Throwing it out there, hoping for help: Composing Supersoil With Israeli Ingredients

[royfree2grow]

Hello everyone,

I'm having some problems getting much of the stuff you guys are using for soil, following Alien's (and a bunch of others') recipe, and after checking what's available in the market here, I see it's impossible for me to get most of the ingredients/amendments needed.

I'd really love to get your opinions and guidance as to what products should I use to compose a kickass soil based on local variety.

I went to (supposedly) one of the biggest grow shops here, and they didn't have much. I also followed the local manufacturers and importers' websites for parallel products, and this is what i got so far, it's all translated from Hebrew so I hope I got it right:

Soil option 1: Ecogan Organic Grow Mix: They say that it's completely organic, no chemical ingredients used and that it contains: high quality peat, coco fibers, tufa and "organic fertilizers that ensure ongoing (continues) feeding". More, they say: "these ingredients provide the plant with a steady air supply directed to the plant's root system". I contacted them for a full list of ingredients and amounts, no luck yet. I did manage to get their chief agronomist's number, hope to give him a call asap. (the pictures are links to the products' pages, its mostly in Hebrew, but its there if you want, you can use google translate)



Soil option 2: Deshanit Garden Mix: They say its based on organic ingredients of the finest quality... basically the same stuff: "high quality peat, tuff, coconut fibers, aeration material, and controlled slow release fertilizers"... "Our growing media ensure high water retention, enable maximal aeration and drainage". I used this soil before and although I don't really know what's in it except what's specified, it does have good drainage, and seedlings looked healthy.


"Deshanit" also have Enriched Red Loam and another mix called "Top Grass" which is supposed to "revive grass bald spots as a result of lack of feeding elements or diseases..."

there are couple of more mixes from different local manufacturers here, but they dont say everything that's in their soil either... basically, they all give the same basic info. but one big manufacturer offers a custom mix, by demand, that looks pretty interesting...

Amendments/Fertilizers
1. Deshanit Bio Compost: "rich with N-P-K and micro elements".
2. Deshanit Redworm Humus: produced with Eisenia Fetida redworms, contains humic acids and helps the microbial activity in the media.
3. Ecogan Multigreen 20-24-9 + 1% iron: for 4 months (of controlled released fertilesers).
4. Ecogan Multigan: 25-6-18: for 4 months.
5. Ecogan Multikote 20-10-20/17-17-17 also for 4 months
6. Ecogan Planting Fertilizer: here they say that there are two types Nitrogen: "slow released" and regular N. so its: (14.5)20-24-9. good for 3-4 months.
7. Ecogan Fruit Fertilizer: here there's a slow released K so its: (17)9-9-27(13) slow released K. good for 3 months.
8. Ecogan Bloom Fertilizer: (25)20-6-18(9). good for 4 months.
9. Ecogan Irongan: N7%-Fe13%-MgO3%-S20%
10. Ecogan Plants and Flowers Fertilizer: 15-7-15(9). good for 6 months.

I also can get the basic stuff: perlite, ammonium sulfate and urea nitrate.

Any help will be greatly appreciated guys, thanks.

 

[PButter]

Sheesh, this IS a challenge. I'm kinda out of my element here- not knowing what most of these additives are but.....

I would pick the base soil that you have already put seedlings in. I would add 1 and 2, bio-compost and redworm humus probably in equal amounts...

Start growing (but not seedlings because it may be hot soil but shouldn't be..) in it and I would keep an eye out for deficiencies to pop up. You WILL keep notes of the whole thing so that next time around you know what the soil needs to be fortified with. That is what I would do to get started at least.

Some of these fertilizers may be totally on the up and up but I just can't speak for them and cant touch them so I feel quite useless with any other recommendations.

Is there something like an amazon dot com that can get some amendments? Can you give a few more details on what recipe(s) you are shooting for?

PB

 

[royfree2grow]

PB thanks for your input man,

One correction first, I don't have any seedlings in soil right now, just beans waiting to be popped, sorry for that misunderstanding

I actually ran this Garden Mix soil in my last grow (growing AMS widows)- I've kept records of everything but I can't recall any problem indicating a specific deficiency, though I had some high acidity problems and I think I can say the soil is lacking additives for the flower period, and doesn't encourage roots development, in general.

Don't have a local amazon... just amazon dot com. I'm shooting for feeding as low as I can during the grow, I wish I could compose the best enriched soil of these products and light feed the whole way... impossible goal?

 

[Seamaiden]

Hello everyone,

I'm having some problems getting much of the stuff you guys are using for soil, following Alien's (and a bunch of others') recipe, and after checking what's available in the market here, I see it's impossible for me to get most of the ingredients/amendments needed.

I'd really love to get your opinions and guidance as to what products should I use to compose a kickass soil based on local variety.

I went to (supposedly) one of the biggest grow shops here, and they didn't have much. I also followed the local manufacturers and importers' websites for parallel products, and this is what i got so far, it's all translated from Hebrew so I hope I got it right:

Soil option 1: Ecogan Organic Grow Mix: They say that it's completely organic, no chemical ingredients used and that it contains: high quality peat, coco fibers, tufa and "organic fertilizers that ensure ongoing (continues) feeding". More, they say: "these ingredients provide the plant with a steady air supply directed to the plant's root system". I contacted them for a full list of ingredients and amounts, no luck yet. I did manage to get their chief agronomist's number, hope to give him a call asap. (the pictures are links to the products' pages, its mostly in Hebrew, but its there if you want, you can use google translate)



Soil option 2: Deshanit Garden Mix: They say its based on organic ingredients of the finest quality... basically the same stuff: "high quality peat, tuff, coconut fibers, aeration material, and controlled slow release fertilizers"... "Our growing media ensure high water retention, enable maximal aeration and drainage". I used this soil before and although I don't really know what's in it except what's specified, it does have good drainage, and seedlings looked healthy.


"Deshanit" also have Enriched Red Loam and another mix called "Top Grass" which is supposed to "revive grass bald spots as a result of lack of feeding elements or diseases..."

there are couple of more mixes from different local manufacturers here, but they dont say everything that's in their soil either... basically, they all give the same basic info. but one big manufacturer offers a custom mix, by demand, that looks pretty interesting...

Amendments/Fertilizers
1. Deshanit Bio Compost: "rich with N-P-K and micro elements".
2. Deshanit Redworm Humus: produced with Eisenia Fetida redworms, contains humic acids and helps the microbial activity in the media.
3. Ecogan Multigreen 20-24-9 + 1% iron: for 4 months (of controlled released fertilesers).
4. Ecogan Multigan: 25-6-18: for 4 months.
5. Ecogan Multikote 20-10-20/17-17-17 also for 4 months
6. Ecogan Planting Fertilizer: here they say that there are two types Nitrogen: "slow released" and regular N. so its: (14.5)20-24-9. good for 3-4 months.
7. Ecogan Fruit Fertilizer: here there's a slow released K so its: (17)9-9-27(13) slow released K. good for 3 months.
8. Ecogan Bloom Fertilizer: (25)20-6-18(9). good for 4 months.
9. Ecogan Irongan: N7%-Fe13%-MgO3%-S20%
10. Ecogan Plants and Flowers Fertilizer: 15-7-15(9). good for 6 months.

I also can get the basic stuff: perlite, ammonium sulfate and urea nitrate.

Any help will be greatly appreciated guys, thanks.

NOP standards disallow for the bolded fertilizers. For me, it's difficult to advise you when I can't tell what's actually IN those products. Fertilizer, great, but what is it, exactly? So, they won't say rock dusts, or volcanic dust, or chicken poop or cow manure or guano or worm castings or *any* of those things?

Here's what I can tell you--anything with high numbers (NPK +), which to me is anything above 10-15%, is likely fortified with chemical salts, and therefore is not organic.

All that said, I like the first soil you've shown best. It would need mineralization (rock dusts, volcanic origin are what you're looking for) and possibly additions of guano, compost, some sort of manure for additional N through the growing season. So, I would add to the first Ecogan the Deshanit Bio Compost, their Redworm Humus.... and nothing else from that list because of the numbers, only the Irongan doesn't scare me (as an organic grower).

EDIT* I see you mention having problems with high acidity last grow, that may mean a few things. Use of chemical salt fertilizers, lack of buffering compounds (anything with a carbonate molecule will buffer, CaCO3, calcium carbonate--oyster shell, egg shell, crab & shrimp shell). Dolomite lime is used as much for this reason as it is its Ca and Mg. So perhaps you may wish to add something like oyster shell flour. NOT gypsum, that acidifies!

Does Israel have an organic certification program? So far I can't really find the information I seek. I ask because if so, you should be able to find a list of accepted products used for organic production.

 

[PButter]

No, its not impossible.
I use a bunch of amendments - alfalfa meal, soft rock phosphate, fish bone meal, earth worm castings... The list goes on as I'm sure your soil recipes indicate. Without being able to look at the potential fertilizers I don't know by the links whether or not they are actually organic-matter ferts or if they are pure salts- and further more, If they are some sort of salt fertilizer- I would be really out of my depth to tell you how much of this or that...

There have got to be some good threads on this... I'll go see if I can't find something that can help move this conversation along.

PB

 

[PButter]

Nice SeaM, you posted while I was typing and looking around...

 

[Seamaiden]

Happens to me all the time, too. :)

 

[royfree2grow]

Great advice SeaM! thanks.

As to the soil ingredients, they do say tuff, or tuffa which is by itself a volcanic rock, all soil mixes here list tuff as an ingredient but doesn't say amounts. Worm castings is essentially the same as redworm humus isn't it?

According to your recipe, I should add the Ecogan Multigreen 20-24-9 + 1% iron, Deshanit Bio Compost and their Redworm Humus. What are the amounts your recommending? What else should I get in there? I see you mentioned in the Edit that my high acidity was due to using chemical salt fertilizers, I think you're spot on although I used liquid chem nutes, and the Deshanit Soil as media.

What about the Ammonium sulfate? no good? in general, after mixing this, what else is there that's crucial?

really good info here man, thanks again

 

[Seamaiden]

Since I have no idea what amounts or really what's present in the base mix, I can't recommend amounts of the other stuff and won't try. For the Ecogan, I wasn't talking about the Multigreen, I was talking about the Irongan, because of the micros it includes. I would recommend starting with 1/8th the recommended use rate.

Yes to the other remarks (tufa=volcanic, redworm humus=worm castings). Ammonium sulfate is a chemical salt-based fertilizer and is of the type that will kill soil microbes, is 100% in contradiction with the very notion of using organic methods for that reason. It kills the soil by killing the microbes that are what really take care of feeding the plant.

Make sense?

 

[royfree2grow]

Ok, so far I think I'll go with the Organic grow mix, the bio compost, Redworm humus and the Ecogan irongan. I also found this: http://www.perfect-blend.com/pdf/Labels/Biotic8-5-5_101911.pdf by perfect blend organics, and it's available here. I'd love to hear what you think, although it clearly states that its 80% organic only.

also, what quantities should I use for the Redworm Humus?

Thanks guys this is much appreciated!

 

[Mogrow]

Royfree2grow// go to a farm store , that has animal feed, get some kelp and alfalfa meal. they will have some kinda of stone dust also, lime , something that's ground up stone. feed store has everything you need, just hope you have one, if you have any livestock around you should have one. and start making your own compost, best thing, in my opinion a body can do. you don't need no stinkin" bags.
peace mogrow

 

[Seamaiden]

I personally would not use more than 25% worm humus because it can become rather heavy and tends to hold onto water.

 

[royfree2grow]

Been trying to find some more sources for organic fertilizers in Israel, it's a difficult task by itself cause the agriculture moto here is Grow Cheaper (...and bigger ...and better). It is nice to buy half a pound of tomatoes/colored peppers for $0.25 but that usually means chemical fertilizers.

I found this company, they're pretty hard core, check'em out, the website is English. They're manufacturing a whole line of their own chem fertilizers, plus, they have their own compost and organic fertilizer, here are the details:

Agrobiosol (link is in hebrew): An organic fertilizer produced from dry mycelium. It's composition is:
Organic matter: 80-90%
N: 7-8%
P2O5: 1-2%
K2O: 1-2%
CaO: 0.5%
MgO: 0.2%
pH= 4

It comes as either 4mm thick (gray and brown) grains or as a powder.

Oded (link is in hebrew): Liquid humic acids. It's a dark brown liquid produced from leonardite,containing at least 15% humic acids, it's acidity is ph9.

Compost (link is in hebrew): they say it's used in organic grows, and is approved by the department of agriculture and the biological agriculture organization,composition is:

C/N : 15-10
N: %1.5 (at least)
P: %1 (at least)
K: %1.5 (at least)

I also found a company here that imports http://www.consorziosgs.com/ 's products, please check them out in that link.

also, I found the Israeli importer for Kekkila, it's a Fin company and they produce peat moss based products. the one that caught my eye was the C-0 Organic Media: It's made of peat moss and has dolomite so they say it's rich with Cal-Mag.

so as you see I have a couple of more options, I'd love to get your take on what mix I should make/which products to use.

I really appreciate the help, thanks amigos!

 

[Seamaiden]

Ok, that first link shows that they're iFOAM accredited. iFOAM is the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements, and this organization has a very specific goal, twofold, of setting international organic standards (which would make it much easier for each country to recognize the organic products and standards of other countries), and education in countries that don't have organic production. It appears that Israel has its own organic production organizations and certifiers. I keep asking about this because THAT is really where you should be starting, because that's how you'll find the best products to use in your country.

ICL does have a section of organic fertilizers, but they don't offer everything, notably Ca.

The only issue(s) I have with dolomite lime are these: it raises pH, up into the 8 range in water columns in my experience, and it's Ca:Mg ratio is not so good for cannabis in my experience. DL has a Ca:Mg ratio of something like 2:1 or 3:1, IIRC. I have found that for cannabis it's better to have a bit more Ca in that ratio, getting it up to 4:1-7:1 is better, IMO/IME. That's where other Ca-containing products can be helpful. The only other issue is to do with using anything that's got that carbonate molecule IF you're watering/feeding with hard water that's known to also be high in carbonates. Carbonate is CO3 attached to anything else (it attaches to).

The liquid humic acid product looks to be a lot like Humax, which I've used to good success but Humax has a lower percentage of humic acid in it. The Agribiosol looks to be a decent product offhand, too.

 

[altitudefarmer]

Never underestimate the power of a whole fish. If you can compost some fish entrails or whole dead fish, it will seriously boost your plants. I sometimes don't even bother with composting; I just put a small fish about ten inches below my transplant. It may add too much N for some strains in bloom, and it's NOT the way for light feeders. But the technique works wonders on 75% of my stable.

And it's CHEAP! :-)

 

[Dopegeist]

I went to (supposedly) one of the biggest grow shops here, and they didn't have much. I also followed the local manufacturers and importers' websites for parallel products, and this is what i got so far, it's all translated from Hebrew so I hope I got it right:

Check out what farmers are using. Usually the topsoil they are using will suffice if it has enough organic matter (poop) in it. Any poop from meat eating animals should be sterilized/pasteurized first.

Basically what you are growing, when talking to farmers, is an heirloom tomato variety that is a medium feeder. Tomatoes are heavier feeders than weed, but otherwise a good proxy.

If you are going organic you will want to start your own composting of all your kitchen scraps, and if you want to compost meat and bones Bokashi Buckets.
The nice thing about organics is once you do the learning, all your inputs get reallly cheap, especially if you use Organic Lighting..

 

[Seamaiden]

Organic lighting..! I love it!

 

[royfree2grow]

Never underestimate the power of a whole fish. If you can compost some fish entrails or whole dead fish, it will seriously boost your plants. I sometimes don't even bother with composting; I just put a small fish about ten inches below my transplant. It may add too much N for some strains in bloom, and it's NOT the way for light feeders. But the technique works wonders on 75% of my stable.

And it's CHEAP! :)

That's a really cool idea dude, never thought of it but I think fertilizing with raw fish is to much for me right now, I wanna base my soil on off the shelf ferts. I'd love to know how you composting it though.

Check out what farmers are using. Usually the topsoil they are using will suffice if it has enough organic matter (poop) in it. Any poop from meat eating animals should be sterilized/pasteurized first.

Basically what you are growing, when talking to farmers, is an heirloom tomato variety that is a medium feeder. Tomatoes are heavier feeders than weed, but otherwise a good proxy.

If you are going organic you will want to start your own composting of all your kitchen scraps, and if you want to compost meat and bones Bokashi Buckets.
The nice thing about organics is once you do the learning, all your inputs get reallly cheap, especially if you use Organic Lighting..

Great tip on the heirloom tomatos man!

but again, i rather not be dealing with composting my own ferts, not now... Is that a necessity to every organic grower? are all organic growers composting and relying on their own made fertilizers?

finding more and more sources, I believe WE DO have the product variety here its just a matter of searching and eventually putting it all together... going to do some research.To be continued.

Thanks everyone!

 

[altitudefarmer]

No need to compost that fish, actually. I bury the whole thing about 10-12 inches below the transplant. I do throw a little bit of lime on fish to help it break down faster. Not sure why, honestly, I just heard that mafia hit men do that when they bury a body...haha

This technique absolutely KILLS it outdoors. I use whole fish on my tomatoes, squash, etc- anything I transplant into the ground.
The drawback is that sometimes animals will dig to try and get the fish if you don't bury it deep enough.
There is no noticeable smell once it's buried (even indoors), but animals have better noses than we do.

 

[Dopegeist]

Well lime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_lime;
calcium carbonate is useful to the microbes and fungi that may not colonize due to acidity otherwise. That bad chinese drywall ?last year? was full of sulfur, drywall is gypsum, bet it would have been better for agricultural use than residential.

Bears out here would smell it, the fish. (if you in bear country, no fish!)

Composting yourself:
Not necessary, but becomes necessary as you do the math.
Not hard, just takes time and such.
Basically if you get a test kit for NPK and the rock dust amendments needed you can source the compost elsewhere and just add little as needed to your reused soil...
But as Humans our trash is full of goodness.
For instance in the Netherlands you have to separate out all your organic matter from you trash. You get fined if you don't. So the trash company becomes a large composting company too.