The Crystal Palace is back, now with a Spiderfarmer SE5000.

[PK1]

I want to talk about something I've discussed in my other threads, but after a couple years of playing with this system I believe it has been a real game changer. This is really valuable info for anyone doing drain to waste hydroponics at scale. But I know many in the industry already use similar systems to this. This is just a simple way to scale it down to homegrower size.

One of the single best investments I have made is installing this UV sterilizer. The stainless steel cylinder strapped to the corner.View attachment 1202788 It let's me recycle all the runoff as well as the dehumidifier water.

I have 2 reservoirs, stage 1 is a "dirty" 50 gallon holding tank and stage 2 is a "clean" 20 gallon reservoir that the plants are fed from.
I start by filling the 50 gallon stage 1 holding tank with nutrient solution at about 1.2ec, 5.7ph, then I fill the 20 gallon res by passing the nutrient solution from the dirty res through a 5 micron and 1 micron canister filter, then through the UV chamber into the clean res. I'll then dose it with H2O2 and add any additional nutes if I desire a higher ec or whatever.. and that 20 gallons is now "clean" and ready to feed the plants.
Over the next week or so my runoff gets dumped back into the dirty holding tank along with the water from the dehumidifier, they generally combine to balance out pretty well and mix with the remaining fresh nutrient solution. This makes the 50 gallon tank get used up a lot slower than if I were doing drain to waste, and I use all of the nutrients, very little gets wasted.

After about a week when the 50 gallon tank is getting low I rinse the plants to reset the ec in the wool and start over again with a fresh 50 gallons of nutrient solution.

It's an excellent hybrid way of using up runoff while still using a large portion of fresh nutrients. If I were growing on a large scale, this method would be 100% used to save on nutrient costs. But even at a small scale I've found it's made nutrient handling much simpler.
A float switch in the clean res to keep it always full, and a condensate pump to direct runoff to the dirty tank are the last things this system needs to be kinda hands off, as it is I dump runoff manually every couple days and top up the clean res manually once a day. It means I only need to make nutrients once every 7-10 days, otherwise it's just keeping the res topped up.

Thanks for the write up. Space is definitely key here, but this explains exactly why you don't care for algae. One thing i have read is that UV light does effects nutrients. Obviously you don't seem to have this issue.

 

[Dirtbag]

I went back through my rockin rockwool revival thread to see how this strain looked last time at the end of week 5, because it's looking much healthier to me this time. Wasn't sure if it was just in my head but looking back, by week 6 I already had quite a bit of fading stigmas with not a lot of new white fluffy ones emerging.
Compared to this grow which is still almost all white hairs coming up on the end of week 5. Looks like she could go a fair bit longer in 12/12 this time if things continue on this track.

This was the wedding crasher week 5 last run

And here it was in week 6. Ripening a little early imho. Which lines up with what @tobh is seeing this run in his grow, so I have to wonder if that hard second strip plays a role in causing an early finish.. noticeably more dark withered stigmas.

Compared to the buds this run which at the end of week 5 look to be still cranking it out in their bulking phase. They seem much healthier.

 

[Dirtbag]

Thanks for the write up. Space is definitely key here, but this explains exactly why you don't care for algae. One thing i have read is that UV light does effects nutrients. Obviously you don't seem to have this issue.

If you recirculate the same solution through UV over and over again it can cause certain elements to break down I've read, but just passing through once in the case of fresh nutrient, or a few times in the case of the runoff, doesn't seem to affect it at all.

 

[tobh]

hmmm.... that's another factor i didn't think of. the second defoliation is definitely a key factor in this run and even if the trichomes are still all clear, there are significantly more dried pistils at this point in the grow than I've seen on any other plants I've grown. however, i am also starting to see the beginning signs of foxtailing as well, which is likely due to light intensity which I will dial back a bit as I do NOT want a repeat of last run. It's either the MOAB causing the new growth or it's the light intensity. Will have confirmation if it's the lighting in a few days.

Either way, week six and change is far too early for the level of maturity I'm seeing in the flowers imo, and that aligns with what you saw last run.

 

[Dirtbag]

hmmm.... that's another factor i didn't think of. the second defoliation is definitely a key factor in this run and even if the trichomes are still all clear, there are significantly more dried pistils at this point in the grow than I've seen on any other plants I've grown. however, i am also starting to see the beginning signs of foxtailing as well, which is likely due to light intensity which I will dial back a bit as I do NOT want a repeat of last run. It's either the MOAB causing the new growth or it's the light intensity. Will have confirmation if it's the lighting in a few days.

Either way, week six and change is far too early for the level of maturity I'm seeing in the flowers imo, and that aligns with what you saw last run.

Yeah im trying to learn something here as I think a pattern is emerging. I also felt the last one started ripening too early around week 6, and wasn't really sure why. I knew the second hard strip stressed them as I was finding the occasional immature seed. The main reason I didn't go as hard this time. But now seeing them thrive much more so than last round, makes me think that second hard strip could be more detrimental than I originally thought.
Again that first hard strip is a no brainer.. but the second one... jury is still out.

 

[Observationist]

And here it was in week 6. Ripening a little early imho. Which lines up with what @tobh is seeing this run in his grow, so I have to wonder if that hard second strip plays a role in causing an early finish.. noticeably more dark withered stigmas.

the plant could possibly be thinking its under attack and it needs to flower/finish ASAP

 

[tobh]

Yeah im trying to learn something here as I think a pattern is emerging. I also felt the last one started ripening too early around week 6, and wasn't really sure why. I knew the second hard strip stressed them as I was finding the occasional immature seed. The main reason I didn't go as hard this time. But now seeing them thrive much more so than last round, makes me think that second hard strip could be more detrimental than I originally thought.
Again that first hard strip is a no brainer.. but the second one... jury is still out.

validation will be had next time i run these cuts. i'll repeat the same process, less such an intense day 21 strip. if both of us see the same results using known cuts, then we might be able to put that one to bed on this technique. it won't be next run but the one after that when i'll likely run these cuts again -- entirely dependent on how the smoke is obviously.

 

[Dirtbag]

validation will be had next time i run these cuts. i'll repeat the same process, less such an intense day 21 strip. if both of us see the same results using known cuts, then we might be able to put that one to bed on this technique. it won't be next run but the one after that when i'll likely run these cuts again -- entirely dependent on how the smoke is obviously.

Yeah a few things changed between cycles for me so I'm not sure, but it does seem suspicious. With the extra light in here now the plants are eating a lot more and I'm not getting the high ec runoff from buildup that plagued me before. So that could be contributing too.. not really sure. But I am feeling thankfull that I left more leaves on this time.

 

[PK1]

Yeah a few things changed between cycles for me so I'm not sure, but it does seem suspicious. With the extra light in here now the plants are eating a lot more and I'm not getting the high ec runoff from buildup that plagued me before. So that could be contributing too.. not really sure. But I am feeling thankfull that I left more leaves on this time.

validation will be had next time i run these cuts. i'll repeat the same process, less such an intense day 21 strip. if both of us see the same results using known cuts, then we might be able to put that one to bed on this technique. it won't be next run but the one after that when i'll likely run these cuts again -- entirely dependent on how the smoke is obviously.

i wonder if the mix of lights between the LED and HPS has a factor here, just cuz DB does see a noticeable change in feeding?

 

[Dirtbag]

i wonder if the mix of lights between the LED and HPS has a factor here, just cuz DB does see a noticeable change in feeding?

I think less to do with the mix and more to do with the overall increase in intensity corner to corner. I have no doubt that almost doubling the amount of usable light has made these plants a lot more vigorous in flower, and increased the amount of food they can process.

 

[tobh]

i wonder if the mix of lights between the LED and HPS has a factor here, just cuz DB does see a noticeable change in feeding?

we've actually been feeding relatively similar. i've been a little heavier than him up until this point, but I dropped the EC quite a bit with yesterday's res. This is actually the first run I'm seeing any real signs of nutrient burn at all with this line, too. so i think there's definitely something about the day 21 strip that's quite relevant to what I'm seeing compared with what DB has seen before.

the mixed spectrum is also something that's pretty significant although i'm under full spectrum LED and he's HPS + full spectrum LED. aside from that I think we're pretty much aligned.

 

[Anthem]

It seems to be all over the place, that's for sure. I think I might finally bite the bullet and go ahead and order like 5 lbs of Front Row Ag's bloom as well and try out their schedule next run. I've ran just their two part for four or five runs now and started adding MOAB last run as I've had excellent success with MOAB in the past.

I really wonder if there's something to using the full three part for flowering cycle with this line of nutrients. I just don't want 25lbs of bloom which is something that'll only be used half as much as the part A and part B. doesn't make sense to spend the almost $200 on a 25 lb bag when I'm already in close to $400 for the part A and part B.

Thinking that's gonna be the next thing to really focus on now that I'm content with a method for once. Only taken like ten years to settle on how I want to do this thing lol

i wonder if the mix of lights between the LED and HPS has a factor here, just cuz DB does see a noticeable change in feeding?

I for one do not believe the LED vs HPS has any merit. It is either too much light, too much PK Booster or a combo. The last run I ran nothing but base nutrients. No fox tails, but then again I ran some spiked punch with just base nutrients and it did foxtail so I am leaning towards light being part of the equation.

 

[tobh]

I for one do not believe the LED vs HPS has any merit. It is either too much light, too much PK Booster or a combo. The last run I ran nothing but base nutrients. No fox tails, but then again I ran some spiked punch with just base nutrients and it did foxtail so I am leaning towards light being part of the equation.

i'm leaning that way too as last run i had a pretty bad bout of foxtails due to running out of head room and I chalk it up 100% to being light influence. The same strain hadn't foxtailed so hard the first time I ran it and light upgrades were the only factor that changed. Don't have the same problem to such a severity this run but the tops are definitely closer to the lights than ideal again. Will dial the lights back to about 85% in a few days and keep an eye on things to see if they improve.

 

[Anthem]

i'm leaning that way too as last run i had a pretty bad bout of foxtails due to running out of head room and I chalk it up 100% to being light influence. The same strain hadn't foxtailed so hard the first time I ran it and light upgrades were the only factor that changed. Don't have the same problem to such a severity this run but the tops are definitely closer to the lights than ideal again. Will dial the lights back to about 85% in a few days and keep an eye on things to see if they improve.

The only thing I would add it that once you see the foxtailing the process has already began. So you need to stay on top of it. Once they start to go there is no real stopping them without consequences.

 

[tobh]

The only thing I would add it that once you see the foxtailing the process has already began. So you need to stay on top of it. Once they start to go there is no real stopping them without consequences.

yeah, that's my one bitch now... luckily it looks to be confined to only a couple flowers for now, so i'm gonna let it ride for a few days before dialing the lights back again. at the peak bulking stage so just wanna make sure the girls are getting all the light they can use, but if they're gonna go foxy on me, i'll take away some of the brightness. gotta keep that pimp hand strong.

 

[tobh]

I for one do not believe the LED vs HPS has any merit. It is either too much light, too much PK Booster or a combo. The last run I ran nothing but base nutrients. No fox tails, but then again I ran some spiked punch with just base nutrients and it did foxtail so I am leaning towards light being part of the equation.

yup, pinned the root cause i think. finally calculated the DLI per the manufacturer's ppfd chart and it's currently sitting at 77.33, which based on some quick googling ideally it'd max out at 65 for flower stage. gonna dial the lights back to ~85%, which should put it at ~65

 

[Anthem]

yup, pinned the root cause i think. finally calculated the DLI per the manufacturer's ppfd chart and it's currently sitting at 77.33, which based on some quick googling ideally it'd max out at 65 for flower stage. gonna dial the lights back to ~85%, which should put it at ~65

To be honest, I think there is an easy way to determine the time to start dialing the lights back. I thought of it while reading this thread, once the plants start to decrease eating and drinking it is time to start decreasing the DLI. But there is some odd things about this, I tried using this formula and it backfired on me. I took the DLI the last day of Veg and applied the same DLI for 12/12 and the plants were not happy.

 

[Dirtbag]

To be honest, I think there is an easy way to determine the time to start dialing the lights back. I thought of it while reading this thread, once the plants start to decrease eating and drinking it is time to start decreasing the DLI. But there is some odd things about this, I tried using this formula and it backfired on me. I took the DLI the last day of Veg and applied the same DLI for 12/12 and the plants were not happy.

Yeah i think you need to drop DLI at transition and work back up. I was somewhere between 50-60 during late veg, and 40 at transition. Over stretch I increased it back up to around 50-55 DLI or so. 60 and over you really need Co2 I believe.

 

[Anthem]

Yeah i think you need to drop DLI at transition and work back up. I was somewhere between 50-60 during late veg, and 40 at transition. Over stretch I increased it back up to around 50-55 DLI or so. 60 and over you really need Co2 I believe.

I should have explained it better. I was at about 50 percent. Thinking something like this. 50 percent x 18 hours to 9 hours at 100 percent. So if I took 9 hours at 100 percent and divide 9 so 12 hours I would end up at 75 percent. Plants could not handle it even with CO2. It seems like around the end to middle of week 3 they can take 100 percent of the light and I usually start backing it off by the end of week 6. Past the 6 week time is when I usually start to see the foxtailing issue but it is also strain dependent.

 

[tobh]

I should have explained it better. I was at about 50 percent. Thinking something like this. 50 percent x 18 hours to 9 hours at 100 percent. So if I took 9 hours at 100 percent and divide 9 so 12 hours I would end up at 75 percent. Plants could not handle it even with CO2. It seems like around the end to middle of week 3 they can take 100 percent of the light and I usually start backing it off by the end of week 6. Past the 6 week time is when I usually start to see the foxtailing issue but it is also strain dependent.

yeah, it's right on queue from my experience as well. i suspected it was gonna happen again given i'm running 720w full spectrum LED in a 4x4 tent -- way over powered for what it is honestly. sure enough two days after cranking the lights to 100% foxtailing has started showing up, and the lights had been at 95% for the past week as well so no matter which way I cut it, DLI has been too high. The added benefit of dropping it down now is I don't have to worry about the calcium def so much now either. Without pushing so much light the girls shouldn't be asking for so much calcium, theoretically.