There is no such thing as a "cal-mag" deficiency...

[sixstring]

Yeah I know they are getting some, im just trying to explain how little mine get and still look healthy.or maybe my junk aint healthy at all lol.
@Seamaiden, can you list some ready to use products for seperate cal and mag so readers can pick some up and try it?
personally I been trying to figure out why my plants never crashed when I stopped feeding calmag and I keep looking to iron.i picked some up in granular form but I have not tried it yet.and the reason I even thought iron was a thread I read here from dankworth.
for the record I feed my lawn much different than I feed my tomatoes.and I always tried to target specific nutrients based on plant species and the needs of them individually. Cannabis is unique imo.

 

[Smoking Gun]

There is no doubt iron plays a role in plant health, but it does not replace calcium. To be totally honest I have a feeling there is calcium in your Jacks, but it is in a form or forms that do not need to be listed on the analysis. As you said when you move away from Jack's you need to use a CalMag product, but with Jack's you don't. So the only potential source I can see is the Jack's.

Some product lines that separate calcium and magnesium are Cutting Edge Solution, with separate calcium and magnesium products plus their sweeteners are magnesium sulfate derived. Botanicare recently released the Kind line where the calcium is in their "Base" bottle and the magnesium is in the "Grow" and "Bloom" bottles. Their Organicare line also had a separate calcium product. Dyna-Gro has Mag-Pro which is more of a bloom booster with magnesium, but there is no calcium in the product. Xtreme Gardening has their CalCarb product. There are plenty more that I am missing here.

 

[sixstring]

Maybe they dont list it but it does have some, just seems weird cause they list a bunch of stuff other nute lines dont have.
I did flower a royal purple kush full cycle on nothing but my pee and a weekly dose of hammerhead pk boost, again no calmag for 8.weeks.plant looked good, got pics somewhere lol.

 

[nightmarecreature]

Then do some searching on your own, is my suggestion. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything I've read is that perlite is chemically inert. Sure, it has those minerals in it, but that doesn't mean that they simply dissolve and/or become available easily. The CaO levels in perlite are almost trace levels, there are several times more sodium present, going by lurch's post, than Ca, so...?

You're viewing "calmag" as one and the same. They are two separate elements. Try using Ca and Mg separately. Beyond that, try learning how to read other plants' symptoms and you'll see how much cannabis has in common with other terrestrial flora. It's like when people try to tell me that fishkeeping has changed. Oh, really? So fish have evolved that much in the past 100yrs? The basics of plant physiology are still the same, which was the point I was trying to make to sixstring that I believe has been run over.

Not just coir, but coir does give an extra twist with its propensity to chemically 'lock' onto Ca and Mg, as well as all that K it offers back up. Seriously, get yourself a Ca-only product and try separating out the feeds with a goal of making the ratio of Ca:Mg at least 6:1. Just try it.

That's common sense, that Calcium and Magnesium are two seperate elements. They are bottled together for a REASON. Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Nitrate are meant for soil less mediums aka Hydro/coco for the best uptake.

It sounds like you grow in soil only. Adding Calcium and Magnesium seperately will work in soil but that doesnt fly in hydro or coco. Most likely the kind you are using is a powder and its probably not water soluble, fine for soil but not hydro.

Magnesium Sulfate works in soil but too much can kill your bennies. Magnesium sulfate can cause lockout in hydro or coco, due to the sulfites mixing with base nutes. Precipitation can occur. That is the reason why nitrates are used instead of sulfites. Please dont use epsom salts in hydro.

Proper Cal/Mag for Hydro and coco is Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Nitrate. Both are completely water soluble. I pay for the convince of bottled nutes, i could make me own if i chose to and some times i do.

 

[Seamaiden]

Maybe it sounds like that, but I also do coir and have done a hempy form of hydro. I've done both chemical salts and organics.

I've used liquid forms of Ca and Mg, including the combination products, but few powdered products in coir or perlite.

I figure the reason Ca and Mg are bottled in a combination form is that whole convenience thing. Unfortunately, in my opinion and experience, the ratios are off.

If you overuse MgSO4 of course you're going to cause a lockout. If you keep use rates low you'll never see that or precipitation out of solution.

But NONE of that is the point of this thread. The entire point of this thread is that there is no such thing as a "calmag" deficiency. It's impossible. You may see a Ca deficiency, you may see a Mg deficiency and you may even see the two occurring together, but they are not the same thing at all, and if someone, as is SO common, sees a Ca- and throws a combination Ca-Mg product at that Ca-, they may not see the results they were hoping for. That's because Ca- is different from Mg-. That's the whole point of this thread.

 

[shoestring]

I think (like r.o.water) a calmag additive is way overused and over suggested for nutrient problems. Not all problems with marijuana plants are deficiencies. Its heavily related to your starting water. Anything under 250 ppm (.50 scale) and almost all major brands of mineral base nutrients work just fine in most mediums. Be it peat based mixes, hydroton, rockwool, perlite, air, water, etc. And it should. A base nute should supply everything to keep plants healthy if temps and environment is on point and the grower doesnt get all crazy with ec/tds numbers. And i would try a hardwater base before going all out with r.o. water if my start water was high in calcium carbonates. With coco coir a little extra calcium in the base nute is sometimes needed in the beginning but honestly a coir specific nute is more gimmick and marketing than anything. Years ago before calmag supplements were in the hydro hobby stores seems therd were less problems. At least with me and my circle of friends. There just wasnt any bottles of it on the shelves in any of our growrooms. But if you build it they will come lol !!!!! The first calmags i remember were granulars in landscape/ nursery stores and were marketed to fix blossom end rot for tomato growers. I say if you have decent tap water and you use a base nute and nothing else and your room is pretty dialed to your strains and you still get nutrient problems its time to switch it up and change to a different brand (sorry run on sentence - been stoned all damn day lol). Peace !!!!

 

[Coir]

There is absolutely no problem with using Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Nitrate in hydroponic culture. It's been done for many years and by thousands of growers. While you can not mix the two together in CONCENTRATED forms, once they are at feeding strength, there is not an issue. The main reason for two part nutrient formulas, both liquid and dry, is because of this. Please do your research before telling people that something will not work or can't be used!

 

[DO IT]

SM hit this 1 outa the ball park ;).... About a year ago I started doing my homework on dry nutrients and found that the majority of commercial growers do not use any type of Ca-Mg supplement. I found that instead the used calcium nitrate for 2 reasons, one was cost and the other was that you usually only have one deficiency at a time. I was on the Ca-Mg plus band wagon buying it up at $150 for 5 gallons. I now buy a 50lb bag of calcium nitrate for $30 that makes 150 gallons of solution. I also bought a 50lb bag of magnesium "aka Epsom salt" for $25. I'm killing 2 birds with 1 stone here saving big $$$ and giving the tree's only what they need, not a cocktail of nutrients that tend to lock others out. SM sent me a circle chart of nutrient contradictions. This chart is priceless and I have a copy on every door in my shops. If this were a class room everyone would be paying thousands to have SM at the front of the room with a piece of chalk in her hand. :bookworm:

 

[shoestring]

In a perfect world a hydroponic base nutrient should be profiled around the starting water. But in reality and for what we do its really not nescessary. We can get close with either mixing our own (much cheaper but is a hassle for most growers) or we buy a ready made full profile base nutrient. I will say it again. Whether its a one part, two or three part, if your room is dialed and varieties are on point a base nutrient should supply everything a plant needs to survive and thrive. Calcium/magnesium supplements should NOT be needed.

 

[Seamaiden]

But, there are times when they are needed. Whether growing in a medium like coir or in a perfectly rationed potting soil, these nutrients *must* be provided in some way. I found when growing in coir that I had to go to RO/DI water instead of my well water, which I tested and found is very high in carbonates and CaCO3 in particular. Carbonates are difficult molecules to break apart and they can build up in soils, so what am I to do? I use gypsum, I use other products that are technically supplements, because they're needed.

I've always said, what should be and what is are two different things. ;) (Haven't said that in a while, come to think of it.)

And whether or not they're needed wasn't my point in starting this thread. My point still stands, no such thing as a 'cal-mag' deficiency. It's one, the other, or both, but they are not one and the same, for the reasons I explained on the first page.

 

[caveman4.20]

SM hit this 1 outa the ball park ;).... About a year ago I started doing my homework on dry nutrients and found that the majority of commercial growers do not use any type of Ca-Mg supplement. I found that instead the used calcium nitrate for 2 reasons, one was cost and the other was that you usually only have one deficiency at a time. I was on the Ca-Mg plus band wagon buying it up at $150 for 5 gallons. I now buy a 50lb bag of calcium nitrate for $30 that makes 150 gallons of solution. I also bought a 50lb bag of magnesium "aka Epsom salt" for $25. I'm killing 2 birds with 1 stone here saving big $$$ and giving the tree's only what they need, not a cocktail of nutrients that tend to lock others out. SM sent me a circle chart of nutrient contradictions. This chart is priceless and I have a copy on every door in my shops. If this were a class room everyone would be paying thousands to have SM at the front of the room with a piece of chalk in her hand. :bookworm:

Can you post that one I should have it but if not I need it :bookworm:

 

[DO IT]

Will do let me look for it.

 

[DO IT]

I couldn't fine the down load but this is one of my doors. SM sent me all 3

 

[Seamaiden]

My sig line, first post, The Charts.

 

[caveman4.20]

Cool the only
One I didn't have is the blue and red one it looks like ones mobile nutrient showing deficiencies in lower leaves and red showing immobile deficiencies in uppers?

 

[Seamaiden]

Right, the flow chart, with the boxes?

 

[straydogOG]

sm ... great chart.. resource... thank you...worried about high ph.. cal/mag deficiency?

order some .. Nectar For the Gods stuff from ... http://oregonsonly.com/

cant go wrong...most the nuts are calcium based and low ph... to keep for long life... tell them sd9007 sent ya.

 

[Legion]

In my experience and from what I've read, Hmmm it's hard to explain.. All of these elements are in balance so to speak. One is used to allow the other to work and if one is absent then the other is locked out.. Sort of like that. Again, this is just what I've experienced and read about. When going into flower, a lot of people use high P and K foods and P has to use Mg to be taken in by the plant. Otherwise def's appear. A high amount of one element can drag the another into a def.

I had an issue with this. Mid to late flower.. over and over. My plants would veg great, but once in a few weeks they'd have necrosis spots. Finally I just gave in and used calmag+ or anything like that and my issues were gone. If I waited for that to happen then bumped up the calmag it would stop. The damage was done but it stopped. So, I started to pre-supplement and it wasn't an issue.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that a lot of this depends on your water source and medium. Some of you may have cal and mg in your water at enough levels that it's not an issue for you or in your potting soil, but I tested this, over and over again. It helps my plants.

http://gsr.lib.msu.edu/1970s/1972/721101.pdf
Potassium, Calcium,Magnesium- How They Relate to Plant growth.
My .02 ;)

 

[shoestring]

Here in my hometown we stopped getting our water piped in from detroit after 60 years and.decided to build our own. But that wont be finished till 2016. Until then the city is getting out tap water from the river. Ppm was a consistent 120 forever. As of last week when switched over it jumped to 240 ppm. Thought my meter was broke but then i figured it all out. Iam gonna do this next run as is and adjust accordingly. Hope it works out. Oh and of course i have to use a little more ph down. Sux!!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

Great post, Legion. I just finished a quick blurb by Hugh Lovell, and I'm going to show the sequence of minerals as he shows them. As far as Hugh's concerned, it all starts with Boron.

And of course, none of that really does much to emphasize my point--there's NO SUCH THING as a "cal-mag" deficiency. :D