There is no such thing as a "cal-mag" deficiency...

[sixstring]

I thought perlite was inert, though, and when I use it for growing or cloning that's how I treat it.
nope as lurch has listed the makeup of perlite.and almost all soil growers use it because its mixed into most soils we buy,and some like myself like to add a bit more for drainage.

But cannabis isn't really that unique. The vast majority of its physiological functions are going to be like most other plants. It produces chlorophyll, has similar ranges of acceptable growing parameters, etc. It's not as though we're comparing carbon-based life forms to, say, sulfur-based (think everything topside of the earth vs those gigantic tube worms, crustaceans, etc, whose life process are chemically completely different, based on the bacteria that consume the nutrients spewed out by the submarine volcanoes). It's not chemosynthesis vs photosynthesis, it's photosynthesis of an annual photoperiodic plant (usually Arabidopsis spp) vs photosynthesis in an annual photoperiodic plant (Cannabis).

Seriously, don't be so quick to dismiss the solid information to be found or the ability to extrapolate that information to cannabis.

Let me go double-check my Pro-Mix really quick. Yup, it's got both dolomitic and calcitic lime for pH adjustment. Depending on how much it may or may not provide sufficient Ca and Mg.

the levels used to adjust ph are nowhere near what weed growers use when they bust out a bottle of calmag lol.i was gunna ignore this post but i think it does nothing to help weed growers,specificly soil growers if i dont answer back to it.your condescending tone and disbelief that cannabis is unique makes me lol.think about that statement and imagine how healthy a palm tree would look in the foothills of northern michigan or a eastern white pine would grow on the shores of daytona beach.all plants have a prefered climate and nutient level that are in most cases very unique to each variety.i might be a hs dropout,but im also a certified master gardener in my state as well as a licensed plant and pesticed manager with almost 30 years(1 more to go) experience in the green industry,not weed but real trees and shrubs lol.i took pics of a few root balls that ill post in a min to show how rootbound my stuff gets.im almost certain my plants used up the calmag that came in my soil during veg but maybe not.what im suggesting is that weed requires very little calcium but from my experience needs additional mag.
calcium can help break down salts in over fertilized soil beds and help a bad grower by allowing the plants to use whats been made available by the break down,and in turn make a grower believe their plant wanted the calcium,when in fact it might have just needed a good ole flushing.

im just saying open your mind to my way of thinking on calcium and its over-use in weed gardens.its like the nikko blue hydrangea,a plant that loves acidic soils,you plant that puppy in a sandy loam here in michigan and she will quickly show pink or white flowers the following year.toss a bit of pine bark around her base and the flowers turn blue again.cant do that with weed

so is the og kush a cal whore or is calcium just the souil fix to unlocking the other salts the plant feeds off of? i think our universities need to do ALOT more studies on cannabis,but im seeing that my plants dont need much at all.

 

[sixstring]

perlite is neutral with a ph of 7.0-7.5
it is sterile ,and inert,and contains no mineral nutrient,it has no buffering capacity.

There is risk of a toxic Al2O3 release if the ph is too low.

The Elemental Analysis listed above,appears to be the chemical compositions,not the actual
nutrient analysis,or availability....If we list them as oxide (%) the analysis looks like this
SiO2 Al2O3 CaO Fe2O3 Na2O K2O
73.1% 15.3% 0.8% 1.05% 3.65% 4.5%

Perlite is inert,

here's a link for those of you interested in information on substrate analysis

But it still shows caO as being there @.8% I personally could never find the breakdown for perlite but i have seen that chart before.

 

[sixstring]

Heres some roots, not much soil left when im done with em lol.

 

[waayne]

But it still shows caO as being there @.8% I personally could never find the breakdown for perlite but i have seen that chart before.

six string what I posted was the chemical composition of perlite expressed as oxide percentages

I don't believe that is the same as mineral nutrient analysis or availability.

perlite is inert ,so it won't react chemically,with your soil,unless the ph is allowed to
become really acidic,and then you get Al toxicity

I can't really see how that .8% of CaO is available to the plants root system
when we shoot for a soil ph of around 5.8 -6.8

perlite has been used for decades for lab studies, and with hydroponics,because it is inert.....

 

[sixstring]

six string what I posted was the chemical composition of perlite expressed as oxide percentages

I don't believe that is the same as mineral nutrient analysis or availability.

perlite is inert ,so it won't react chemically,with your soil,unless the ph is allowed to
become really acidic,and then you get Al toxicity

I can't really see how that .8% of CaO is available to the plants root system
when we shoot for a soil ph of around 5.8 -6.8

perlite has been used for decades for lab studies, and with hydroponics,because it is inert.....

yeah bro,i was just reading that site you posted.kinda leary on it being from isreal but im sure thats just the camel jockey in me lol,but i did see this and thought it might be interesting to soil growers.sounds like its used in other parts of the world. "zeolite"

 

[Natural]

the levels used to adjust ph are nowhere near what weed growers use when they bust out a bottle of calmag lol.i was gunna ignore this post but i think it does nothing to help weed growers,specificly soil growers if i dont answer back to it.your condescending tone and disbelief that cannabis is unique makes me lol.think about that statement and imagine how healthy a palm tree would look in the foothills of northern michigan or a eastern white pine would grow on the shores of daytona beach.all plants have a prefered climate and nutient level that are in most cases very unique to each variety.i might be a hs dropout,but im also a certified master gardener in my state as well as a licensed plant and pesticed manager with almost 30 years(1 more to go) experience in the green industry,not weed but real trees and shrubs lol.i took pics of a few root balls that ill post in a min to show how rootbound my stuff gets.im almost certain my plants used up the calmag that came in my soil during veg but maybe not.what im suggesting is that weed requires very little calcium but from my experience needs additional mag.
calcium can help break down salts in over fertilized soil beds and help a bad grower by allowing the plants to use whats been made available by the break down,and in turn make a grower believe their plant wanted the calcium,when in fact it might have just needed a good ole flushing.

im just saying open your mind to my way of thinking on calcium and its over-use in weed gardens.its like the nikko blue hydrangea,a plant that loves acidic soils,you plant that puppy in a sandy loam here in michigan and she will quickly show pink or white flowers the following year.toss a bit of pine bark around her base and the flowers turn blue again.cant do that with weed

so is the og kush a cal whore or is calcium just the souil fix to unlocking the other salts the plant feeds off of? i think our universities need to do ALOT more studies on cannabis,but im seeing that my plants dont need much at all.

You're definitely on to something..but speaking to organic soil guys and nute bottle user's, bridging that gap is going to be a vertical climb methinks. What I found with chems and OG's is they seem to be special needs plants. Using bottled nutes with Cal-Mag removed(devoid), RO, and benign media deficiencies are easy to come by. Their deficiencies show up way before any substantial food is introduced..you really have to be on it to keep them happy. It seems to be Mag in the early stages for both..but OG's show Calcium problems early and late. Flushing never really helped much. Also, wondering why foliaring Cal/Mag helps if all the Calcium is doing is precipitating for all the hydrogen and salts. Is it because you think the stomata or xylem are able to process more food because of Calcium?
Seems everything I read states that Calcium is an essential building block..and that where naturally occurring Calcium in soils are high, crops do well. Is there some negative you have encountered using a Cal-Mag product? I know some old skoolers have said late use can lead to airiness, but haven't found that to be true myself.

 

[sixstring]

You're definitely on to something..but speaking to organic soil guys and nute bottle user's, bridging that gap is going to be a vertical climb methinks. What I found with chems and OG's is they seem to be special needs plants. Using bottled nutes with Cal-Mag removed(devoid), RO, and benign media deficiencies are easy to come by. Their deficiencies show up way before any substantial food is introduced..you really have to be on it to keep them happy. It seems to be Mag in the early stages for both..but OG's show Calcium problems early and late. Flushing never really helped much. Also, wondering why foliaring Cal/Mag helps if all the Calcium is doing is precipitating for all the hydrogen and salts.
Seems everything I read states that Calcium is an essential building block..and that where naturally occurring Calcium in soils are high, crops do well. Is there some negative you have encountered using a Cal-Mag product? I know some old skoolers have said late use can lead to airiness, but haven't found that to be true myself.

nothing really negative bro,just trying to explain how since i stopped using large amounts as in growing with jacks classics,my plants seemed just as healthy.and if it was my promix as sea suggests then why did i need(or think i needed) calmag before when using ionic and a/n? im just pointing out that the overall opinion of 90% or more of weed sites always point to calmag as the cure all.and now reading what she posted on mag,im more inclined to think its the mag our plants crave and it seems mag is easy to apply and see more of an instant result like with foliar apps.

i just think its way over used,calcium not mag haha.

 

[lurch]

Thanks for the link wayne will read it tonight.
Just for the record l use ss mix 4 and jacks pro veg and blooms...........nothing else and zero calmag issues.
l do like to learn.

 

[GhostFace]

the cal-mag craze started maybe 5-10 years ago.. I think giving your plants cal-mag can help create issues & deficiencies ,.. I never owned or used cal-mag supps in over 20years but been around enough grows and plants to say most plants don't need it as much as people think they do :blackalien:

ive used tons of different soils, soiless, cocoblends, promix.. grown on the east coast, the rockies and in the desert SW always using tap water.. ive used maxibloom, foxfarms, pureblendpro, dynagrow & a few others yet still I have never needed to use cal-mag maybe a light dose of Epsom once in a blue moon but that's bout it.

 

[Venom818]

good read thnx for contribution everybody

 

[Seamaiden]

@Seamaiden what kind of promix do you use, there are several different mixes.i even see it at Home Depot now but its a totally dif mix with a ton of perlite.mine has very little.

I got what's being sold at Lowe's now, the stuff with Mycorrhizae in it. Let me upload a photo of the backside for ya.

 

[Seamaiden]

the levels used to adjust ph are nowhere near what weed growers use when they bust out a bottle of calmag lol.i was gunna ignore this post but i think it does nothing to help weed growers,specificly soil growers if i dont answer back to it.your condescending tone and disbelief that cannabis is unique makes me lol.think about that statement and imagine how healthy a palm tree would look in the foothills of northern michigan or a eastern white pine would grow on the shores of daytona beach.all plants have a prefered climate and nutient level that are in most cases very unique to each variety.i might be a hs dropout,but im also a certified master gardener in my state as well as a licensed plant and pesticed manager with almost 30 years(1 more to go) experience in the green industry,not weed but real trees and shrubs lol.i took pics of a few root balls that ill post in a min to show how rootbound my stuff gets.im almost certain my plants used up the calmag that came in my soil during veg but maybe not.what im suggesting is that weed requires very little calcium but from my experience needs additional mag.
calcium can help break down salts in over fertilized soil beds and help a bad grower by allowing the plants to use whats been made available by the break down,and in turn make a grower believe their plant wanted the calcium,when in fact it might have just needed a good ole flushing.

im just saying open your mind to my way of thinking on calcium and its over-use in weed gardens.its like the nikko blue hydrangea,a plant that loves acidic soils,you plant that puppy in a sandy loam here in michigan and she will quickly show pink or white flowers the following year.toss a bit of pine bark around her base and the flowers turn blue again.cant do that with weed

so is the og kush a cal whore or is calcium just the souil fix to unlocking the other salts the plant feeds off of? i think our universities need to do ALOT more studies on cannabis,but im seeing that my plants dont need much at all.

I'm sorry you felt my response was condescending. I'm picking up that you haven't really messed around with separating out the elements we're discussing, either.

 

[sixstring]

i have used epsom in my soil mixes but not for years.but im not using calcium on my jacks plants so thats been seperated lol.im tempted to try using them on some plants independently just to see whats up,but why mess with a good thing lol.i dont think i ever did a foliar with just mag but it sounds interesting .been slackin on any kind of foliar for months but when i did it it was usually just nitrozyme and humic acid.

 

[nightmarecreature]

Yeah right! How many people are running pure OG strains? Not very many! Pure OG's in Coco especially require Cal/Mag. I can get away with not using Cal/Mag on my non OG's. I'm not talking about Hybrid Og's either, pure OG!

Also those pictures posted are outdated, I think that was something from the 1980's. I mean they give you a general idea but I just think they are bad pictures. There's better ones around. Here's some pics that are easier to diagnose. http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-symptoms-pictures

 

[nightmarecreature]

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that Cal/Mag is good to add if you run OG's and hydro or coco. Cal/Mag is best absorbed at a ph of 6.0. I've had to drop my ph to range through from 5.5 on up to 6.2. Adding Cal/Mag keeps me from having to chase my tail. When I drop my PH to 5.5, I get magnesium deficiencies, by adding Cal/Mag, I don't have any problems. Maybe it's a coco thing but I do know that strain,base nutes, medium and PH play a big role.

 

[Natural]

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that Cal/Mag is good to add if you run OG's and hydro or coco. Cal/Mag is best absorbed at a ph of 6.0. I've had to drop my ph to range through from 5.5 on up to 6.2. Adding Cal/Mag keeps me from having to chase my tail. When I drop my PH to 5.5, I get magnesium deficiencies, by adding Cal/Mag, I don't have any problems. Maybe it's a coco thing but I do know that strain,base nutes, medium and PH play a big role.

peat has a low ph to start with too..I think it's around 4. and @sixstring whatever additives they add into promix is negligible at best..I also doubt if the mycorrhiza is even viable anymore. I'm also curious if Jack's Classic or Pro has any source of Calcium included?

 

[Smoking Gun]

Ok folks, I think many of us have misunderstood the intent of this thread. This is not about whether or not plants need CalMag products but rather that each element should be treated individually. Calcium and magnesium are separate elements that have separate functions within the plants; so we should not be treating them as a single product, nor will the single CalMag products correct the imbalances and deficiencies of only one of those elements properly. That is the whole point of this thread. So as the thread title implies there is no such thing as a CalMag deficiency, it does not exist. The plants may be experiencing a calcium deficiency, a magnesium deficiency, or in fact may be experiencing a deficiency of both elements, but they are indeed separate issues.

As for whether or not plants need calcium or magnesium, there is no argument; biologically plants need both elements. So for all of you who do not use any CalMag products this does not mean your plants don't need Ca or Mg but rather they are receiving all the Ca and Mg they need from the provided nutrients or the medium they are in. If both of these elements are present in either the nutrient or medium used then there is no need for the addition of bottled or bagged Ca or Mg.

Nightmare, follow the thread in Sea's signature, there are plenty of charts there to explain why you see the reactions you do when you adjust your pH.

Sixstring, you keep saying you are using Jack's Classic, but which product? Is it the 20-20-20? There are multiple products in the Jack's Classic line. I ask because if you look at Jack's Pro line many of the nutrients do in fact have added Ca and Mg.

 

[sixstring]

dynamic duo 20-20-20 and 10-30-20 they both have some mag but no calcium.and as natural said i highly doubt theres very much cal in my promix,and im using r/o water.yes i think the point of this thread was to seperate these 2 elements and treat them seperate.but it was suggested a few times that cal was essential to growing healthy pot plants and i just dont agree with it after using the jacks for as long as i have.the 2 plants i did use calmag on were real early in my jacking days and i think they were just hungry and i was only feeding around .5ec in veg.i guess what im getting at is maybe theres something else in the jacks that takes the place of needing calcium like a high level of iron or boron idk.im still not convinced my plants arent getting some cal from the perlite,lurch's chart shows it there and waynes link says its inert so idk :)

 

[Seamaiden]

Then do some searching on your own, is my suggestion. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything I've read is that perlite is chemically inert. Sure, it has those minerals in it, but that doesn't mean that they simply dissolve and/or become available easily. The CaO levels in perlite are almost trace levels, there are several times more sodium present, going by lurch's post, than Ca, so...?

Yeah right! How many people are running pure OG strains? Not very many! Pure OG's in Coco especially require Cal/Mag. I can get away with not using Cal/Mag on my non OG's. I'm not talking about Hybrid Og's either, pure OG!

Also those pictures posted are outdated, I think that was something from the 1980's. I mean they give you a general idea but I just think they are bad pictures. There's better ones around. Here's some pics that are easier to diagnose. http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-symptoms-pictures

You're viewing "calmag" as one and the same. They are two separate elements. Try using Ca and Mg separately. Beyond that, try learning how to read other plants' symptoms and you'll see how much cannabis has in common with other terrestrial flora. It's like when people try to tell me that fishkeeping has changed. Oh, really? So fish have evolved that much in the past 100yrs? The basics of plant physiology are still the same, which was the point I was trying to make to sixstring that I believe has been run over.

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that Cal/Mag is good to add if you run OG's and hydro or coco. Cal/Mag is best absorbed at a ph of 6.0. I've had to drop my ph to range through from 5.5 on up to 6.2. Adding Cal/Mag keeps me from having to chase my tail. When I drop my PH to 5.5, I get magnesium deficiencies, by adding Cal/Mag, I don't have any problems. Maybe it's a coco thing but I do know that strain,base nutes, medium and PH play a big role.

Not just coir, but coir does give an extra twist with its propensity to chemically 'lock' onto Ca and Mg, as well as all that K it offers back up. Seriously, get yourself a Ca-only product and try separating out the feeds with a goal of making the ratio of Ca:Mg at least 6:1. Just try it.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Sixstring, I understand where you are coming from as far as experience with calcium and plants, with that I cannot argue. But there is ample evidence that calcium plays several vital roles in plant cell function. Plants would die as a result of a lack of calcium. Here is a diagram of the various roles calcium plays in cell function and a few articles, the second being more specific to this topic.

Again I understand your experience has been such that leads you to believe Cannabis may not use calcium. But it is simply not true. So your plants are getting calcium from somewhere, but I could not immediately identify your source.