There is no such thing as a "cal-mag" deficiency...

[lurch]

Why ya go back to ionic six?
Really seems weird that canna specific nutes are so............incomplete.
:p

 

[Seamaiden]

I've been using this chart and I thought I had a Mag def. Some of my stems are purple but it's not in the veins of the leaves. Some of the new growth is a light green. I've also been reading about ph. Before I started adding lime I got a soul tester that tells ph and moisture. Best 13.00 I've spent thus far. Ph was around 5 and my soil is wet. I've been over watering. Can this be the cause of the deficiency?

Hi hotmomma. I've found that it's more helpful to search educational, agricultural and university sites when trying to figure out what's going on. Those reddened stems are, IME, a sign of P uptake or utilization issues, we could call it a deficiency since it's not being used even if there is sufficient P available. That's where things like soil temp, pH and moisture levels (vapor pressure deficit) come in handy, too.

If the new growth is light green, that's actually rather common in rapidly growing plants, but if it persists then we'd want to consider a deficiency.

To answer your question, absolutely YES, pH being that far off can definitely cause deficiencies, which are actually uptake or utilization issues.

Very interesting Sea..

But I think I have a CalMag deficiency.. im super late in flower & in mid bloom I ran out of CalMag so 4 a good chunk of bloom ive been running RO water with no added CalMag & im noticing very small rust spots on the top leafs.... I would of guessed that was a CalMag deficiency bcuz that usually happens 2 my calmag beast mode plants like True OG Kush that love calmag deep in flowering..

my leaf aint on the chart its nice & healthy green but with new rust spots<<<<Most OG Kush strains will do this late in bloom & I always thought they wanted more calmag..

Brother, that's not a "cal-mag" deficiency, that's a classic calcium deficiency. New growth, necrotic spots, classic.

No such thing, yet every grower has used Cal-Mag at some point.

Regardless, if I dont add cal mag to my feed / water my plants look rough as shit! Give them calmag and neem and they tick along alreet.

You have put waaaaaay more time into this than I have though Sae so not looking to rock the boat!

The issue I have with "cal-mag" supplements is the ratios offered. Most are in the 2:1-3:1 range, that is extremely insufficient. The ratios should be at a minimum of 4:1 and that's a bare minimum, 6:1 is better and I've read that (soils) with a ratio of Ca:Mg at 15:1 may be even better.

If you try separating out your Ca from your Mg feedings, you'll quickly learn what I learned, which is that Ca must be laid down in plant tissues from the start, that Ca- is difficult to correct in terms of reversing any problems observed, and that Mg- is stupid easy to correct due to its mobility and the cheapness of Epsom salt (aka MgSO4).

K, more reading! I knew this would stir up some pots, but the beans had burned and stuck to the bottom and I felt they needed the stirring.

 

[sixstring]

I haven't totally stopped using the jacks , just trying to use up all the damn gallons of ionic and advanced I have.takes twice as long to feed my ladies with this other shit, so if im in a hurry I bust out the jacks.cant wait till this other crap is gone :)

good to see ya bro montiania ;)

 

[caveman4.20]

Don't mix the beans if they burnt ....keep the burnt beans at the bottom...gently scoop out the beans at the top and they might still taste good:sorry:

 

[lurch]

Now............l crave blackbeans and rice,awesome.

 

[Seamaiden]

Cal and mag use eachother or need eachother to be ?properly? Absorbed maybe this is why they are commonly deficient at the same time....from the top of my head plant uses atleast 3x more calcium then magnesium...

Ca and Mg play different roles in soil structure and in the plant, but the more important element of the two here is Ca. Ca, in order to be utilized properly, requires sufficient amounts of available B (boron) but only a little is really needed. Your observations closely mirror mine, the plants need at least 3x the amount of Ca as opposed to Mg in most scenarios. But what I've learned by separating the feeds (when I was doing chem salts) was that I could easily alternate those feedings, heavy on Ca one feeding, then Mg another, and the plants performed very well.

Really, what this is about is balancing your feeding, watering, media, and environment.

Goo..I think mainly, she is supporting the theory of people having a Calcium deficiency or Magnesium deficiency rather than both at the same time..more or less to draw a line. Although, I don't think it is impossible to have both deficiencies at the same time though. And her point, is definitely not that plants do not require Cal or Mag, but more to the point that every deficiency shown is not always a Cal or Mag deficiency, but more to the point it could be another nutrient lacking or over applied.
I would get some more Cal-Mag and have it on hand, especially for RO and especially for OG.

Well now here's the thing, you can observe both deficiencies, but they are not one and the same thing. That's why I discussed what a Ca- looks like vs a Mg- because they are different in terms of mobility, and therefore present differently. That doesn't mean they don't 'need' each other, all the elements are needed in their various forms, but again, what we need to learn is balance.

Reverse osmosis water has been stripped of all minerals, many of those in the form of carbonates or bicarbonates that essentially lock Ca up. For example, my own well water is very high in carbonates, and I figure that, due to the presence of a cave nearby that features Ca-based crystal structures, it's likely that a good portion of the carbonates are CaCO3, perhaps MgCO3. I have tight, heavy clay soils, indicating a strong presence of Mg but little Ca (Mg causes soils to 'tighten' up, whereas Ca causes them to 'loosen' up, become easier for plants to penetrate). When trying to grow simply using my untreated tap water as the main source for Ca and Mg, I failed miserably. Once I cleaned (stripped via RO/DI) the water and then added back those essential minerals in an available form, things went much better. Then I separated Ca from Mg and the learning curve got STEEP. Turned out that The White isn't a Cal-Mag whore, she needs CALCIUM, and lots and lots of it, as an example (so you growers who do a lot of OGs that you think need lots of Cal-Mag, maybe what they're demanding isn't the combination as much as it is the one more important element of Ca).

K, off to read some more, I don't want each post to get too long and I've got a problem with that anyway. D'oh! :o

 

[caveman4.20]

Navy bean soup :banghead: I'm starving!

 

[Seamaiden]

You guys have never had my beans & rice. I'm pretty wicked when it comes to the beans & rice.


Smoking Gun, you've pretty much nailed my direction and thoughts. I can only quibble on one thing, the Z-, which would occur at the top of the plant, not the bottom as a Mg- would. Based on my reading it's almost impossible to cause a Ca+, but that's with specific regard to soils and organic agriculture, not hydroponic anything or chemical salts.

@Cort -- you've pretty much got it, but think more in terms of human nutrition. We need proteins, a whole suite of them, in order to build our various tissues. In order for our muscles to contract and work properly, we must have not only sufficient Ca and K in our systems, but those elements must be in the correct ratios or our muscles literally will not contract properly, as it's the reaction between them that causes muscle fibers to contract. That's why when we've got leg cramps or sore muscles our mothers (all of whom weren't dietitians like mine but wise nonetheless) would say to drink a glass of milk and have a banana. This is just an example.

i cannot agree on calcium being essential to weed growing after using jacks classics for months and never adding cal or mag to my plants.i run promix/coco with r/o water and im telling ya other than 1 or 2 plants that looked like they needed some help i never used the stuff on anythingand after those plants were gone i went months without needing calmag on anything.i just started feeding heavy on stuff that looked def and they pulled through fine.the jacks has plenty of mag but not a drop of calcium.so i would say the ratio for healthy plants is 1 to 100 cal to mag.theres something about the jacks classics that must balance shit out,maybe iron or zinc levels.but im back using ionic and a/n and i been forced to use calmag almost weekly again.

It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. Basic plant physiology demands there must be some Ca for basic plant functions. IIRC, Pro-Mix has a bit of lime added to it, no? I'll have to double-check my own bags, but I'm pretty sure what I've got has some lime added due to the high levels of peat.

Try using UK water and no Cal Mag in Coco!

Tell me about the UK water. I assumed much of it was passed through limestone like what I've experienced in California. But if it's not, if it's instead very soft and of low mineral content, then consider me VERY envious of your fine water! Our well water is hard as FUCK and the problems that causes me are many and varied.

 

[lurch]

The lime and the perlite provide all the cal and mag the plants generally require.

 

[sixstring]

The lime and the perlite provide all the cal and mag the plants generally require.

I would agree, and im vegging 10+weeks so by the time im done flowering my plants are pretty well root bound. So its my assumption that weed needs very little calcium if everything else is available I.e. jacks has it all so extra calcium is not required.

@Seamaiden im not sure theres much of anything in the promix bx, they dont list it on my bales.i have read somewhere that it comes out around 300ppm new but not sure whats there.i do agree university sites have the best info on general plant care and science but they really are general studies and not many have alot of experience with pot.

 

[Seamaiden]

The lime and the perlite provide all the cal and mag the plants generally require.

The question is what form of lime though, yes? In my direct experience you can easily 'unlock' it in clean, and at minimum pH neutral water, if it's more acidic then the reaction is quicker. I thought perlite was inert, though, and when I use it for growing or cloning that's how I treat it.

I would agree, and im vegging 10+weeks so by the time im done flowering my plants are pretty well root bound. So its my assumption that weed needs very little calcium if everything else is available I.e. jacks has it all so extra calcium is not required.

@Seamaiden im not sure theres much of anything in the promix bx, they dont list it on my bales.i have read somewhere that it comes out around 300ppm new but not sure whats there.i do agree university sites have the best info on general plant care and science but they really are general studies and not many have alot of experience with pot.

But cannabis isn't really that unique. The vast majority of its physiological functions are going to be like most other plants. It produces chlorophyll, has similar ranges of acceptable growing parameters, etc. It's not as though we're comparing carbon-based life forms to, say, sulfur-based (think everything topside of the earth vs those gigantic tube worms, crustaceans, etc, whose life process are chemically completely different, based on the bacteria that consume the nutrients spewed out by the submarine volcanoes). It's not chemosynthesis vs photosynthesis, it's photosynthesis of an annual photoperiodic plant (usually Arabidopsis spp) vs photosynthesis in an annual photoperiodic plant (Cannabis).

Seriously, don't be so quick to dismiss the solid information to be found or the ability to extrapolate that information to cannabis.

Let me go double-check my Pro-Mix really quick. Yup, it's got both dolomitic and calcitic lime for pH adjustment. Depending on how much it may or may not provide sufficient Ca and Mg.

 

[Seamaiden]

The lime and the perlite provide all the cal and mag the plants generally require.

I'm not so sure about that with regard to the perlite. Isn't mostly silica or some form of it? I use very little and try not to use it at all, since it's not renewable. I use rice hulls to lighten up my mixes.

 

[2hotmomma88]

I'm learning Sea. I've ordered a book on marijuana botany. I need to know why the plant needs what it needs so it will all make sense to me. Yeah I can go by step by step instructions to grow but I need to know the science behind it for it to click in my head.

I haven't watered in a couple days and they are looking great! You are always so helpful and insightful. Thank you for all you do!

 

[waayne]

I'm not so sure about that with regard to the perlite. Isn't mostly silica or some form of it? I use very little and try not to use it at all, since it's not renewable. I use rice hulls to lighten up my mixes.

perlite is inert,and has no nutritive value....vermiculite on the other hand does supply some silica.....

 

[Seamaiden]

I'm learning Sea. I've ordered a book on marijuana botany. I need to know why the plant needs what it needs so it will all make sense to me. Yeah I can go by step by step instructions to grow but I need to know the science behind it for it to click in my head.

I haven't watered in a couple days and they are looking great! You are always so helpful and insightful. Thank you for all you do!

If you're into organic, then I cannot recommend Acres, USA strongly enough. It's a magazine, monthly publication. You can go to their site and order a sample copy first.

 

[connoisseurde420]

Awesome info @Seamaiden. Im just starting to mix my own salt nutrientsthis info is very valuble. I was going to do a 2:1 ca:mg. Now I have to reconsider and know that I can bump it up.

 

[Natural]

Reverse osmosis water has been stripped of all minerals, many of those in the form of carbonates or bicarbonates that essentially lock Ca up. For example, my own well water is very high in carbonates, and I figure that, due to the presence of a cave nearby that features Ca-based crystal structures, it's likely that a good portion of the carbonates are CaCO3, perhaps MgCO3. I have tight, heavy clay soils, indicating a strong presence of Mg but little Ca (Mg causes soils to 'tighten' up, whereas Ca causes them to 'loosen' up, become easier for plants to penetrate). When trying to grow simply using my untreated tap water as the main source for Ca and Mg, I failed miserably. Once I cleaned (stripped via RO/DI) the water and then added back those essential minerals in an available form, things went much better. Then I separated Ca from Mg and the learning curve got STEEP. Turned out that The White isn't a Cal-Mag whore, she needs CALCIUM, and lots and lots of it, as an example (so you growers who do a lot of OGs that you think need lots of Cal-Mag, maybe what they're demanding isn't the combination as much as it is the one more important element of Ca).

K, off to read some more, I don't want each post to get too long and I've got a problem with that anyway. D'oh! :eek:

Nice detective work..I love a good mystery..I also failed miserably with well water back on the mountain. :happy:

 

[lurch]

Perlite is................

 

[sixstring]

@Seamaiden what kind of promix do you use, there are several different mixes.i even see it at Home Depot now but its a totally dif mix with a ton of perlite.mine has very little.

 

[waayne]

Perlite is................View attachment 393597

perlite is neutral with a ph of 7.0-7.5
it is sterile ,and inert,and contains no mineral nutrient,it has no buffering capacity.

There is risk of a toxic Al2O3 release if the ph is too low.

The Elemental Analysis listed above,appears to be the chemical compositions,not the actual
nutrient analysis,or availability....If we list them as oxide (%) the analysis looks like this
SiO2 Al2O3 CaO Fe2O3 Na2O K2O
73.1% 15.3% 0.8% 1.05% 3.65% 4.5%

Perlite is inert,

here's a link for those of you interested in information on substrate analysis