the use of molasses

[lazarus718]

Very talented use of your personal quote Dee!!!
:weed-sign:

 

[420alldaze]

ive seen the difference in my plants with and without it. i say yes they definetly benefit from the use of mollasses. yup yup! peacentreez 42o

 

[squiggly]

Sucrose uptake is possible through roots, this is a fact.

Hypothesized to occur through both antiports and symports. There is no accepted explanation yet. Although H+/sucrose symports have been shown in YOUNG plants, it is widely believed either a Na+/H+ or a K+/H+ antiport is linked to uptake of sucrose.

There is plenty of research available out there if you know how to look, there is no need to speculate on many of these things.

That said, there is no specific cannabis research--so there is always room to doubt. However it stands to reason its possible and might be good for the plants.

Also worth thinking about applications of foliar with sucrose--there is definitely alot of sugar transport ability in the leaves--not sure if the outer layer will have the right ports, but its worth a shot says I.

 

[OctoberDee]

Very talented use of your personal quote Dee!!!
:weed-sign:

I guess that's why they call it dope!
:bong-hits:

 

[Seamaiden]

Sucrose uptake is possible through roots, this is a fact.

Hypothesized to occur through both antiports and symports. There is no accepted explanation yet. Although H+/sucrose symports have been shown in YOUNG plants, it is widely believed either a Na+/H+ or a K+/H+ antiport is linked to uptake of sucrose.

There is plenty of research available out there if you know how to look, there is no need to speculate on many of these things.

That said, there is no specific cannabis research--so there is always room to doubt. However it stands to reason its possible and might be good for the plants.

Also worth thinking about applications of foliar with sucrose--there is definitely alot of sugar transport ability in the leaves--not sure if the outer layer will have the right ports, but its worth a shot says I.

Every abstract I've ever read is discussing transport through root tissues. Are the molecules of simple sugars truly small enough to pass through cell membranes/ports? Since I got myself a new gadget this last year (a 26gal, 2.2gph power sprayer tank) I can certainly experiment with this, but I'm not married to molasses and am curious about other sugars.

I've used molasses, malted barley extract, date sugar, palm sugar, panela/panocha, which is a type of raw cane sugar used in Hispanic cooking. I have not (yet?) used agave, honey, or refined cane sugars.

Google Scholar is my friend. In fact, I have an acquaintance who's a research assistant, pays big bucks to have access to publications and papers (something like $20K/annum). She called me one day a few years ago complaining that she couldn't find any citations on a paper she'd been hired to help research. I plugged it into Google Scholar and BAMMO, citations galore! She was pissed, because I did it for free where she's paying all that money.

 

[squiggly]

Sucrose is in molasses (and I'm guessing is the major component in most but could be wrong)

I'm willing to be they can also take up other pentose/hexose sugars, especially in their respective pyranose forms. This is just a guess based on the biochemistry that I know. Sadly my specialty is organic and thus my understanding of biochemistry isn't deep enough to be more certain.

I can only say that there have been shown specific protein transporters which take up sucrose in roots. IE, roots can take up sucrose. Sucrose does not and won't diffuse across a membrane, ever. It's too big, and even if it weren't, it's too polar. This is facilitated diffusion/transport at the least and more than likely it is active transport. It is worth it to expend energy on uptake of sucrose, because its eventual breakdown generates many times the amount of energy required to establish a proton or potassium gradient.

One experiment shows that overfeeding sucrose can cause photosynthesis to stop (because there is an abundance of energy--this is probably a step controlled by feedback inhibition). Causing leaves to lose color as un-needed chlorophylls are broken down.

Edit:

Study discussing feedback inhibition by sucrose (impeding further sucrose production).

TLDR for the study:

They ultimately found feedback inhibition was occuring. If I understand correctly build up of sugars causes most of them to be phosphorylated which restricts ATP synthesis due to dropping phosphorous levels. The ratio of ATP/ADP is the controlling factor in inhibiting photosynthesis. So as ATP production falls and the ratio gets smaller--photosynthesis stops to allow for sugars to be metabolized and ultimately return the ATP/ADP ratio to higher levels.

TLDR for feedback inhibition:

When a intermediate or final product in a metabolic chain of enzymes (proteins which build/break down molecules) is an inhibitor of an enzyme earlier in the chain (at a given concentration).

 

[Seamaiden]

In other words, it could definitely be too much of a good thing.

Interesting paper, gonna have to chew on that. I tend to use low levels of sugars, mostly because I'm really cheap and I want things to last.

 

[Bluenote]

Have you tried any of the monosacharides such as d-ribose?

 

[Bluenote]

*Hydroponic
Molasses contains the disaccharide sucrose. This sugar does NOT substitute as a flowering enhancer in hydroponic gardening. ***Sucrose cannot be transferred through a plant's cell membrane and therefore can not be used by the plant for cellular production. Other substitute "sugar boosters" for hydroponics contain deoxyribose, lyxose, ribose, xylulose, and xylose. These simple and complex carbohydrates are the main components of cellular reproduction, and deliver an immediately usable form of energy to the plant, which would normally rely on a soil-type organic medium for beneficial microbial activity******

Nice attempted obfuscation to cover that the author doesn't have much of a clue beyond knowing the nomenclature. Nor will he have aclue as to why the simple sugars show so much promise , which at the end is accentuation of the ATP transport pathways ,production and uptake and further effiency of the Krebs cycle.

Ordered my refractometer , gotta get a Sap meter yet though , Keep in mind that Brix levels and sap PH will play a role in pest resistance too.

 

[OctoberDee]

Ok so I found a direct link between molasses and it's effectiveness in plant growth. Perhaps it doesn't directly affect a plants ability to produce a better crop via it's own breakdown and root absorption but given the fact most professional growers (and hobbyists too) use mycorrhiza in their soil mixtures, molasses (sucrose)would have an added benefit. Mycos feed off of sucrose to help a plants ability to take up phosphorus and nitrogen... I cut and paste from wikipedia

This mutualistic association provides the fungus with relatively constant and direct access to carbohydrates, such as glucose and sucrose.[4] The carbohydrates are translocated from their source (usually leaves) to root tissue and on to the plant's fungal partners. In return, the plant gains the benefits of the mycelium's higher absorptive capacity for water and mineral nutrients due to the comparatively large surface area of mycelium: root ratio, thus improving the plant's mineral absorption capabilities.[5]


nes pas?

 

[PurpleLungs]

Sucunat is dehydrated molasses. It looks kinda like rock sugar and you can get it at some health food stores.

I\'ve used it before and it works great. Many people up in Humboldt swear by Sucunat. I like it better than liquid molasses.

Although I stopped using molasses/sucunat indoors because I was having gray mold problems. Molasses is known to increase your chances of mold, especially indoors. If you do use it I would stop during the last 2 weeks (especially if you have big nugs).

 

[El Cerebro]

Anybody know a cheap bulk source for sucanat?

 

[Seamaiden]

Have you tried any of the monosacharides such as d-ribose?

No, but my curiosity is certainly piqued.

Nice attempted obfuscation to cover that the author doesn't have much of a clue beyond knowing the nomenclature. Nor will he have aclue as to why the simple sugars show so much promise , which at the end is accentuation of the ATP transport pathways ,production and uptake and further effiency of the Krebs cycle.

Ordered my refractometer , gotta get a Sap meter yet though , Keep in mind that Brix levels and sap PH will play a role in pest resistance too.

It has been suggested to me that Brix may play a role in susceptibility to root aphid infestation. The issues inherent in this are, for me, rather obvious. First, not many of us are testing sap Brix levels (I'm not doing that just yet). Second biggest issue is that I'm not sure a blanket thought can be applied to all root aphid species. The caveat there is that my mind is open to the idea, I mean, if an organism's immune system is susceptible to invasion, does it really matter which organism actually invades? Final question for me would be, what would pest-preventing parameters be?

I like the Krebs cycle. It's crunchy.

 

[glaxo151]

Nuts.com ships fast & is 2.39 lb if you buy 25lbs.

 

[El Cerebro]

Nuts.com ships fast & is 2.39 lb if you buy 25lbs.

That site has other interesting sugars too: http://nuts.com/cookingbaking/sweeteners/natural-sugar-replacements/

Anyone ever considered sorbitol? It has some interesting effects on us apes, not sure about plants though, need to go read..

 

[Bluenote]

That site has other interesting sugars too: http://nuts.com/cookingbaking/sweeteners/natural-sugar-replacements/

Anyone ever considered sorbitol? It has some interesting effects on us apes, not sure about plants though, need to go read..

Pretty close to sodium sorbistat , a banned preservative, Might want to take a look at ( as I've said before) the monosacharides such as D-Ribose , additionally there *might* be a chance that things such as maltodextrin or straight dextrose might be of some use.

The thing with molasses is all the rest of the stuff it carries besides the carbs , iron , sulfur etc.etc.

ATP transport pathways in plants seems to be and area where there is a dearth of research , I'm not sure how well some of the known science as applicable to warmblooded mammals will translate. In theory the feeding of creatine monohydrate might show some benefit , however I doubt that plants can assimilate most of the forms available.Perhaps the alleged "micronised" versions but I doubt it.

D-Ribose in conjunction with glutamine may well be worth a shot though.


edit: hey that website is a nice find , good prices on dextrose and sucanat...wonder if xylitol is worth playing with?

 

[Bluenote]

No, but my curiosity is certainly piqued.

It has been suggested to me that Brix may play a role in susceptibility to root aphid infestation. The issues inherent in this are, for me, rather obvious. First, not many of us are testing sap Brix levels (I'm not doing that just yet). Second biggest issue is that I'm not sure a blanket thought can be applied to all root aphid species. The caveat there is that my mind is open to the idea, I mean, if an organism's immune system is susceptible to invasion, does it really matter which organism actually invades? Final question for me would be, what would pest-preventing parameters be?

I like the Krebs cycle. It's crunchy.

Pretty much the theory runs to ( simplistically speaking) staying at around 11-12 brix and 6.4 or so sap PH , I've been playing with the idea of brix levels for some time but it was a guy at another site that put me on to the sap meter idea....

I guess it's just my gearhead/tinkerers incessant need to overcomplicate things , I simplified my nute program , now I gotta go complicate something else......someone just slap me would you.

 

[Bluenote]

Incidentally here's one I'll bounce off y'all , though it is from outdoor , and it IS anecdotal....however , and some here will alreadu know of some of the benefits of the Willow Tree......one of my outdoor spots is in a grove of Willows , for several years running plants in that location have show significantly les pest problems , in addition plants actually *in* the ground under the Willows and in pots under the canopy but still receiving light exhibited better growth , this I can only attribute ( hypothetical) to the fact that Willows are a natural source various hormones ( you can make a decent rooting hormone with Willows) and other beneficials , lots of folks will know the old aspirin cloning trick , aspirin was first synthesised from Willows and white willow bark tea is still a fine headache remedy.

Yeah yeah I know it's crazy , I'm loony....but some plants do have a synergistic relationship with other plants.

 

[El Cerebro]

Pretty close to sodium sorbistat , a banned preservative,

Huh? Sorbitol is a slow metabolizing (for humans) natural sugar found in peaches.

So Bluenote, all this other stuff, have you applied any of it in your garden? Can you share some practical experience?

 

[Bluenote]

Huh? Sorbitol is a slow metabolizing (for humans) natural sugar found in peaches.

So Bluenote, all this other stuff, have you applied any of it in your garden? Can you share some practical experience?

Actually no it's not , it's a sugar alcohol , and it's not solely derived from peaches , it occurs in most all the stone fruits , apples and some berries. As for Sorbistat it's potassium sorbate *now* (started as a sodium sorbate which was flammable ,explosive and all sorts of cool stuff) and is a carboxylic acid derivative , there's a step or two in between , but the carboxylic acid occurs where?

Berries of certain types.


As for " practical experience" , did I say that? If you don't want me to toss possibles out there say the word and I'll shut up , I think it was pretty clear that most of this stuff is theoretical , beyond measurement of Brix levels and Sap PH , and those have been around for a LONG time in other ag industries.

WHat have I tried , most of what other folks have , sucanat , honey , corn syrups , molasses in dried and liquid forms , beet pulp ( soil amendment or tea component) and I'm currently 2 weeks into a 10 plant maltodextrin experiment. Problem is that TEN plants doesn't mean diddly squat. Numbers for trial complicate things with this plant , to put it in perspective , if I'm trying something new out in a given grove it's a 4 or 5 hundred unit sample.

Back to Sorbitol , I suggest that you explore some of it's other uses and decide whether you want it in your plants systems , it does seem to offer some possibilites.

As goes comparison with Molasses , folks sometimes seem to forget that it's not just the *carbs* , it's all the rest of the goodies it carries to. So then the problem becomes one of replacing those traces etc if one goes to a more efficient source of carbs that doesn't carry those factors.

And that brings us in a roundabout way back to that sulfur content and it's effect on aroma and flavor through terpenes/oid profiles , IN the various fruits there's evidence , anecdotal though it may be ( me I tend to listen to these guys who are fourth generation orchardmen and the like) that feeding of simple sugars in conjunction with sulfur magnesium etc enhances flavors , aroma and in the end " counter appeal" , and that's without addressing the wine industry , by the way Sorbistat ( potassium sorbate) is still commonly used in the wine industry as a preservative and ( this may be KEY down the road) ***to inhibit mold in certain dairy products*** , in wines you use it to *stop* fermentation , kills most yeasts reproductive wise, Becomes Sorbic acid , now here's a rather interesting connection for you *some* yeasts , along with Trichoderma , Pencillin and some other molds can detox the sorbates and you end up with a form of pentadiene............which is the smell in kerosene.


And where I'm hypothesing about items that might be useful from human athletic endeavor I believe I was clear that it was a potential hypothesis? Since it's clear that ATP transmission pathways thoug more simplistic than in humans play a key role why not explore the available science and the avenues it might offer. And those avenues may offer some benefits if the science can be made to apply.

In closing , it seems that my theorising may have ruffled your feathers somehow , if that's the case then please advise and I'll just lurk instead since that was not my intent.

By the way I thought that the monosaccharides were worth a look because they possibly could be more metabolisable? If anyone has an opinion on that I'd be glad to hear it , I'm sitting on five pounds of D-Ribose and 3 lbs of glutamine along with creatine monohydrate.....the last I have my doubts about being effective in plants , the uptake and metabolisation probably being the first hurdle , and while it *may* occur in a plant naturally I;m not aware of A plant that carries it. Of any type.

Damn I keep thinking of facets that might be pertinent , incidentally beet pulp is a very rich source of L-glutamine , so are some of the plant sources folks are composting and using in " teas" . there's a guy on another site who does a lot of stuff from natural plant sources , but folks can't discuss it sometimes without losing their perspective and their minds.

And some folks lose their minds too when you suggest old ,old tricks that once were a necessity , I've been read the riot act over lemon and lime juice to adjust PH and before molasses got " rediscovered" I used to get a bunch of crap about that too.

And yeah I tend to tinker too much , but one needs a hobby 'eh , and this in the long run is a lot less expensive than my internal combustion jones and not nearly as hard on the body.