Spider Mite Reality

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3 balls

3 balls

Also there is this chart about the dissipation of azadrachtin-a in soil. View attachment 839509
This is from the same study so you can compare the ratios in soil and plant tissue at the same time.
View attachment 839510
I started this thread because I see too many people buying TOXIC TOXIC TOXIC bottles and foggers, not to sanitize a room, but to use on plants. Safer if not perfect alternatives are available!

You can try to make the world a perfect place, I'm rooting for you! I'm going to take my chances just making it a better place.

Thank you CrimsonEcho and a few others for bringing something to the table, I hope you don't regret it.
 
CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

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Supporter
I started this thread because I see too many people buying TOXIC TOXIC TOXIC bottles and foggers, not to sanitize a room, but to use on plants. Safer if not perfect alternatives are available!

You can try to make the world a perfect place, I'm rooting for you! I'm going to take my chances just making it a better place.

Thank you CrimsonEcho and a few others for bringing something to the table, I hope you don't regret it.
You are your own person man, i just try to share some interesting things, that i happen to stumble upon, with people. I hope you don’t regret keeping an advice of mine :)

Some of these studies have anecdotal results, they are mostly field tests.

But they clearly state a reduced pest activity and heightened predator mite activity in soil amended with neem cake.

I don’t know why people getting crazy about residual amounts of azadirachtin in the plant material (by the end of your grow it should be pretty much depleted anyway).

People eat neem seeds as a super food, which contains azadirachtin. Fare, you are not smoking it when eating seeds and it is listed as an endocrine distrubtor in EU but still i don’t think by the end of your plants life cycle, even if my theory is correct, there won’t be serious amounts of azadirachtin in the leaves or the flowers, it will dissipate by that point and whatever might be left is negligible imho.
 
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CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

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Ah also i need to add, that in the study about neem cake, they are using 500kg per hectare which is roughly 450 lbs per acre. Not a light touch by any means but its for an acre of land.
I think one should go even higher by the way. This is just one field study which notes reduced pest count but, i am sure there is room for improvement there.
The pesticide effect of neem is not solely based on azadirachtin either. There are many active compounds that repel pests in neem.
Also i heard habanero spray was very effective as @1diesel1 said. I think a pro active and integrated management for a mid size grow op is very important.
If i had one such operation and if i wanted go organic and natural,
- I would heavily amend the soil with neem cake
- Mulch every bit of open soil
- Keep it clean as fuck
- Spray with habanero spray every week to every 15 days
- Do companion plants (marigold, sage, lavender, mint, garlic, basil etc.) and lots of them
just cause i didn’t want to risk anything.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my two cents, i cannot guarantee any/all of these will work as hoped. This is not a statement. :)
 
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3 balls

3 balls

Ah also i need to add, that in the study about neem cake, they are using 500kg per hectare which is roughly 450 lbs per acre. Not a light touch by any means but its for an acre of land.
I think one should go even higher by the way. This is just one field study which notes reduced pest count but, i am sure there is room for improvement there.
The pesticide effect of neem is not solely based on azadirachtin either. There are many active compounds that repel pests in neem.
Also i heard habanero spray was very effective as @1diesel1 said. I think a pro active and integrated management for a mid size grow op is very important.
If i had one such operation and if i wanted go organic and natural,
- I would heavily amend the soil with neem cake
- Mulch every bit of open soil
- Keep it clean as fuck
- Spray with habanero spray every week to every 15 days
- Do companion plants (marigold, sage, lavender, mint, garlic, basil etc.) and lots of them
just cause i didn’t want to risk anything.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my two cents, i cannot guarantee any/all of these will work as hoped. This is not a statement. :)
IF you had such an operation and IF you even loosely followed such procedures you would end up with a product less toxic than 99% of the smoke out there.
IF anybody believes that is not the reality of it I think they should get a CAT scan to find out IF they have suffered brain damage from smoking too much actual pesticide.;)
 
CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

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IF you had such an operation and IF you even loosely followed such procedures you would end up with a product less toxic than 99% of the smoke out there.
IF anybody believes that is not the reality of it I think they should get a CAT scan to find out IF they have suffered brain damage from smoking too much actual pesticide.;)
Thats why i grow my medicine at home man :)
Wish you a clean and bountiful harvest with good returns.
 
CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

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Show me in that link where it states anything about azadirachtin being present for 4 months and in the leaves for 20 -40 days ? The study you quoted and the graphs about azadirachtin aren’t even the same study. You never even saw the study that the graphs were associated with but your citing as evidence to prove your point ? Very intelligent
I demanded the said study from the canadian forest service, they emailed me a pdf of the study. They made clear in the email that there is a copyright issue and it is illegal to publish this or share it anywhere. The graph is in the study.
Plus the study itself references to many other studies which proves the efficacy of soil drench with azadirachtin against sucking pests.
The methodology is there too. They used a 20% azadirachtin solution for the experiment.
You can type your mail into the canadian forest service and get the study yourself. I dont want to go into a copyright problem here.
But there is an important part about the population densities with the treated plants and the control plants.
This is very important!
They noted a 83% decrease in the population density of spider mites on the treated plants by the 10th day in comparison to the untreated plants. Gradually rising from 3% percent at the first day of application.
83% with that measly ug/g values.
 
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eastcoastjoe

eastcoastjoe

This is gonna be my last post on the topic because it’s not worth the argument. The only reason I even posted anything is because it blows my mind that neem gets such a bad wrap. People clearly don’t understand the difference between neem and a azadirachtin extract product. I blame that on misinformation.

Since there clearly using a azadirachtin concentrate and not a natural neem product such as oil or meal in the study you posted related to the graph, I don’t even wanna go through the trouble to get the study because it’s not going to prove anything except what I already suspected. azadirachtin concentrates can be toxic, neem is not when used properly.

Your quoting a study you never even saw, just because you saw a graph which could have meant anything. And just as I suspected , there using a azadirachtin concentrate in the study related to that graph. Your also are taking pieces of information from one study adding it to another and saying here’s my sources. Thats not science thats your opinion.

The length of time it takes for neem to break down in soil, which will vary greatly between soils, adding that to the time it takes for “ azadirachtin “ to leave leaf tissue when using a drench from a “ extract” and saying it’s logical to think that will be the amount of time residual azadirachtin stays in a plant from using neem meal makes no sense. That’s not even close to the same thing and there are lots of other variables there bro.

The other study there using neem meal at rates you would never use in growing cannabis or use in any other gardening applications as a fertilizer and there using different pesticide sprays if I recall as well.

If they used meals and oils in the same manner as any cannabis grower would and still showed concentrations of azadirachtin in the tissues for the length of time as you say, I would not say another word on the topic but they don’t.

My position is this and I’m not going to comment again. If you use neem meal in your soils and use oils correctly, azadirachtin will not be in your end product.

People using azadirachtin concentrates and using them at inappropriate times , is why neem is getting a bad wrap in the cannabis community, particularly those making cannabis extracts which adds another variable. in reality , if your using a azadirachtin extract, it’s not neem at all at that point. Neem is wonderful for your soil when used according to the directions and there isn’t a study out proving otherwise.

I demanded the said study from the canadian forest service, they emailed me a pdf of the study. They made clear in the email that there is a copyright issue and it is illegal to publish this or share it anywhere. The graph is in the study.
Plus the study itself references to many other studies which proves the efficacy of soil drench with azadirachtin against sucking pests.
The methodology is there too. They used a 20% azadirachtin solution for the experiment.
You can type your mail into the canadian forest service and get the study yourself. I dont want to go into a copyright problem here.
But there is an important part about the population densities with the treated plants and the control plants.
This is very important!
They noted a 83% decrease in the population density of spider mites on the treated plants by the 10th day in comparison to the untreated plants. Gradually rising from 3% percent at the first day of application.
83% with that measly ug/g values.
 
CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

Self-Proclaimed Don Quixote
Supporter
This is gonna be my last post on the topic because it’s not worth the argument. The only reason I even posted anything is because it blows my mind that neem gets such a bad wrap. People clearly don’t understand the difference between neem and a azadirachtin extract product. I blame that on misinformation.

Since there clearly using a azadirachtin concentrate and not a natural neem product such as oil or meal in the study you posted related to the graph, I don’t even wanna go through the trouble to get the study because it’s not going to prove anything except what I already suspected. azadirachtin concentrates can be toxic, neem is not when used properly.

Your quoting a study you never even saw, just because you saw a graph which could have meant anything. And just as I suspected , there using a azadirachtin concentrate in the study related to that graph. Your also are taking pieces of information from one study adding it to another and saying here’s my sources. Thats not science thats your opinion.

The length of time it takes for neem to break down in soil, which will vary greatly between soils, adding that to the time it takes for “ azadirachtin “ to leave leaf tissue when using a drench from a “ extract” and saying it’s logical to think that will be the amount of time residual azadirachtin stays in a plant from using neem meal makes no sense. That’s not even close to the same thing and there are lots of other variables there bro.

The other study there using neem meal at rates you would never use in growing cannabis or use in any other gardening applications as a fertilizer and there using different pesticide sprays if I recall as well.

If they used meals and oils in the same manner as any cannabis grower would and still showed concentrations of azadirachtin in the tissues for the length of time as you say, I would not say another word on the topic but they don’t.

My position is this and I’m not going to comment again. If you use neem meal in your soils and use oils correctly, azadirachtin will not be in your end product.

People using azadirachtin concentrates and using them at inappropriate times , is why neem is getting a bad wrap in the cannabis community, particularly those making cannabis extracts which adds another variable. in reality , if your using a azadirachtin extract, it’s not neem at all at that point. Neem is wonderful for your soil when used according to the directions and there isn’t a study out proving otherwise.
You are a pathetic little man. If you can’t put 2 and 2 together, you have only yourself to blame. Ok maybe your parents too.
This conversation is done on my behalf. Not gonna dignify you and your inferior mental capacity ever again.
 
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1diesel1

1diesel1

Staff member
Supporter
This is gonna be my last post on the topic because it’s not worth the argument. The only reason I even posted anything is because it blows my mind that neem gets such a bad wrap. People clearly don’t understand the difference between neem and a azadirachtin extract product. I blame that on misinformation.

Since there clearly using a azadirachtin concentrate and not a natural neem product such as oil or meal in the study you posted related to the graph, I don’t even wanna go through the trouble to get the study because it’s not going to prove anything except what I already suspected. azadirachtin concentrates can be toxic, neem is not when used properly.

Your quoting a study you never even saw, just because you saw a graph which could have meant anything. And just as I suspected , there using a azadirachtin concentrate in the study related to that graph. Your also are taking pieces of information from one study adding it to another and saying here’s my sources. Thats not science thats your opinion.

The length of time it takes for neem to break down in soil, which will vary greatly between soils, adding that to the time it takes for “ azadirachtin “ to leave leaf tissue when using a drench from a “ extract” and saying it’s logical to think that will be the amount of time residual azadirachtin stays in a plant from using neem meal makes no sense. That’s not even close to the same thing and there are lots of other variables there bro.

The other study there using neem meal at rates you would never use in growing cannabis or use in any other gardening applications as a fertilizer and there using different pesticide sprays if I recall as well.

If they used meals and oils in the same manner as any cannabis grower would and still showed concentrations of azadirachtin in the tissues for the length of time as you say, I would not say another word on the topic but they don’t.

My position is this and I’m not going to comment again. If you use neem meal in your soils and use oils correctly, azadirachtin will not be in your end product.

People using azadirachtin concentrates and using them at inappropriate times , is why neem is getting a bad wrap in the cannabis community, particularly those making cannabis extracts which adds another variable. in reality , if your using a azadirachtin extract, it’s not neem at all at that point. Neem is wonderful for your soil when used according to the directions and there isn’t a study out proving otherwise.
You are a pathetic little man. If you can’t put 2 and 2 together, you have only yourself to blame. Ok maybe your parents too.
This conversation is done on my behalf. Not gonna dignify you and your inferior mental capacity ever again.
 
CrimsonEcho

CrimsonEcho

Self-Proclaimed Don Quixote
Supporter
It is crazy but have to answer his bullshit claims so people don’t get the wrong idea.
First of all, i looked at both of these studies, they reference many studies that complies with their claims too.
Secondly, the study with neem meal has a control and an unsprayed one. Which the neem amended one performs better than the control.
Thirdly, 450lbs per acre is not a stellar number. I have never amended an acre of soil but there are calculations out there and it basically says if you have nitrogen deficient acre of soil, you will have to use 370lbs of 18-?-? fertilizer to correct it. So 460lbs per acre is not some far fetched number.
The fourth, if he bothered to look at the studies himself, he would understand that the one with the chart supports my ideas about the azadirachtin accumulation in leaf matter and roots (it states that it doesn’t accumulate in the stems, chart supports this) and that it takes very low concentrations to help with the pests.
Fifth, the regimen i proposed was based on getting a clean product at the end regardless, if you vegged and flowered in the same soil. Hell, after 1-2 months, the azadirachtin levels in the soil would probably detoriate greatly and that point you still have a clean product.
Finally, he was unable comprehend that, these are not scientific results, they are based on logic and they are my opinions, i told it several times.
 
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Deadstill

Deadstill

Staff member
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I've found that using a homemade lemon oil works very well at getting rid of spider mites during flower. Simple recipes can be found online, basically just lemon zest and olive oil in a jar, set out in the sun for a couple of days. Doesn't ruin your flavor or put anything toxic into your flower.
 
T

Treedude541

7
3
3
Heres one for yall I heard of using citric acid and soap bark with an electrostatic sprayer... does anyone what type of yeast is used in nuke em or dr zymes?
 
Deadstill

Deadstill

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Heres one for yall I heard of using citric acid and soap bark with an electrostatic sprayer... does anyone what type of yeast is used in nuke em or dr zymes?
That's similar to the lemon oil I mentioned above. It's the same thing, essentially. The citric acid in the zest gets absorbed into the oil and drives the mites away. I'm unsure if it actually kills them, or if it just makes them vacate the plant, but it works quite well, I've been using it to get rid of spider mites for a long time. I use a strong neem mix for veg and lemon oil for bloom so it doesn't ruin the flavor or make you sick. A buddy of mine just had a really, really bad spider mite infestation in his entire grow. Both his veg and blooms were under attack. He tried Avid and some other store bought products like 86, to no avail. I came over with 2 sprayers, one with neem for his veg and one with lemon oil for the blooms. Sprayed once all over the plants especially the stomata, he said 3 days later he couldn't find a single spider mite in his house. They never came back.
 
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Treedude541

7
3
3
That's similar to the lemon oil I mentioned above. It's the same thing, essentially. The citric acid in the zest gets absorbed into the oil and drives the mites away. I'm unsure if it actually kills them, or if it just makes them vacate the plant, but it works quite well, I've been using it to get rid of spider mites for a long time. I use a strong neem mix for veg and lemon oil for bloom so it doesn't ruin the flavor or make you sick. A buddy of mine just had a really, really bad spider mite infestation in his entire grow. Both his veg and blooms were under attack. He tried Avid and some other store bought products like 86, to no avail. I came over with 2 sprayers, one with neem for his veg and one with lemon oil for the blooms. Sprayed once all over the plants especially the stomata, he said 3 days later he couldn't find a single spider mite in his house. They never came back.
 
T

Treedude541

7
3
3
I use a one two punch of citric acid day one which helps breakdown exoskeleton of the bug. Then the essential oil spray which smothers the bug n collapse eggs...in veg only then a citric acid spray in flower.. I shy away from neem oils but doe mix neem meal into soil
 
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