Testing...huh, I don't think so

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Rednick

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it was sort of green lol def not that good of bho mine was much more impressive visually.
here is what i showed him
http://i184.invalid.com/albums/x18/deeeman16_2007/DSC01950.jpg
If it is green, then that would indicate Chlorophyll getting into the mix, so I am not sure WTF he is doing? Certain strains will be darker b/c of CBD content, your sativas tend to be 'blonde'. It actually has been a good way for me to get a handle on the sat/ind dominance by looking at my budder's hue.
Where does one find those little boxes or ones like them?
The oil looks good, but b/c there are bubbles there is still a miniscule amount of tane left in there. Easily removed by the carefull application of heat. If you are purging using boiling water, try a flat electric griddle, it is much easier to maintain a warm temp on the glass and they only cost about $40.

BTW if your BHO is still sticky it still has some 'tane left in it. if you leave it in the open for a few months it won't be sticky anymore (well, at least on top).

i dn if id agree with u there sput cant say stickyness has anything to do with whats leftover , as many oils including sc c02 that has completely zero solvents left it in it is quite quite sticky

ur just talking about dehyrdating the oil which has minimal longterm affects on purging whatever is left, pretty much get the same out with a proper purge done ur better off leaving it gooey imo, smokes way easier, if the residual tane is a concern vac purge it
But if you get it into a semi-solid form, it breaks up easily just like normal hash, and doesn't stick to your container as much.

ganja- I concur...ive talked with some chemists who say properly low temp purged oil should be almost viscous at room temp...so id imagine pretty sticky.
Yeah, like two year old pine tar IMO. I would think they mean more on the side of the viscosity of glass versus sugar water.

I will agree that essential oils are sticky, but I must contend that the process that many people use to make BHO still leaves 'tane in it, and therefore heating it longer, below the boiling point of the cannabinoids will remove more of the 'tane.
As you work the oil (yes you may be dehydrating it too), those miniscule amounts of 'tane that get trapped as the viscosity of the product increases, they simply cannot escape through bursting bubbles [unless you have some crazy ass vacuum purge on that shit, but even then you would want to add heat]. Surface tension is what prohibits the 'tane from escaping. The 'tane is not chemically bonding in anyway, it is simply trapped.
Conversely, since 'tane (or CO2) is a gas the volume/temperature curve is of great importance here in purging of the gas from the analyte, when trying to overcome that surface tension of the oil.

I guess the real heart of the matter is, that current testing can't be trusted and we are just splitting hairs here.
There is only one test that matters to me, and that is the smoke test.

Two books of interest in this discussion are:
ISBN 0471119903, ISBN 0750692448
You can reserve them from the universities at

I have since stopped research on this subject, because it wasn't going anywhere.
Just going to stick with a griddle, copper tube and a case of Vector.
 
M

Mr. Lucky

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0
I have to step in here and say a few things about cannabis testing. I am a lurker, and rarely post on any of the forums, but this is something I actually know a bit about. I am a caregiver in CO, and have been testing my meds for about 6 months. I have used RM3, Cannalabs, and Full Spectrum. I have not tried Genovations down in the springs, but have a extreme dislike for mike lee, and really don't want to send business his way.

Also, I have a masters in experimental psychology, and am very familiar from my grad school years of the various testing procedures these labs are using.

I hear so much talk about how testing is not accurate, because different labs give different results. While I agree 100% that the labs results do not compare, but it is NOT true that testing is not accurate. Here is why.

It all really comes down to the method the labs are using to test. In CO we have people doing GC (cannalabs) HPLC (Full Spectrum/Genovations) and TLC (RM3)

GC is gas chromatography. It is the method that Sam Skunk of ICMAG has used for years. It is also what they have used in the past in Canada at the few national hemp labs. It vaporises a sample in order to analyze it, and here lies the problem with GC. The operator must set the temperature at which the sample is vaporized. All of the cannabinoids vaporise at different temperatures. Too cold and some won't vaporise completely, too hot and they will break down. Even worse, the vaporization process is usually not 100% efficient. Depending on the concentration of cannabinoids loading on the machine, the efficacy of conversion can range from 80%-100%. There are very good papers describing the problems of GC and cannabis in the scientific literature. If people are interested I will post them (if I can find them on my harddrive.)

What this mean on a practical level, is GC either over reports or under reports, based on the amount of cannabinoids in a sample. Usually it under reports for bud, and dramatically over reports for concentrates. Also, it can not test for the "ACID" variants of the cannabinoids, making it really useless for edibles. This is exactly what I have seen from cannalabs. My bud tends to test low, and my oil tests way to high.


HPLC (High performance Liquid Chromatography) is in my opinion, and the opinion of most of the current scientific literature, is the way to test all forms of cannabis products. This is what the Dutch use in their cannabis program, and its what World Health Organization says should be used, and is what GW pharma uses. The cannabinoids stay in a liquid form, you get a very accurate picture of the ACID and ACTIVE cannabinoids, and it can test ALL forms of cannabis. Edibles, Bud, concentrates, ect. It does have problems with very dilute forms of cannabis, like the tincture I make, but even then I seem to get reliable results.

The problem is it is much harder to run a HPLC than a GC. The methods are MUCH more complex, tend to take longer to get a result, are more expensive, harder to maintain, and you need far more standards than a GC. This is the reason more people don't use it.

My experience with HPLC via Full Spectrum has been pretty favorable, however there were some issues in the past. When I first started testing with them, it took a very long time to get results. Sometimes a week or more. But they are now down to usually 24 hours, amazing that this happens when you know how labs are run. I also think that on Bud, they were not supper consistant at first, as I would see a harvest vary by as much as 5 or 6%. Recently, I have started to grind my samples before submitting them, and things are much better now, more like 1-2%. But on edibles and concentrates they are the most consistant lab I have used. They are also the only lab to give you results for THCV and CBC, which I have been using to breed a THCV strain. I also like them because there website is easy to use and tracks my results for me. Plus they are cheap, I just bought another 10 tests and it cost me only 350$. Last time I bought 10 it was 600. 65$ seems to be the going price for a test in CO.

TLC, thin layer chromatography, is what RM3 uses. TLC is what the "Cannalytics" test that you can by on line is. Search any of the forums, and you will see how people feel about it. Basically the cannabinoids are placed in a solution and allowed to move up a paper or glass plate. Then the "smears" on the plate are measured. This in my opinion is not a method that should be used for accurate testing of ANYTHING. It is used in science to track a chemical reaction, or a quick and dirty estimate of a concentration, usually out in the field where a true analytical lab is not available. Run to run consistency is very difficult, and there is a lot of room for "operator error" It is laughable that someone is using this method to test cannabis. Its even more funny that people use it, and trust the results.

Here is a good example of a stress test I have conducted on all three labs. I have sent samples of my CBD clone to all three labs, it came back close to my expected Cannalabs and Full spectrum, and almost no (.17%) CBD from RM3. I have heard the same thing from other breeders.

I also tested my BHO with all three. it came back at 72% THC from Cannalabs, 48.6% THC from full spectrum, and 41.5% THC from RM3. I in no way believe the cannalabs number. I do believe the other two.

I think a large part of what is going on with regards to testing is a lot of people do not have the training/education to interrupt the claims and results of the various labs.


Just my thoughts and experiences...

Mr. Lucky
 
true grit

true grit

6,269
313
If it is green, then that would indicate Chlorophyll getting into the mix, so I am not sure WTF he is doing? Certain strains will be darker b/c of CBD content, your sativas tend to be 'blonde'. It actually has been a good way for me to get a handle on the sat/ind dominance by looking at my budder's hue.
Where does one find those little boxes or ones like them?
The oil looks good, but b/c there are bubbles there is still a miniscule amount of tane left in there. Easily removed by the carefull application of heat. If you are purging using boiling water, try a flat electric griddle, it is much easier to maintain a warm temp on the glass and they only cost about $40.

But if you get it into a semi-solid form, it breaks up easily just like normal hash, and doesn't stick to your container as much.

Yeah, like two year old pine tar IMO. I would think they mean more on the side of the viscosity of glass versus sugar water.

I will agree that essential oils are sticky, but I must contend that the process that many people use to make BHO still leaves 'tane in it, and therefore heating it longer, below the boiling point of the cannabinoids will remove more of the 'tane.
As you work the oil (yes you may be dehydrating it too), those miniscule amounts of 'tane that get trapped as the viscosity of the product increases, they simply cannot escape through bursting bubbles [unless you have some crazy ass vacuum purge on that shit, but even then you would want to add heat]. Surface tension is what prohibits the 'tane from escaping. The 'tane is not chemically bonding in anyway, it is simply trapped.
Conversely, since 'tane (or CO2) is a gas the volume/temperature curve is of great importance here in purging of the gas from the analyte, when trying to overcome that surface tension of the oil.
.

Nice info bro. folks should heed that fa sho. From my experience so far, though strain to strain its different...i only get "budder" when i used excess heat. regardless of strain low temp purge tends to produce the same results. From what ive discussed with some folks and from trials after discussions, anything over 100 degrees starts a cannabinoidal breakdown and leaves you with less thc content. It also changes the consistency and color of the oil. If folks are heat purging, i would most def suggest temps under 110 and a slow spreading. vac purging, just stay under 100 and you'll get it plenty viscous to break surface tension and every run will look like honey oil... for the most part...hehe.


Mr. Lucky- agreed, phenomenal first post and a lot of good info that i will be taking in and putting to use now with future testing and expectations!
 
M

Mr. Lucky

4
0
On concentrates....

IMO, you can not go by color or sticky/solid. The color of the oil changes as it ages. I believe it is oxidizing from contact with oxygen in the air, kind of like olive oil. I have seen oil that starts out light blonde amber and after a week or two "drying" it is brown. However, the THC content of the oil remain basically constant.

Also, sticky vs. solid/chunky. It seems some strains have more wax/plant matter that co extracts with the cannabinoids. I have seen solid "glass" oil that only tested at 45-50%, I have seen sticky oils that test in the 50-60%.

Basically, I think there is a whole lot going on in concentrates that is not understood by anyone yet. One thing is for sure, heating it definitely drives off the flavor...

Just my experience.

Mr. Lucky
 
Blaze

Blaze

2,006
263
Hey Tex isn't it possible you oil just had CDN, CBD etc in it? Did you get a full spectrum test or just a THC test? Personally I think this obsession over THC numbers is a bit narrow-minded. There are hundreds of other chemicals in cannabis that all contribute to the high and flavor. If your oil is 99% THC then you are lacking CBN, CBD, etc. I've tried some 99% oil and it was nice, but the high was really narrow and basic and it had no flavor to speak of. I've tried other oils that were technically not as potent based off the THC content, but were much nicer smoke (and IMO better) since they tasted like the bud the oil came from and had a more complex and interesting high. Also I think 60%+ bubble hash is totally possible; most people just do not know how to make it properly so the number tend to test low most of the time. Most bubble hash you see no longer has the trichrome heads in tact and has lots of contaminants and has been improperly stored and over dried which all reduces potency. If you do it right the bubble hash will be nothing but pure trichrome heads and as potent many hash oils, plus all the terpenes will still be in tact so it will taste and smell like the bud it came from.
 
M

Mr. Lucky

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Cannabinoid "ratio" as FSL calls it, or the balance of the cannabinoids is far more important than high THC numbers.

I think 60% + dry sift is possible, but bubble hash i don't think so. But if it was it would have to be very very potent starting material.
 
Dorje

Dorje

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Blaze is right, there are hundreds of other cannabinoids and terpenes that define the effects. I think thc testing is useful though, it is a good indicator of how potent the bud is subjectively, and when you are evaluating a bunch of phenos it is nice to know. We had a super nice pheno of Cheesus recently that just looked and smelled awesome but tested 9% and sure enough it isn't potent enough to be worth keeping around...
 
Green Mopho

Green Mopho

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Was just hanging & smokin with some of the FSL guys last night Good people and good to know there are some true stoners that have a genuine love for this plant that are doing the testing!
 
true grit

true grit

6,269
313
Hey Tex isn't it possible you oil just had CDN, CBD etc in it? Did you get a full spectrum test or just a THC test? Personally I think this obsession over THC numbers is a bit narrow-minded. There are hundreds of other chemicals in cannabis that all contribute to the high and flavor. If your oil is 99% THC then you are lacking CBN, CBD, etc. I've tried some 99% oil and it was nice, but the high was really narrow and basic and it had no flavor to speak of. I've tried other oils that were technically not as potent based off the THC content, but were much nicer smoke (and IMO better) since they tasted like the bud the oil came from and had a more complex and interesting high. Also I think 60%+ bubble hash is totally possible; most people just do not know how to make it properly so the number tend to test low most of the time. Most bubble hash you see no longer has the trichrome heads in tact and has lots of contaminants and has been improperly stored and over dried which all reduces potency. If you do it right the bubble hash will be nothing but pure trichrome heads and as potent many hash oils, plus all the terpenes will still be in tact so it will taste and smell like the bud it came from.

I agree with that right there. Most folks just DON'T make GOOD bubble hash...period. And Blaze believe you me, after knowing cali hash makers for some time, making my own with better material, and watching/seeing what is used and what is made out here- probably not 50%+ out here, but its gotta be possible with teh shit out here and the decent numbers some are even pulling. and yeah ya could be right with Tex numbers cuz im pretty sure he makes PTO, which will have some degradation of THC.

I had some oil tested in teh 70's and and some in the 60's and the one in the 60's with more cbd content was way better oil all aruond. All have the same flavor as the buds- without a doubt- but the ones with a more full cannabinoid profile seem to hit WAY better.
 
Blaze

Blaze

2,006
263
I had some oil tested in teh 70's and and some in the 60's and the one in the 60's with more cbd content was way better oil all aruond. All have the same flavor as the buds- without a doubt- but the ones with a more full cannabinoid profile seem to hit WAY better.

Yeah that is what I have noticed too. Pure THC content is not always an indicatory of quality.
 
Ohiofarmer

Ohiofarmer

932
93
Not hating on anyones knowledge or anything just throwing in the fact that there are no labs in CO yet that have the proper equipment to test the hydrocarbons in cannabis period. Until they do i wouldn't trust really any of their results.
 
Jarofunk

Jarofunk

293
43
Ahhh, so good to finally see a thread on this. Where do I start? Novice growers achieving 20%+? Extracts over 90%? These numbers defy everything I have learned in the past. I know things may have come a long ways lately, but these numbers are startling. People have been calling me a hater and whatnot, but I have and will stick by my guns with this one. Something is definitely up with this
 
B

BoCo Buds

138
0
Was just hanging & smokin with some of the FSL guys last night Good people and good to know there are some true stoners that have a genuine love for this plant that are doing the testing!

I'd suggest swinging by the lab & discussing the procedures, equipment & margins of error... along with variation within the plant samples.

Hint, hint... speak with the lab techs... three of them that I know... not the dude on tv nor the reps... talk to the techs.

GM's correct in his read of these cats... they have a set of growers in there that want to take the science & assist other growers in maximizing their techniques/results. Good folks... no one that is fudging the numbers over there... growers. They'l totally be willing to sit with you for an hour if your cool about it... and clear up all the misconceptions.
 
H

haole

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I'd suggest swinging by the lab & discussing the procedures, equipment & margins of error... along with variation within the plant samples.

Hint, hint... speak with the lab techs... three of them that I know... not the dude on tv nor the reps... talk to the techs.

GM's correct in his read of these cats... they have a set of growers in there that want to take the science & assist other growers in maximizing their techniques/results. Good folks... no one that is fudging the numbers over there... growers. They'l totally be willing to sit with you for an hour if your cool about it... and clear up all the misconceptions.

I don't know about some of the number FSL are getting... good example http://www.kindreviews.com/09/durban-poison-advanced-medical-alternatives/

http://www.kindreviews.com/11/bogglegum-alternative-wellness-center/

those numbers, 20 and 2 for cbd, are dubious.... even the bogglegum's 24.39 is suspect... Dr. Hazekamp, designer of the Holland Method (method FSL uses to test for cannabinoids) is a FOAF... and those numbers simply do not happen or so I'm told. If possible, I'll try to persuade someone more knowledgeable than me to come and explain why.
 
H

haole

102
28
Not hating on anyones knowledge or anything just throwing in the fact that there are no labs in CO yet that have the proper equipment to test the hydrocarbons in cannabis period. Until they do i wouldn't trust really any of their results.

The holland method of hplc is standard and accepted amongst academia as reproducible and accurate... there is not even a standard method to test for volatile terpenes.
 
Melizzard

Melizzard

329
28
Novice growers achieving 20%+?

Is that not possible? I know if it gets the right nutes, the right lighting, and let grow to its full potential, it does great. It is a weed, is it not? I mean if you have a strain that is consistently head-wrecking, isn't that part of the innate characteristic of that particular strain? Obviously, the potency would vary a bit, due to noviceness, but over 20 should be possible for anyone growing a decent strain .... shouldn't it? Gotta say I only ran two harvests, but they were pretty damn nice, if I do say so ... Altitude seemed to think so too. :) Guess I'm just lucky?

xxoo
Mel
 
E

EuDiesel

39
8
Not hating on anyones knowledge or anything just throwing in the fact that there are no labs in CO yet that have the proper equipment to test the hydrocarbons in cannabis period. Until they do i wouldn't trust really any of their results.

Hydrocarbons are molecules more basic than what we're trying to detect. Hydrocarbons, such as butane, contain only hydrogen and carbon. THC is much larger and complex than these molecules and don't contain significant vapor pressure for such a test. Furthermore, a VOC test is not very selective -- and since we're mainly interested in THC, CBD, and CBN this is not very useful.

I feel the biggest problem with analytical chemistry is making sure your answer makes sense and is reproducible. Its easy to make a machine spit out answers but usable data is the tricky part. The most time I spent in undergrad for Instrumental lab was either preparing samples or going over my data to write a lab report.

That's when you notice, hey this data makes NO sense...why? what happened? why is the GC-MS spitting out molecules from the database that should look nothing like what we're expecting? Machine error, calibration; user error, calibration. Much less time is (as much as CSI would have you believe) spent on the actual machine receiving data than the PREP and the RESULTS. You spend a lot of your time/work making sure you make a statistically sound number of samples to confidently say what you think is true is actually true.

I would think HPLC would be the preferred method. Honestly though, nothing is stopping them from using at least two separate sources to verify the results. I guess its all down to time and cost; accuracy is academia is much greater than for these purposes.

I would love to see how FSL and the such works. I'll have to look into that.
 

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