Ron paul for president

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R

RMCG

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Oh, I love this sort of thing. Let's get started, shall we?

Agreed, but there are those extreme Libs who essentially call for the elimination of government and expect *everyone* to operate by the same rules and keep the same boundaries. Which reminds me, Aqualab's ad here on the Farm? They've spelled it "boundries" and it's driving me up the fucking wall.


Hahahaha I thought I was the only one that noticed that banner! I hit refresh so it goes away as fast as possible. Spelling mistakes drive me NUTS.

What you described is most definitely not the 'Libertarian Vision', there needs to be a court system to decide who has been wronged (constitutional rights violated). It would not become a 'lawless' land, just a lot less laws of minutae. You don't need 100,000 rules defining how stealing is wrong and unjust.

It should not only not change, but other parties/political paradigms should adhere to the idea as well, in my opinion.

In my attempt to be brief, I left out a lot. Some areas can and perhaps should be privatized, others, not so much. We live in an interesting time, also, in that when these ideas were first bandied about we didn't have mega-corporations to contend with. I think most folks were thinking in terms of the types of businesses that America was founded upon--smaller businesses, some privately owned.

They absolutely should 'adhere to the idea', considering they are SWORN TO UPHOLD it! ie Nancy Pelosi's scoffing at the question "Where in the Constitution does it grant you the power to control Healthcare?" and her response? "Are you serious?"...

Hell, I think half of them mix up the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, they certainly don't carry around the pocket versions LIKE THEY SHOULD. I am sure we are now on some 'list', but certain political members have received numerous shipments of 'reference' material over past few years from my GF and I.

So what is wrong with 'mega corporations'? Google offers wifi broadband (infrastructure and service) FOR FREE to several cities in California. I don't think they didn't know about mega-corporations during that time, as there were lots of global companies then. How many mercantiles, shipping and trading companies, etc. These were the Sears and Roebucks and the Fedex's of the day. Paradigms shift, economics change, public perception decreases and these large corps fail, being undercut by the little guy who has a better, faster idea.

Hmm... Well, Blackwater taught us that harsh lesson re: privatization of law enforcement. What I think we've lost with government-based LE are the checks and balances. In fact, I believe we've lost a lot of checks and balances.

Yes, unfortunately Blackwater was a harsh example, but it was in a foreign country, during wartime, not a true 'Libertarian Experiment'.

Same here, grew up with an all-volunteer FD and currently live in a county where we've only just created a new tax base so we can pay a fire chief and one or two full time firefighters.



That said, I am all for abolishing the IRS. I don't believe we need to levy taxes so heavily or in the manner we do. I know, not believe, KNOW that the IRS is an entity unto itself, subject to no laws of the land or the checks and balances put in place by our representatives, and that NO ONE is safe from them. No one.


Historically speaking, the US's most BOOMING times were when citizens did not pay ANY or very low TAXES... ie Roaring 20's

Cato has great info/graphs, etc on the Mellon Tax cuts.

While I abhor paying FEDERAL taxes as I am not involved in interstate commerce, a very LOW tax rate will get and keep the economy rolling. Simplifying the tax code actually generates more money.

Heh, you, me and my husband could go on one hell of a tear about the DoE and the harm done during Jimmy's term when that was created. Remember, I'm in California and both my kids were 'educated' in this system, too.

It's worse than that. Our government has created a situation where it pays for the large corporations that we are now too heavily reliant upon for work and goods to take their manufacturing bases overseas. This is a problem.

That should also mean that our government protects more than a corporation's bottom line. The government, our government, is us, and should be on our side. But it's not. How'd that come to be? Lobbies.

Again, that is people in 'power' thinking they can be the 'invisible hand' of the markets vs letting free markets make micro corrections on its own. They think we are dumb and they are smart so they get to be the marionette. This government intrusion (for 'our own good') can be molested in such a way that they play favorites. This is NOT the governments job. But because we allow them to intrude in other places, they can overstep and intrude where they want. Why do they get to decide who can play the game? hell, they are even deciding the winners now...


Yes, I have. But, like the song says, if you want to have cities you've got to build roads. That is and should be the role of the government. If we leave it only to occur on the local level, though, then you'll have people like myself living in areas with a primarily elderly population who can't afford to keep roads up, let alone build them in the first place. And so, we have a lot of private dirt and gravel roads up here, we have a lot of people who live off-grid and who are on their own when the storms roll through.

If its primarily an elderly population, then the school budget would be nil. That is up to the state and local government and town planners. They can assess whatever direct tax on gasoline and diesel to pay for the STATE infrastructure of roadways.

I was mentioning the 'federal' infrastructure of 'Interstates'. I still believe those can be better, faster and cheaper that how the government is handling it, esp if it were owned by a 'mega corp'. For example, my state got a bunch of 'Obama' infrastructure money to do work on highways. They decided to tear up a 2 year old on-ramp and redo it, just so they didn't 'lose' the money...

We happen to live on a private road that is not maintained by the government. Portions of it we've been able to afford to repair, but since we can't get all neighbors on board with creating a trust account that we'd pay into annually (or whatever, we need a road repair kitty is my point) then we can only hit the worst sections. What has ended up happening is that a few neighbors are paying for the road repairs and bearing the majority of the burden, while EVERYONE gets to enjoy the road. This is absolutely unfair, some people are gaining use and enjoyment of something vital that they're not chipping in for. Using taxes and government alleviates this problem.

On one hand that seems it could be a workable solution. However, on the other hand it leaves us with the distinct possibility that only those localities that can afford to pay for these things having them. Then what? We are a whole nation, states united, ostensibly. See my post above about my neighborhood road. Worse yet, try driving the one section that seriously needs repair but won't be being repaired anytime soon.

I am familiar with 'private roads' as I came here from a very rural part of the NorthEast. But that is not what I am talking about. You have a 'non-maintained' road.

Who 'owns' your private road? Which of your neighbors?

All of them? one of them? How about you buy it, fix it up and levy a charge/toll for them to drive on it? There is no 'kitty' as that is socialist behavior.

Ahhh... well, seeing as how my husband works for the local phone company, which is also the local ISP and cable provider, we can discuss this stuff. Remember, I'm in a rural area, and right now the federal government has granted our local CLEC (all rural CLECs/ISPs) monies to bring inet services to those areas that are underserved. Up here in the Sierra that means mostly pushing a WIFI infrastructure, which is what my husband has been building out. In fact, his WIFI network has now outpaced both cable modem and DSL installs for his company. My point is that the government has helped those big boys roll out the broadband, they didn't do it all on their own.

But at what cost? IF the local LEC, ISP, cable provider did not see a pay off or sound investment, they chose not to do it for a reason, the government on the other hand does not care about the bottom line, as they don't have to answer to anyone. If those individuals were so smart, they would have created competition for your ISP/Cable company and cleaned up on service fees to the residents that used the service.

Oh my God! California DMV? :giggle

Our local post office has gone with subcontractors for deliveries. On a regular basis we do not receive important mail, and then might receive it with a note written on it (if the neighbor bothers, of course) "delivered to wrong address." It was better, MUCH better, when it was all-government employees.

Not a good comparison as the 'overall organization' is still the government, those subs are held to 'government standards', not private. A better comparison would be Fedex, DHL, UPS, hell even speedy carriers.

And, all that said, another one of my least favorite businesses to do business with are motorcycle repair shops. WTF is up with these prima donna mechanics who think their shit doesn't stink and they hold the golden key to repairing your bike? Assholes, overcharging, high-fiving motherfuckers. Private businesses who don't want my business. And don't even get me started on the gym we visited yesterday!


Yep, but that is the GREAT thing about private businesses! You can find another one. Or if that's the only shop in town, someone can make some competition for them and put them out of business. We talk about it frequently in my household regarding (human and animal) hospitals, we all know of 'good ones' and 'bad ones', what happens when there are only 'government ones'?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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If its primarily an elderly population, then the school budget would be nil. That is up to the state and local government and town planners. They can assess whatever direct tax on gasoline and diesel to pay for the STATE infrastructure of roadways.
Yes, but that doesn't cover these private roads. The people who live on and in such neighborhoods must then come up with solutions for themselves. Some neighborhoods can do it, and do a great job of it. Others, like mine, seem to have too many people who can't keep up with their mortgage, are living hand-to-mouth, or, for whatever reason, are unwilling or unable to help pay for upkeep and maintenance. When it's neglected and it snows you can't get in or out of your home.
I am familiar with 'private roads' as I came here from a very rural part of the NorthEast. But that is not what I am talking about. You have a 'non-maintained' road.

Who 'owns' your private road? Which of your neighbors?
We all do, the roads are guaranteed easements, ingress and egress. You're right, it's non-maintained, and this is proving to be a real problem.
All of them? one of them? How about you buy it, fix it up and levy a charge/toll for them to drive on it? There is no 'kitty' as that is socialist behavior.
Please try not to label in such a manner. If it's agreed upon to work together in such a manner, then that doesn't automatically make it socialist. But, playing along, let's say it does, since it's difficult to come up with $10K-$20K a pop to repair just a section of road, then what's wrong with everyone agreeing to pay into an account from which repair funds would be drawn?

And with that, you've hit precisely upon my self-proclaimed label of "moderate Libertarian", because I believe the Libertarian paradigm actually allows for people of a given group to come together and agree to do something, together, that's mutually beneficial.
But at what cost? IF the local LEC, ISP, cable provider did not see a pay off or sound investment, they chose not to do it for a reason...
Which leaves people in low density population areas or poor areas shit out of luck, doesn't it? That would mean that, because I live in a rural county that just doesn't have enough people, I can't even hope to be served in certain ways, i.e. telephony, mail, ISP, television services outside of air broadcast. Not even radio waves really make it through these mountains. This is precisely why the government began guaranteeing things like mail delivery (rural free delivery, yes?) and telephony, and now they're backing building an internet infrastructure that will serve, say, the Navajo Nation in the Four Corners area. People who are otherwise un- and underserved by The Big Boys, i.e. corporations that are driven only by a profit model.

We've got to keep humans in the picture here, again, moderate Libertarianism.
the government on the other hand does not care about the bottom line, as they don't have to answer to anyone. If those individuals were so smart, they would have created competition for your ISP/Cable company and cleaned up on service fees to the residents that used the service.
This is where checks and balances are required for those services the government provides. I am not and do not advocate a communist or completely socialist model, but I've also spent a few years learning human behavior. We are fucked up on the whole. We cannot be trusted, we are dishonest, we are selfish, some of us incredibly so, and so we require self-checks and balances. This is what government provides.
Not a good comparison as the 'overall organization' is still the government, those subs are held to 'government standards', not private. A better comparison would be Fedex, DHL, UPS, hell even speedy carriers.
I can't say as I'm entirely happy with them as service providers and more often than not, choose to use good ol' USPS. Why? Because, I get better service and so vote with my dollars.
Yep, but that is the GREAT thing about private businesses! You can find another one. Or if that's the only shop in town, someone can make some competition for them and put them out of business. We talk about it frequently in my household regarding (human and animal) hospitals, we all know of 'good ones' and 'bad ones', what happens when there are only 'government ones'?
Yes, we just happen to live in an area with a dearth of businesses, let alone good business.
 
R

RMCG

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I, Pencil

By Leonard E. Read
I am a lead pencil—the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.
Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that’s all I do.
You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery —more so than a tree or a sunset or even a flash of lightning. But, sadly, I am taken for granted by those who use me, as if I were a mere incident and without background. This supercilious attitude relegates me to the level of the commonplace. This is a species of the grievous error in which mankind cannot too long persist without peril. For, the wise G. K. Chesterton observed, “We are perishing for want of wonder, not for want of wonders.”
I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe, a claim I shall attempt to prove. In fact, if you can understand me—no, that’s too much to ask of anyone—if you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing. I have a profound lesson to teach. And I can teach this lesson better than can an automobile or an airplane or a mechanical dishwasher because—well, because I am seemingly so simple.
Simple? Yet, not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me. This sounds fantastic, doesn’t it? Especially when it is realized that there are about one and one-half billion of my kind produced in the U.S.A. each year.
Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye—there’s some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.
Innumerable Antecedents

Just as you cannot trace your family tree back very far, so is it impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents. But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.
My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!
The logs are shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California. Can you imagine the individuals who make flat cars and rails and railroad engines and who construct and install the communication systems incidental thereto? These legions are among my antecedents.
Consider the millwork in San Leandro. The cedar logs are cut into small, pencil-length slats less than one-fourth of an inch in thickness. These are kiln dried and then tinted for the same reason women put rouge on their faces. People prefer that I look pretty, not a pallid white. The slats are waxed and kiln dried again. How many skills went into the making of the tint and the kilns, into supplying the heat, the light and power, the belts, motors, and all the other things a mill requires? Sweepers in the mill among my ancestors? Yes, and included are the men who poured the concrete for the dam of a Pacific Gas & Electric Company hydroplant which supplies the mill’s power!
Don’t overlook the ancestors present and distant who have a hand in transporting sixty carloads of slats across the nation.
Once in the pencil factory—$4,000,000 in machinery and building, all capital accumulated by thrifty and saving parents of mine—each slat is given eight grooves by a complex machine, after which another machine lays leads in every other slat, applies glue, and places another slat atop—a lead sandwich, so to speak. Seven brothers and I are mechanically carved from this “wood-clinched” sandwich.
My “lead” itself—it contains no lead at all—is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon [Sri Lanka]. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth—and the harbor pilots.
The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow—animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions—as from a sausage grinder—cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.
My cedar receives six coats of lacquer. Do you know all the ingredients of lacquer? Who would think that the growers of castor beans and the refiners of castor oil are a part of it? They are. Why, even the processes by which the lacquer is made a beautiful yellow involve the skills of more persons than one can enumerate!
Observe the labeling. That’s a film formed by applying heat to carbon black mixed with resins. How do you make resins and what, pray, is carbon black?
My bit of metal—the ferrule—is brass. Think of all the persons who mine zinc and copper and those who have the skills to make shiny sheet brass from these products of nature. Those black rings on my ferrule are black nickel. What is black nickel and how is it applied? The complete story of why the center of my ferrule has no black nickel on it would take pages to explain.
Then there’s my crowning glory, inelegantly referred to in the trade as “the plug,” the part man uses to erase the errors he makes with me. An ingredient called “factice” is what does the erasing. It is a rubber-like product made by reacting rapeseed oil from the Dutch East Indies [Indonesia] with sulfur chloride. Rubber, contrary to the common notion, is only for binding purposes. Then, too, there are numerous vulcanizing and accelerating agents. The pumice comes from Italy; and the pigment which gives “the plug” its color is cadmium sulfide.
No One Knows

Does anyone wish to challenge my earlier assertion that no single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me?
Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. Now, you may say that I go too far in relating the picker of a coffee berry in far-off Brazil and food growers elsewhere to my creation; that this is an extreme position. I shall stand by my claim. There isn’t a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field—paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.
Here is an astounding fact: Neither the worker in the oil field nor the chemist nor the digger of graphite or clay nor any who mans or makes the ships or trains or trucks nor the one who runs the machine that does the knurling on my bit of metal nor the president of the company performs his singular task because he wants me. Each one wants me less, perhaps, than does a child in the first grade. Indeed, there are some among this vast multitude who never saw a pencil nor would they know how to use one. Their motivation is other than me. Perhaps it is something like this: Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.
No Master Mind

There is a fact still more astounding: The absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.
It has been said that “only God can make a tree.” Why do we agree with this? Isn’t it because we realize that we ourselves could not make one? Indeed, can we even describe a tree? We cannot, except in superficial terms. We can say, for instance, that a certain molecular configuration manifests itself as a tree. But what mind is there among men that could even record, let alone direct, the constant changes in molecules that transpire in the life span of a tree? Such a feat is utterly unthinkable!
I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies—millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human masterminding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.
The above is what I meant when writing, “If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing.” For, if one is aware that these know-hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand— that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive master-minding—then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.
Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn’t know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation’s mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of faith in free people—in the unawareness that millions of tiny know-hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity—the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental “masterminding.”
Testimony Galore

If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men and women can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it’s all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person’s home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one’s range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard—halfway around the world—for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!
The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society’s legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.
***
 
joeca1i

joeca1i

708
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Heres the video

video did'nt come out on my last post,so heres the vid [YOUTUBE]PlT9fAkj0XU[/YOUTUBE]
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Please, RM, before the discussion gets shut down from tedious posts, allow me to give you a fantastic example of why we don't want to let for-profits control certain aspects of our lives without some sort of check or balance, i.e. government that is (read: should be) beholden to no one. There's a reason why the NTSB is as respected world-wide as it is.
SFGate said:
PG&E's problem

Under federal and state law, PG&E is obligated to have accurate records of its pipelines - on paper, if necessary.


The company's misconception that the San Bruno pipe was seamless stunned Deborah Hersman, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, but she also said it was just one in a series of blunders by the company.


"This misinformation was not a minor record-keeping oversight," she told a gathering of transportation officials in Washington, D.C., last month. "In the years since the pipe was put into service, decisions regarding inspections, operating pressures and risk management plans were all based on facts that were just plain wrong."
So, while the state's PUC is ostensibly tasked with oversight, they've failed, miserably. But, we have the NTSB and other government agencies, as well as some professional agencies (none with any teeth, though, teeth are important or none of it means a thing) to thank for uncovering this crap. For us, it's another reason to get off-grid ASAP. But, not everyone can do that.



You can read the article in whole here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/02/13/MNAC1HLG95.DTL
 
IPlay4Keepz

IPlay4Keepz

454
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I like his philosophies...

Abolish the Fed and the corrupt money system, do away with the Patriot Act, stop propping dictators and puppet governments with our taxpayer money, legalize cannabis and restructure our medical system...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM8d_Arjz6g&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8bbR488m0Y&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
 
squarepusher

squarepusher

959
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Ron Paul is definitely against the war on drugs, and would decriminalize
 
F

Farmer Jon

Premium Member
Supporter
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Imo Ron Paul is an idea man (great idea's and moving speeches) but lacks the follow through to change anything....say what you will but what America needs is John fuc-n Wayne in the Captains chair, Trump has some Great points.
Look at the type of men that have been in positions of power during the high points of the short history of America, and see if any of our current leaders can hold a candle to these men.
Power is in the man, not just the words but the actions as well.
FJ
 
Smoking Gun

Smoking Gun

2,235
263
While I do agree with a fair amount of what Ron Paul believes in I would never vote for him. For one I think he is a bit unstable. Secondly I don't think he would get much done. Politically Ron Paul is in the minority; he will always be clashing against the republicans and democrats. Neither of those parties agrees with the changes Ron Paul would attempt to make and would consistently thwart many of his attempts to make those changes. Our current political system will not change over night and that alone will make Ron Paul's ideals hard to implement. In my opinion this makes a vote for Ron Paul a waste of a vote.

Now in many ways this view point is what is keeping the system the same, in the hands of the republicans and democrats. But looking for change at the top immediately will not have the desired results. If Ron Paul wants to really effect change he should stay at the state level, this is the level where real change can be made. We should be working from the ground up and looking for change at the local level first. If things change at the local levels the higher branches of government will have to follow.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
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In response to I, Pencil...

I give you meat.


Sentient Meat

The setting is deep space, just beyond the range of Earth's best telescopes. The leader of the Fifth Explorer Force is speaking to the Commander in Chief...


They're made out of meat.

Meat?

Meat. They're made out of meat.

Just Meat?

There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat.

That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars.

They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines.

So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact.

They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines.

That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat.

I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in this sector and they're made out of meat.

Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage.

Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?

Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside.

Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through.

No brain?

Oh, there is a brain alright. It's just that the brain is made out of meat also.

So... what does the thinking?

You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat.

Thinking meat??? You're asking me to believe in thinking meat???

Yes, thinking meat ! Conscious meat ! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal ! Are you getting the picture?

Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat.

Finally ! Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years.

So what does the meat have in mind?

First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual.

We're supposed to talk to meat?

That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing.

They actually do talk then. They use words, ideas, concepts?

Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat.

I thought you just told me they used radio.

They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping a small opening of their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat.

Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?

Officially or unofficially?

Both.

Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we delete the records and forget the whole damn thing.

I was hoping you would say that.

It seems harsh, but there is a limit. I mean, do we really want to make contact with meat?

I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? `Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?

Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact.

So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe?

That's it.

Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?

They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them.

A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream.

And we can mark this sector unoccupied.

Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?

Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again.

They always come around.

And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone. What's say we get going.
 
R

RMCG

2,050
48
I don't get it...

I 'get' the story, typically used in a philosophical discussion, but in relevance to RP/Libertarianism/self-sufficiency?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
We toke through our meat.
I don't get it...

I 'get' the story, typically used in a philosophical discussion, but in relevance to RP/Libertarianism/self-sufficiency?
Oh, I misunderstood. It took me a while to get the pencil thing (moreso to read it), and I think I understand you to be saying that free enterprise drives invention. I disagree with that, I believe necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you're just doing the Zorg thing and making an argument for how free enterprise gives so many so much to do, and I certainly can't, don't and won't argue that. I say a line needs to be drawn between enterprise in the name of money and how that ends up trampling rights. Ultimately where we end up, where we are, is in a place where only those who can afford to assert their rights are able to. The rest are SOOL.

I also thought that the debate/discussion you and were having was regarding our divergence of opinion on how large a role, and what scope that role, our government should play. And with that, I'm assuming that the creatures that found us in the story Sentient Meat were sent by their government.

Small homage to The Hitchhiker's Guide and good stories in general.

I apologize for being so obscure in my references. I hope you enjoyed the story anyway!
 
R

RMCG

2,050
48
We toke through our meat.

Oh, I misunderstood. It took me a while to get the pencil thing (moreso to read it), and I think I understand you to be saying that free enterprise drives invention. I disagree with that, I believe necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you're just doing the Zorg thing and making an argument for how free enterprise gives so many so much to do, and I certainly can't, don't and won't argue that. I say a line needs to be drawn between enterprise in the name of money and how that ends up trampling rights. Ultimately where we end up, where we are, is in a place where only those who can afford to assert their rights are able to. The rest are SOOL.

I also thought that the debate/discussion you and were having was regarding our divergence of opinion on how large a role, and what scope that role, our government should play. And with that, I'm assuming that the creatures that found us in the story Sentient Meat were sent by their government.

Small homage to The Hitchhiker's Guide and good stories in general.

I apologize for being so obscure in my references. I hope you enjoyed the story anyway!

Necessity drives invention, free enterprise delivers. Goes along with your 'people working together for an end' even if some people's 'end' stops at a paycheck/dinner table, its not forced.

While I do think that those rural folks would be SOL as far as broadband internet (I used to be one of them!) I also paid a PREMIUM for what was available to get (satellite, then DSL, then slow-ass cable), because I wanted it, early adopters always do. Sounds like if they aren't making mortgage payments, BB should be the last thing they want/need. Also, nothing wrong with having people stop at a common mailbox/drop to get their mail. I used to have to go in <gasp> to the Post Office to get my mail.

During the 30's when electricity was fairly widespread in the US, less than 10% of rural areas had it. Within 10 years, that number was nearly 80%. Some people do get left behind, but not for long.

You used to (maybe still do?) have to pay for poles/lines to your domicile, power companies will bring utilities UP the rights of way, but getting it to YOU was/is on your dime.

So subsidize ~some~ things (internet, telephony, etc.) but not others big pharma, farmers, 'green' tech, bio-engineering? When does it become the 'big corps' that people are afraid of? Just when you disagree with it?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
If I come across as being that sort of person, I have no explanation. I see nothing wrong with government building or helping to build out infrastructure that helps the country operate, that facilitates that free enterprise, if you will. I do see lines being crossed, I don't think that saying one thing is crossing a line (paying farmers not to grow a particular crop, dictating what crops they can grow, and then we have Monsanto) and saying another isn't (building roads, bridges, communication infrastructure) is arbitrary, either.

Is there going to come a point at which you agree that there is an idea of "moderate Libertarianism", or are you yourself stuck in the paradigm of the purest model of Libertarianism? The one that seems to not take into account human nature, and the vast myriad ways in which one group or individual can completely and totally take advantage of another, with little redress available to that other (thusly, allowing their rights to be completely trampled upon)?

I speak of checks and balances as well, do you find no issue with that, or what? You seem to have this idea that I would quash free enterprise if I don't adhere to the paradigm.

What's all this got to do with RP, anyway? He's a Republican. :makeup

Do you think we have a state of free enterprise in the US right now?
 
5

5tickynubz

69
6
I'll vote for him again. Like last time, he has a snowball's chance but if he starts getting votes it might send a message to Washington that people are serious about wanting shit to change. Seems people just vote for the guy on their team who's most likely to win.
 
Green Mopho

Green Mopho

1,056
83
I'd like to see Ron Paul be given a chance, too bad he's not the decedent of european royalty, like every one of our previous presidents, and he will never truly get "elected" no matter what the people say!
 
F

Farmer Jon

Premium Member
Supporter
412
18
We toke through our meat.

Oh, I misunderstood. It took me a while to get the pencil thing (moreso to read it), and I think I understand you to be saying that free enterprise drives invention. I disagree with that, I believe necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you're just doing the Zorg thing and making an argument for how free enterprise gives so many so much to do, and I certainly can't, don't and won't argue that. I say a line needs to be drawn between enterprise in the name of money and how that ends up trampling rights. Ultimately where we end up, where we are, is in a place where only those who can afford to assert their rights are able to. The rest are SOOL.

I also thought that the debate/discussion you and were having was regarding our divergence of opinion on how large a role, and what scope that role, our government should play. And with that, I'm assuming that the creatures that found us in the story Sentient Meat were sent by their government.

Small homage to The Hitchhiker's Guide and good stories in general.

I apologize for being so obscure in my references. I hope you enjoyed the story anyway!

Necessity drives invention, free enterprise delivers. Goes along with your 'people working together for an end' even if some people's 'end' stops at a paycheck/dinner table, its not forced.

While I do think that those rural folks would be SOL as far as broadband internet (I used to be one of them!) I also paid a PREMIUM for what was available to get (satellite, then DSL, then slow-ass cable), because I wanted it, early adopters always do. Sounds like if they aren't making mortgage payments, BB should be the last thing they want/need. Also, nothing wrong with having people stop at a common mailbox/drop to get their mail. I used to have to go in <gasp> to the Post Office to get my mail.

During the 30's when electricity was fairly widespread in the US, less than 10% of rural areas had it. Within 10 years, that number was nearly 80%. Some people do get left behind, but not for long.

You used to (maybe still do?) have to pay for poles/lines to your domicile, power companies will bring utilities UP the rights of way, but getting it to YOU was/is on your dime.

So subsidize ~some~ things (internet, telephony, etc.) but not others big pharma, farmers, 'green' tech, bio-engineering? When does it become the 'big corps' that people are afraid of? Just when you disagree with it?

If I come across as being that sort of person, I have no explanation. I see nothing wrong with government building or helping to build out infrastructure that helps the country operate, that facilitates that free enterprise, if you will. I do see lines being crossed, I don't think that saying one thing is crossing a line (paying farmers not to grow a particular crop, dictating what crops they can grow, and then we have Monsanto) and saying another isn't (building roads, bridges, communication infrastructure) is arbitrary, either.

Is there going to come a point at which you agree that there is an idea of "moderate Libertarianism", or are you yourself stuck in the paradigm of the purest model of Libertarianism? The one that seems to not take into account human nature, and the vast myriad ways in which one group or individual can completely and totally take advantage of another, with little redress available to that other (thusly, allowing their rights to be completely trampled upon)?

I speak of checks and balances as well, do you find no issue with that, or what? You seem to have this idea that I would quash free enterprise if I don't adhere to the paradigm.

What's all this got to do with RP, anyway? He's a Republican. :makeup

Do you think we have a state of free enterprise in the US right now?

I believe all points are valid...The difference is that necessity drives a different machine than profit does. Invention and creation are part of the human condition and this will never change. Just as man kind as a whole has the need to explore there surroundings, we have a need to see our ideas and thoughts brought to life. To touch them, to smell them, to feel them. The driving force behind the action determines the outcome. i.e a man invents the toothbrush to better his hygiene/health (necessity). Another man invents a way to mass produce this item for profit (free enterprise)...more often than not the two collide, if there was no profit in an item, it may still be created but its the profitability of said item that gets it to the masses.

Imo it has everything to do with RP, or anyone considering taking on the role of the leader of the free world....although i'm not sure a U.S president could hold that title any longer. The American machine is all but dead, and Chinese is a complex language to learn at my age.
At least theres roseta stone.
FJ
 
R

RMCG

2,050
48
If I come across as being that sort of person, I have no explanation. I see nothing wrong with government building or helping to build out infrastructure that helps the country operate, that facilitates that free enterprise, if you will. I do see lines being crossed, I don't think that saying one thing is crossing a line (paying farmers not to grow a particular crop, dictating what crops they can grow, and then we have Monsanto) and saying another isn't (building roads, bridges, communication infrastructure) is arbitrary, either.

Is there going to come a point at which you agree that there is an idea of "moderate Libertarianism", or are you yourself stuck in the paradigm of the purest model of Libertarianism? The one that seems to not take into account human nature, and the vast myriad ways in which one group or individual can completely and totally take advantage of another, with little redress available to that other (thusly, allowing their rights to be completely trampled upon)?

I speak of checks and balances as well, do you find no issue with that, or what? You seem to have this idea that I would quash free enterprise if I don't adhere to the paradigm.

What's all this got to do with RP, anyway? He's a Republican. :makeup

Do you think we have a state of free enterprise in the US right now?


I guess I am just saying those things you speak of are NOT the role of the federal government. State and Local, absolutely. But Washington does not know that your state (or parts of) might be better served by Wi-Fi than DSL due to mountainous terrain or that this bridge or that highway is more important to serve commerce. Sure you can say that the knuckleheads that are in DC 48 weeks out of the year ~should~ know that, but they get so far REMOVED from their constituents due to having to deal with the 'FEDERAL' side of things, they lose sight of their OWN state vs deciding whats good for every other state.

But my point, especially with 'infrastructure' is that once the FED decides which way they are going, they throw money at it and cripples competition. What if they decided xDSL was the 'right' solution for internet access for all, I may have a competing product/solution that works far better, faster, cheaper. IF they get tax credits, no-bid contracts, etc. that is not free enterprise, I'm dead before I get started...

Why would/should there be any innovation in that technology anymore? I've got a government contract, guaranteed consumers, and NO competition. Sounds like a dream job to me...

Fortunately, I think a little more highly of my fellow man, I just think that we have been on the teet for far too long and this is what some have regressed to.

There is plenty of redress available for those that have their rights trampled, I said it in my first? post on the subject, the Supreme Court is to uphold the Constitution and your rights. Their would not be 'Republican' or 'Democrat' justices, just 'justices'. They would be the checks and balances to make sure that individuals, corporations, the states themselves were not trampling on your rights as a sovereign citizen.

RP ~had/has~ to run as a Republican, as he knew he didn't really have a shot at the presidency, but if he switched parties, he would immediately lose his seat in TX. I would rather see an (R) after his name, than not see him in office.
 
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