix (which from experience I have seen) you are still stuck with teh mix.

Plants using bottled nutes and underfed does not always equal sick or not producing. It comes down to genetics, Ive seen outstanding genetics get a SHIT run and still outproduce most cats growing well from seed. Just the reality...and in turn doing well with that cut produces amazing results. Hence suggesting the Chemdog D and starting there.

Ive heard that using the right mycos/benes etc help with pests- I don't believe it. If you are good gardener, those things should be in check and you shouldn't be relying on plant microbial life for pest help and its doesnt help with mites, aphids or pm. Does it make a healthier plant? Yes, but environment is environment. Get your climate/vpd/etc in check and learn your plants.

What kind of boosters are you looking for? P/K boosts? HPK and HP2 are fine. So is making a guano tea or top dressing.

dextr0 · Apr 26, 2011

Hes helping the dude by telling him to add the things that will repel almost all the invasive insects in his grow room. Try the mix and see if u get bugs.

dextr0 · Apr 26, 2011

Thank you mrbong for not killing and sharing what u know.

true grit · Apr 26, 2011

dextr0 said:
Hes helping the dude by telling him to add the things that will repel almost all the invasive insects in his grow room. Try the mix and see if u get bugs.

And I'm telling you there is nothing special about that mix to fight invasive insects- its just a good organic mix. The grower controls insect infestation, but yes having healthy plants helps. Kinda like folks thinking silicates will help with insects, disease, etc... yeah if you believe the labels. We are talking actual experience here. I've seen/used soil mixes, seen organics/mycos/benes run cleaner than most, etc- and guess what- they are all still as susceptible to insects/disease as any other grow that a grower "comes and goes" out of. Mites, aphids, molds, etc don't just pop up outta no where because you aren't organically sound :evilgrin0040:

just the real which is what I'm sure Joker is looking for. Kinda like half the "kickass organic grows" that arent that kick ass and product isn't anything more than organic. Just keeping it real.

dextr0 · Apr 26, 2011

neem?

true grit · Apr 26, 2011

And? neem dont do much brother. thats why its on the mild side of control and effectiveness. definitely not something to rely on. Still boils down to the grower and in/outs. But that is completely off topic- back to yields and organics.

waayne · Apr 26, 2011

true grit thanks for pointing out that milder soil mix's allow for more control on the part of the grower>>some strains just do better with regular feedings and are not the best candidates for a H2o only Super Soil mix...
I like to put touchy strains in mild mix's and then I have control
of the EC level better and can feed as I see the need.....
Some strains can't tolerate the high EC levels of some
"Super Soil" mix's....
I would love to always brew teas but the reality for me is I'm usually too busy and that's where Age Old comes into play ;)

dextr0 · Apr 26, 2011

True try the mix. This is not super-soil. Super soil takes into account alot of good things. But what about the insects.

Dude gave u a super-soil mix + insecticide. Not to everything. Common homeboy u right we cant do that. But that mix, Its what that dude needs. Dont say its crazy till u know for sure. Im sure he worked on it and if u asked nicely, or maybe did the research yourself u would find more then u think. Especially from that little word that doesn't do much by itself. Neem. Shes a beast.

U gotta tame her.

Peace, love, respects.....

mrbong73 · Apr 27, 2011

Nothing beats a good IPM program for handling bugs in the garden. I wish I could say there is a magic bullet with organics but there is not.
By adding neem seed meal along with crab/shrimp meal into the soil you can provide some natural agents that may help with keeping some of these pests at bay.

My per pot yield this round is looking like it could be quite nice for an og strain. I grow in 3 gal smart pots and only have 3' of total growing height. That includes the pot. I rely on LST and kelp foliars to keep them short and bushy.
My set up runs 2 400w HPS for around 90 watts/sf with co2.

Good luck Joker and others interested in organics. Hope you give it a real chance.

mrb

true grit · Apr 27, 2011

waayne said:
true grit thanks for pointing out that milder soil mix's allow for more control on the part of the grower>>some strains just do better with regular feedings and are not the best candidates for a H2o only Super Soil mix...
I like to put touchy strains in mild mix's and then I have control
of the EC level better and can feed as I see the need.....
Some strains can't tolerate the high EC levels of some
"Super Soil" mix's....
I would love to always brew teas but the reality for me is I'm usually too busy and that's where Age Old comes into play ;)

No doubt. Ive had some that just plain burnt, or didn't like levels at certain points in flower. If you are a grower who is used to adapting/reacting/learning your plants, it sucks to have to sit back and wait/flush/or just take notes for the next run. Thats why this run for me will be normal soil/Age Old. Like I said prior, some of my best bud was with sub's supersoil mix, but it was also some of the bud i was most frustrated growing due to lack of control.

dextr0 said:
True try the mix. This is not super-soil. Super soil takes into account alot of good things. But what about the insects.

Dude gave u a super-soil mix + insecticide. Not to everything. Common homeboy u right we cant do that. But that mix, Its what that dude needs. Dont say its crazy till u know for sure. Im sure he worked on it and if u asked nicely, or maybe did the research yourself u would find more then u think. Especially from that little word that doesn't do much by itself. Neem. Shes a beast.

U gotta tame her.

Peace, love, respects.....

It doesn't need to take in account insects. Growers on point have that under control, or have measures in place for that. No need to do extra work mixing soil that will still need to be fed, or thats too hot, especially for organic learning/maximizing. Get a basic soil, pre-treat it for pests at up pot (good thing to do of late) and pick a simple ass organic nute to learn on. And as exampled by Waayne- sometimes less is more if you have sick genetics. No need to do the extra work if you don't have to. Done talkin bout neem, I understand its organic, but thats about it. Def not a beast, its whats folk use when they don't want to use more effective chems, which is understandable.

dextr0 · Apr 27, 2011

U want me to prove u wrong?

primeform · Apr 27, 2011

true grit said:
And I'm telling you there is nothing special about that mix to fight invasive insects- its just a good organic mix. The grower controls insect infestation, but yes having healthy plants helps. Kinda like folks thinking silicates will help with insects, disease, etc... yeah if you believe the labels. We are talking actual experience here. I've seen/used soil mixes, seen organics/mycos/benes run cleaner than most, etc- and guess what- they are all still as susceptible to insects/disease as any other grow that a grower "comes and goes" out of. Mites, aphids, molds, etc don't just pop up outta no where because you aren't organically sound :evilgrin0040:

just the real which is what I'm sure Joker is looking for. Kinda like half the "kickass organic grows" that arent that kick ass and product isn't anything more than organic. Just keeping it real.

I would say you dont have enough experience with beneficial bacteria and fungi if you dont think they have an affect on disease. Also spraying anything on them especially nutrients have been shown to ward off insects to a certain extent. And healthy plants just like humans immune systems makes a huge difference in which pathogens it is susceptable to. And actually if your "organically sound" you will have alot less of these pests around because of the beneficial bacteria and fungi "out competing" the pathogens in your soil and on the surfaces of your plants and leaves.

All that said when your talking about a plant worth hundreds to thousands of dollars having a good pesticide and systematic fungi control programs are a must. Simply spraying spinosad and rotating with another natural insecticide like rosemary oil can go a long way to organically solving all issues. Using floramite rotation against bad infestations. Also bannermax/ eagle 20 right before flowering can go along ways to having 0 mold issues. Finally using Green Cure in final stages of flowering if any pm or bud mold is present can go a long way to suppressing it without ruining your medicine.

But to say that organically sound system and beneficial bacteria and fungi are
not helpful is just wrong, scientifically.

true grit · Apr 27, 2011

dextr0 said:
U want me to prove u wrong?

I really dont care. I said im done talking about neem. thats not what this post is about.

primeform said:
I would say you dont have enough experience with beneficial bacteria and fungi if you dont think they have an affect on disease. Also spraying anything on them especially nutrients have been shown to ward off insects to a certain extent. And healthy plants just like humans immune systems makes a huge difference in which pathogens it is susceptable to. And actually if your "organically sound" you will have alot less of these pests around because of the beneficial bacteria and fungi "out competing" the pathogens in your soil and on the surfaces of your plants and leaves.

All that said when your talking about a plant worth hundreds to thousands of dollars having a good pesticide and systematic fungi control programs are a must. Simply spraying spinosad and rotating with another natural insecticide like rosemary oil can go a long way to organically solving all issues. Using floramite rotation against bad infestations. Also bannermax/ eagle 20 right before flowering can go along ways to having 0 mold issues. Finally using Green Cure in final stages of flowering if any pm or bud mold is present can go a long way to suppressing it without ruining your medicine.

But to say that organically sound system and beneficial bacteria and fungi are
not helpful is just wrong, scientifically.

Not saying its not helpful. Im saying its not the be all end all. I speak from experience, not from theoreticals. The preventatives you mentioned to avoid any problems is the more logical approach.

Everyone trying to prove a point to me needs to re-read. I said benes and mycos are fine and make a healthier plant, but thats not what keeps a room pest/mold free. Like I said time and again- does it help? Sure. But its not worth relying on. If pest/mold are a concern work on your environment and your cleanliness in/out of your room.

And AGAIN that is NOT WHAT THIS TOPIC is about.

primeform · Apr 27, 2011

ok to address the topic not to be rude... I find that the only way to duplicate the root systems of hydro is to use air root pruning. 4" air pots are amazing. it really doesnt matter what size of pot your using with conventional pots because the roots will go straight to the bottom and coil. You will never fill the top 1/3 of your pots with roots just wasting soil. 3-5 gallon smart pots would be a nice end game and give them long enough veg time for the roots to reach the outsides of the pot to be effective.

cant duplicate the amazing yields without the amazing roots.

primeform · Apr 27, 2011

waayne said:
true grit thanks for pointing out that milder soil mix's allow for more control on the part of the grower>>some strains just do better with regular feedings and are not the best candidates for a H2o only Super Soil mix...
I like to put touchy strains in mild mix's and then I have control
of the EC level better and can feed as I see the need.....
Some strains can't tolerate the high EC levels of some
"Super Soil" mix's....
I would love to always brew teas but the reality for me is I'm usually too busy and that's where Age Old comes into play ;)

What is your feeding regiment when you use Age Old waayne? love how your stuff turns out bro.

waayne · Apr 27, 2011

primeform said:
What is your feeding regiment when you use Age Old waayne? love how your stuff turns out bro.

In veg 1/4 oz -1/2oz per gallon every 6-9 days.
In flower 1/2oz - 7/8oz per gallon every 6-9 days
I also use GO's Cal Mag+ 1 - 3 tsp per gallon
This is ball park >>depends on the strain
Usually I try to transplant often enough in veg so that I don't have to feed much if at all.
In flower I transition gradually from Grow to Bloom
after they are flowering pretty good....
I stop using Cal Mag about 4 weeks before harvest.

Seamaiden · Apr 27, 2011

true grit said:
Yeah the biggest part for me was acknowledging to myself that even though coco is so simple, fail proof and i throw crazy dank- the organic was simply different and to my smells- what id prefer. just stanky.

Not to mention, depending on the scenario (OD or GH) the plants can practically grow themselves. This is how it went for my OD last year.

true grit said:
Are you veggin with t-5s? I gave up all my 1k MH's and only use t5s now. I often even turn those to half bulb stregth for veg..so about 200-300w. 4 of those will veg a full 10x10 and only use 1600w max. like i said i use mine half strength until ready to flip then turn on all t5's.

Actually, I use a combination of shop lights (T12s) just like I did over my reef tank, and CFLs to fill in the ends for vegging, and then when they go into the flower room I use a combo of MH (400W overdriven to 600W, kills 'em with a quickness) and HPS for the first two weeks of stretch. I recently received a 4-light T5, but am planning a big clean-out of the area and so I'm not setting it up. I've also been rethinking my entire approach, what kind of life I want to live, etcetera, so for now the indoor is mostly shut down except for some vegging girls who are going to be mothered and/or put outside.

true grit said:
though i don't believe there is a focus factor on either/or for yield vs. quality/flavor, i understand what you are saying. my coco never sacrificed smell/taste/quality or yield, But i can honestly say it is a "different" product than my organics. And like I said organics yields were pretty much the same. think it just comes down to preference. some folks like my coco buds and some like organics. Just depends on crowd and palette.

That may be, but to date I haven't been able to get the flavor from the coco grows that I have from the soil grows. And when running soil indoors (remembering I'm in Cali with an astronomical power rate) I didn't get anywhere nearly the yield I did with coco. Both products are popular, but since I'm the one doing the work I have to make a decision about what I'm going to focus on. I've decided I want to focus on growing weed that *I* like first, that others like second. That means it's got to please the palate. Biggest problem for me with that is that mine's often different from others.

I've also noticed that non-growers just don't have much of a palate at all. They just wanna get high, so Indi-doms that lock their asses to the couch are de rigueur and who cares what it tastes like?

Anyone else ever notice that?

true grit · Apr 27, 2011

Yeah for sure put that T5 to use. I've vegged with everything from shop lights (for clones), to cfls for veg cabs, to MH's for tents/rooms and now T5s for everything and am finding them superior for sure. Just way more efficient on power and heat and seems they don't even have to be full force to get great veg times. This run I went from t5 to mh and was stoked at no real shock from excess 800w's or so. lol. But they will definitely help on power and imo are as effective or more so than the MH...

And yeah I understand what you are saying and its hard to explain to folks. Only way I can explain IMO or synopsis is this- organic is raw smells and natural flavor/smell terpenoids. With chems you get super dank smell, etc but it seems to me the chemically designed feed activates a more "floral" aroma of the terpenes if you will. I can't say its "sweeter" smell just more floral and aromatic than danky. Not sure if that makes sense. I like both, but prefer a danker raw smell/taste imo, so i feel ya. I'm actually doing some coco with organics this run as well, we'll see how that goes as far as terpenes/yield/quickness etc.

And yes, noticed non heady smokers just want couchlock.

ganja_guy52 · Apr 27, 2011

great plants waayne, quick questions i want to try those smart pots (20 gal.), and i wanted to know how much water do you use per pot & how do you control your ph??
thanx

Questions on yields

Questions on yields

mrbong73

true grit

dextr0

dextr0

true grit

dextr0

true grit

waayne

dextr0

mrbong73

true grit

dextr0

primeform

true grit

primeform

primeform

waayne

Seamaiden

Living dead girl

true grit

ganja_guy52

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