Sex triggered by environment , how ?

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deeweeb

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I have read various postings that state different environments will trigger the sex gene within a seed to produce a male or female plant .

Could somebody please explain this to me ? I thought the sex of a seed was predetermined in the gene and the environment has nothing to do with changing things as far as sex goes .

Are seeds "bisexual" so to speak , with both sexes contained within the one seed ?
 
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BUDOGHI

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The sex of the seeds is mostly predetermined at least the percentage of male to female. That said environment can sway these percentages a little. The pertinent environmental issues are moisture levels, ph and the amount and quality of your light source. That said the M-F ratio of your seeds is predetermined by the parents...
 
convex

convex

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It is often said that high humidity, low nitrogen, cooler temps and blue light help to bring up females. I am doubtful there is any real science behind this and is strictly anecdotal.
 
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MadBuddhaAbuser

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i can definetly see how temps would affect things. cooler temps would probably be earlier in the season, so more of a chance for continuation of the species. if ya start em in august, they might be thinking they have less of a chance so need more males to spread things out.

never personally did a side-by-side, but it would be a cool thing to see. hint hint.
 
Blaze

Blaze

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It is often said that high humidity, low nitrogen, cooler temps and blue light help to bring up females. I am doubtful there is any real science behind this and is strictly anecdotal.

Yep you are 100% correct there is no real science to support the idea that environment or any of the above conditions determines sex in plants. There have been studies done on this with other types of plants and it was found that the sex of the seed is determined when it first forms. The environment that it germinates and grows in has absolutely no effect on the ratio of males and females.

I've heard/read the same theories about how temp and humidity can get you more females but all the real science on this subject has found the exact opposite to be true. However it has been found that the environment where the seeds form may influence the male/female ratio. Once the seeds have matured, what sex they will be has already been determined.
 
JayBee

JayBee

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I remember seeing a show about crocodile farming and the dude was talking about how if he raised or lowered the temp where the eggs were kept during gestation period it would affect ratio of males/females. If environment can affect reptiles sex why not plants?

JB
 
Blaze

Blaze

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Because reptiles are not plants. They are very different living organisms. I think this is where the myth that plants are affected in the same way comes from. Environment can make a difference when determining the sex of animals but all the studies done on plants have never found an example of the same effect on seeds.
 
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headband707

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I was always under the impression that they hermied through light leaks and prunning... peace out Headband707
 
BOSSMAN88188

BOSSMAN88188

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Any kind of stress can cause hermie. Not that it alway's will. But can.
So too me it make's the same sense that a unhappy seedling could make it think to itself I better be a boy if I want to survive this. Just my .02
 
sedate

sedate

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Blaze said:
Yep you are 100% correct there is no real science to support the idea that environment or any of the above conditions determines sex in plants. There have been studies done on this with other types of plants and it was found that the sex of the seed is determined when it first forms. The environment that it germinates and grows in has absolutely no effect on the ratio of males and females.

I've heard/read the same theories about how temp and humidity can get you more females but all the real science on this subject has found the exact opposite to be true. However it has been found that the environment where the seeds form may influence the male/female ratio.

Blaze said:
Because reptiles are not plants. They are very different living organisms. I think this is where the myth that plants are affected in the same way comes from. Environment can make a difference when determining the sex of animals but all the studies done on plants have never found an example of the same effect on seeds.

Can you link these studies? Or at least provide information about where these were done? Plants reproduce in more ways than animals do - so I find these statements exceedingly hard to believe . . .

From a quick poke around Lexis-Nexis, this doesn't *not* appear to be the case . . .

Plants and reptiles might be very different living organisms but hormone production and transmission during the earliest periods of gestation - in *every* species I've ever studied determines gender. The environment *always* impacts these reactions in some fashion.

With strain/species-specific, controlled studies I'd be suprised if one couldn't find a precise combination of environmental factors that would give you a >90% female or male rate with any given plant species.
 
convex

convex

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Bio-folk have been trying to prove this supposition in reptiles and birds for years, with little success.

For every report of success, there are multiple reports detracting from these findings.

One such study:

Incubation Temperature and Sex Ratio of the Veiled Chameleon (Chamaeleo calyptratus)

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/33-05N.1?cookieSet=1&journalCode=hpet


Abstract

Eggs from five clutches of Chamaeleo calyptratus were incubated at 25, 28, and 30°C during the period of sex determination. Sex ratios were slightly biased toward females at all temperatures but did not differ statistically from the expected 1:1 ratio of males and females. Egg survival was sufficiently high that sex-biased temperature-induced mortality cannot account for the lack of departure from 1:1 sex ratios. I conclude that the veiled chameleon has genetic sex determination (GSD) and that anecdotal accounts of temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) for this species, and other chameleons are likely to reflect reporting or statistical bias.

Full report available at the above link.

Cheers
 
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headband707

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I found this on the net:

Cool night temperatures seem to promote flowering in plants that have previously differentiated sexually. Extended cold periods, however, cause metabolic processes to slow and maturation to cease. Most temperate Cannabis strains are sensitive to many of the signs of an approaching fall season and respond by beginning to flower. In contrast, strains from tropical areas, such as Thailand, often seem unresponsive to any signs of fall and never speed up development.

Contrary to popular thought, planting Cannabis strains later in the season in temperate latitudes may actually promote earlier flowering. Most cultivators believe that planting early gives the plant plenty of time to flower and it will finish earlier. This is often not true. Seedlings started in February or March grow for 4-5 months of increasing photoperiod before the days begin to get shorter following the solstice in June. Huge vegetative plants grow and may form floral inhibitors during the months of long photo-period. When the days begin to get shorter, these older plants may be reluctant to flower because of the floral inhibitors formed in the pre-floral leaves. Since floral cluster formation takes 6-10 weeks, the initial delay in flowering could push the harvest date into November or December. Cannabis started during the short days of December or January will often differentiate sex by March or April. Usually these plants form few floral clusters and rejuvenate for the long season ahead. No increased potency has been noticed in old rejuvenated plants. Plants started in late June or early July, after the summer solstice, are exposed only to days of decreasing photoperiod. When old enough they begin flowering immediately, possibly because they haven’t built up as many long-day floral inhibitors. They begin the 6-10 week floral period with plenty of time to finish during the warmer days of October. These later plantings yield smaller plants because they have a shorter vegetative cycle. This may prove an advantage. in greenhouse research, where it is common for plants to grow far too large for easy handling before they begin to flower. Late plantings after the summer solstice receive short inductive photoperiods almost immediately. However, flowering is delayed into September since the plant must grow before it is old enough to flower. Although flowering is delayed, the small plants rapidly produce copious quantities of flowers in a final effort to reproduce.
 
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Charles Xavier

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Greetings deeweeb

Sex triggered by environment , how ?....deeweeb

Great question; I will try to provide a simple response.

The answer lays in the difference between genotype and phenotype.

Sexual determination is genotypic. That means it is written in the genetic code of the organism. Whether it is 'male' or 'female' is predetermined.

Sexual expression is phenotypic. That means all the traits possessed by an organism that can be visually observed; but it also encompasses all the traits that can be made to manifest by manipulation or stimuli. Whether it appears to be 'male' or 'female' is condition dependent.


I have read various postings that state different environments will trigger the sex gene within a seed to produce a male or female plant....deeweeb

This is where the confusion begins to manifest. The environment does not "trigger the sex gene". The sex of the plant is already fixed. The environment influences expression i.e. causes certain chemical processes in the plant that may cause it to look differently.

I thought the sex of a seed was predetermined in the gene and the environment has nothing to do with changing things as far as sex goes ....deeweeb

Correct.

The genetic code (genotype) remains intact, but what can be visually assessed is influenced by the environment (phenotype).

Are seeds "bisexual" so to speak , with both sexes contained within the one seed ?....deeweeb

Here's the deal: ordinarily the environment shouldn't have such a profound effect on a seed, but irrespective of what they appear to be phenotypically, most Cannabis plants are genotypically intersex specimens (colloquially referred to as hermies).

That's just the way it is.

Sincerely,
Charles.
 
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deeweeb

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Thanks everyone , Charles a question ?

You said :
Sexual expression is phenotypic. That means all the traits possessed by an organism that can be visually observed; but it also encompasses all the traits that can be made to manifest by manipulation or stimuli. Whether it appears to be 'male' or 'female' is condition dependent.

So really the genotype doesn't matter ? If the genotype of a plant is actually male , but because of the environment , it's phenotype manifests as a female for all intensive purposes it appears and acts like a male ?
If this is true then , understanding what conditions need to be manipulated in the plants environment to bring out a female phenotype would almost guarantee all females would it not ?
 
JayBee

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Good thread all. Interesting to note that the breeders obvservations of temp affecting sex may not bear out in controlled studies. Lots of other good posts here too. Very happy to see people disagreeing and debating in such a civilized and positive manner.

JB
 
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Rocky Top

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Great thread! I have been experiencing a very strange thing when I germ seeds. I was just talking about this in a PM to a friend on here just the other day. Out of the last 16 regular seeds I have popped, 15 have been female. I have been trying to get a male for over a year and every seed I pop is a female and I am talking about regular seeds, here is what I have popped in the last year...

3 Serious Seeds Kali Mist = 3 females
4 Cali Connection Larry OG = 4 females
4 Mosca Cindy 99 = 4 females
3 Hindu Kush = 2 females
2 Serious Seeds AK47 = 2 females

I have friends that even though they have known me for over 30 years they find it hard to believe. Thankfully, I have a few witnesses but even they are questioning whether or not the seeds are really regular seeds. They think they are fems even though every single one of those beans can only be purchased as regular seeds.

I don't have any explaination but I am under the belief that it is more than just luck. I just popped the 4 Cindy 99's and I was certain I would get a few males but I sexed these over the weekend and all are most definitately female, without a doubt. I have joked it has been so long since I saw a male i am not sure if I would recognize one.

I have no scientific theory as to why this is occuring but it certainly seems strange. I can give all types of enviroment info but I really don't have any idea what you guys would be looking for. I understand that with that small of a sample luck figures into it but you guys gotta admit, 15 out of 16 regular seeds that were female is off the "lucky charts".
 
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headband707

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Perhaps Rocky Top the plant is saying don't breed me. I get the opposite to you lol.. lots of males lol If I sent you seeds you would definately get males lol peace out Headband707
 
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bigAl25

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Dear Rocky Top, I experienced the same deal with my 6 bag seeds from my last grow. 400 watt MH, in cool basement closet grow. Every one came up female when I flipped them to 12/12. These were not fem seeds, and some could have been a few years old. Luke meister and I kept seeds from our best stuff over the last few years. I have no explanation why all six were female, but I was very happy they were for my small grow. I only wish this luck would rub off with my lottery ticket purchases. Peace and respect. Remember Bob Marley loves Ya "One Love"
 
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Gobshite

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Here's the deal: ordinarily the environment shouldn't have such a profound effect on a seed, but irrespective of what they appear to be phenotypically, most Cannabis plants are genotypically intersex specimens (colloquially referred to as hermies).

That's just the way it is.

Greetings CX,

Always a pleasure reading your posts,

from above is it safe to say cannabis is not dioecious but more sub-dioecious and therefore at an early stage of sex chromosome evolution? or do you feel it can be moved to dioecy fairly rapidly?
 
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