U/V light filter in MPB reservoir

[jack the reaper]

somebody please slap me if this has been discussed...

would there be a benefit to running a U/V light filter in the res to kill bacteria in attempt to run a very sterile environment in DWC?

upsides?
downsides?

i have just started to explore that as an option but have heard from one source that it can cause iron to precipitate.

http://www.pondmasterstore.com/home/pm1/smartlist_8/uv_lights.html

 

[Loudblunts]

i keep a uv sterilizer in my RO standby res

upsides to it being in your main feed water: sterile and clean?
downsides: cleaning/killing the beneficial bacteria that you spent good money on via your nutrients and anything else beneficial. kiss that great white, roots excellurator..anything remotely organism/bacteria

i would make sure the roots couldnt see the light in any way shape or form. if you a run an all chem nutrient op, i see no problems :D

i've considered the option just havent pulled the trigger on putting it in my main feeding res. prolly wont either :x

 

[jack the reaper]

i am coming to realize the power of these supercharged systems and wondering if the bacteria is even necessary, the plants flat out BEAST in these bins, and if i could eliminate the perceived primary threat to a good harvest in DWC (root rot) i would do it and try to find ways to offset OR just be happy with the production in a sterile system. it would STILL be enough for me i think.

 

[Loudblunts]

root rot is overhyped imo


a chiller and high DO levels will have you seeing victory

root rot/pythium is caused by low D.O. levels and warm reservoir temps along with warm root zones in hydroponic systems. Algae and the other are mainly from light leaks.


also, just cuz you have a sterile light in the rez...that doesnt mean the roots wont get it... pythium affects the roots itself, not necessarily whas in the water.


i.e. your plants have pythium and you go get a uv light to get rid of it..... dont think it works like that.... the already active root rot will just be sprayed with U/V'd water...essentially doing nothing

 

[Loudblunts]

oh yea bra, i forgot to tell you, if you do decide to get one... make sure you look at its prerequisites

as some require you to have a pump for it as well... some want a water pump, some want an air pump...

i got one of the JBJ lines because i was comfortable and highly pleased with their line of chillers, so i figured what the fuck... try their other shit...not to mention it had already came with a pump, unlike other kits

http://www.marinedepot.com/uv_ultraviolet_sterilizers_ozonizers_jbj_submariner-ap.html

 

[jack the reaper]

oh yea bra, i forgot to tell you, if you do decide to get one... make sure you look at its prerequisites

as some require you to have a pump for it as well... some want a water pump, some want an air pump...

i got one of the JBJ lines because i was comfortable and highly pleased with their line of chillers, so i figured what the fuck... try their other shit...not to mention it had already came with a pump, unlike other kits

http://www.marinedepot.com/uv_ultraviolet_sterilizers_ozonizers_jbj_submariner-ap.html

i like the JBJ 13, one guys testimonial said it knocked out his algae in a 75 gal fish tank in 3 days. my res is 80 gal, plus my bins and pipes gets me up to 200+.
im thinking i like these for my system
http://www.marinedepot.com/pond_pro...rilizers_clarifier_danner_submersible-ap.html
the single ring or double ring would work for me. i dont mind buying a pump to control flow, i could take the water from the pump via hose or pipe up to a cylinder full of bio balls and let it splash down through to oxygenate it and let it fall back into the res, bwahahahah!! :rasta2:

my understanding is the algea and bacteria exist, and they can enter the grow in a myrad of ways. they WILL get into your water. whether or not they can reproduce enough to bloom and wreck your crops depends on a number of factors including:
-the size of the origional contamination will matter greatly
-how long your strain takes to mature. the longer it takes the higher the risk.
-how often a how thuroughly your equipment is cleaned.
-the overall health and resistance to disease of your strain. this includes intrusions into the root zone and extreme contitions above the root zone that cause damage to the plant and give the pathogen a foot in the door and a food source.
-conditions in the water including DO2, temp, pH, nutes availability and i have a theory that there is such a thing as TOO much aggitation in the root zone. (see above)
-light leaks will contribute to the growth of green algae, not sure how it affects bacteria but i dont think its good.

i am convinced that these DWCs can perform wonderfully without the need for a bacteria colony to safe guard against other bacteria and aid the digestive process of the plants. the things were BEASTING before i added benies, and then they just stopped. i agree i think i over did it with my application, and in a way i guess im saying "i dont know about using benes, and until i get it figured out could UV accomplish the same thing for me."

i have the benefit of being able to drain and rinse my roots as well as inspect via the hatches and a watering wand and hose. i can drain out the waste root tips etc from each site weekly to keep the dead matter from accumulating.
i have zero light leaks EXCEPT the sch.40 (or whichever is the thinner walled stuff) PVC i used for my distribution. i am sure there is plenty of light so i need to deal with that. im thinking about wrapping the tubes in panda. that would keep it cool and dark.
i have dramatically reduced the flow through the chiller and that has helped with the temps a bunch.
now i am just trying to PREVENT a bloom on the next round and go without bio-life. i am thinking i might be able to control pathogen levels from the start with a good UV light and proper sized pump.

 

[Loudblunts]

while your thinking is somewhat correct, its also missing alot of information.

while algae and bacteria is ubiquitous, it can be contained long as the reservoir is covered, cooled and in the dark, no light in.

whether you like it or not, at any given time bacteria is going to be everywhere. its ubiquitous like i said.... however with algae and that growing...that is caused by light leaks.

i notice you are classifying 2 different scenarios under the same umbrella. i.e. pythium and the blooms you are referencing. The algae and blooms come from light leaks.... not to mention how they feed real heavy from heavy N dosed water....however long as light leak is fix, it is no longer a problem.

Pythium/root rot is caused from overwatering which is from lack of oxygen which is generally more caused from warm water reservoir temps (water that lacks the ability to sustain life about 3-5 mg/L D.O.).

i think there is another MISCONCEPTION here.... as i've seen people think this all the time when growing in hydroponics and/or aeroponics. They blv in order to survive they need beneficial bacteria or h2o2... or some type of UV device. This is simply not true. Roots like chilled/cold water with lots of DO (dissolved oxygen) not warm water with beneficial bacteria supplements or warm water with h2o2 supplements, or warm water with a UV device as it will just negate the purpose of using it.

As long as you have proper D.O. level and cold reservoir water temps.... you are fine. you dont need either.

the thing is, people are not remembering that bad bacteria are anaerobic and cannot survive cold temps. 67-72F is not cold water. Pythium can still grow and survive in those temps.

if anything that i would worry about...would be my knowledge of force air injection. that is it has the ability to introduce air borne pathogen into the res as well as wild pH & EC fluctuation.... however this can be remedied with a filter, preferrably hepa filter on the intake of the air pump.

even still with that.... high DO levels (because bad bacteria are anaerobic) and cold water temps (they cant survive) is really all you need.

last but not least, you're method for wanting to prevent a bloom, more specifically an algae bloom is a little offset. its like using a hammer on a screw, yanno? because even you just said that algae and blooms are caused from what? light leaks right?

hope this helps

 

[jack the reaper]

oh yeah, wheels are spinnin!
air injection is dangerous. and when you compress air a by product is HEAT!
i would rather fill a bank of tanks with a scuba compressor , maybe add o2. then as the air is uncompressed very slowly into the manifolds you could more easily control the temp and not reduce the flow too much. the addition of the o2 would create unfavorable conditions for pathogens, and the scuba compressors are filtered to BREATHING quality.

this leads me to aerobic and anaerobic.
aerobic means oxygen rich, or requiring oxygen, so what are we talking about? the good guys can only survive in an oxygen rich environment, the bad guys are confined to the oxygen starved water? there arent bad bacteria that can withstand oxygen and thrive in an aerobic solution? it makes sense the decomposers would be right at home in acidic, low pH water, i just thought that some could cause trouble in well oxygenated water too.

seems scary, even though i understand what you are saying. choose, bio-life, filtration, which both adhere to the same principals which we have been describing and now the nothing at all method. you dont use beneficials?

i want to cover my res with insulating foam.
and wrap my pipes.

 

[Loudblunts]

i think the scuba compressor method would just be too much, however it may work for you

i just think cutting a piece of hepa filter and putting it on the intake of the air pump would suffice as well and prolly be easier.

and yes, the good guys are aerobic bacteria and badguys are anaerobic.

and yes you are right about low pH waters.... thas another thing....if you pH constantly drops down, then that is indicative of a pathogen problem.

and yah i have to agree with you, back when i tried to grow hydro without a chiller, shit got scary, nasty, yucky... all types of bad, so im very anal about my water now. However its not as bad now that i know what the deal is.

and yes, you can use something or you can use nothing at all.... as long as you have good enough D.O. levels and chilled water.

to answer your question.... i use beneficials...however not for the purpose that you are thinking of. I just decided to try "Great White" since i heard such great things about.

I wasnt having any problems or anything to start trying it, i just did.

I dont regularly wash out my reservoirs either. I leave that til end of grow and even then its really just a wipe and on to the next crop type of deal.

With a switch to cleaner running nutes ( H&G ) i havent had to clean as much.... but that was moreso nutrient salt buildup instead of slime....

Its kinda hard for me to get slime in my water. i keep it a nice and chilly 55-58F.

Furthermore.... i dont know if you wanna call this beneficials or whatever, but i do run a root stimulator product....which happens to be Roots Excellurator. I love this product and will rid root rot shall you get any.

however when its all said and done, chiller and high DO levels does the trick all the time :D

and yes covering and insulating of reservoirs and tubing is always a good idea

good luck with whatever you do

 

[Papa]

Its kinda hard for me to get slime in my water. i keep it a nice and chilly 55-58F.

i believe this is what DDs talked about in one of his threads. Increase the D.O. as much as possible and keep the temps low.

i've read that the optimum water temp for maximum D.O. was 59 degrees F. i would love to know the difference in D.O. capability say, between 65 and 59 degrees.

and i'd also like to know if there are any downsides to having the roots in 59 degree water.

jack, i have not been able to find good info on the efficiency of waterfalls for aeration. i've wondered about your hand watering nozzle scheme. i have read research on stones and venturis and they are both highly rated methods for increasing D.O. someone on the board posted some pics recently of their venturi that they hooked up the air pipe to an air pump to increase air pressure (and assumed efficiency).

if anyone has a d.o. meter, i'd love to see some experiments along these lines so that we can get some data to analyze.





Papa

 

[Goldenrod]

ive often wondered this myseelf. rule is no light on roots.

 

[Loudblunts]

i believe this is what DDs talked about in one of his threads. Increase the D.O. as much as possible and keep the temps low.

i've read that the optimum water temp for maximum D.O. was 59 degrees F. i would love to know the difference in D.O. capability say, between 65 and 59 degrees.

and i'd also like to know if there are any downsides to having the roots in 59 degree water.

jack, i have not been able to find good info on the efficiency of waterfalls for aeration. i've wondered about your hand watering nozzle scheme. i have read research on stones and venturis and they are both highly rated methods for increasing D.O. someone on the board posted some pics recently of their venturi that they hooked up the air pipe to an air pump to increase air pressure (and assumed efficiency).

if anyone has a d.o. meter, i'd love to see some experiments along these lines so that we can get some data to analyze.





Papa

maximum D.O. is reached around 14-16 ppms.... however that is extremely high and extremely cold water...im talking 41F or lower...stupid cold!!!

however, here's the supposed problem

phosphorus is supposed to be more readily available in warmer water. "SUPPOSEDLY" if we go below 50F we are in trouble.... however, i heard the same thing about going under 60F and i said fuck it and pushed the petal to the metal.... but thas just me as imma D.O. snob.

However, i dont think i wanna test that theory about going under 50F... as thas another reason i gave my babies some myco as more of a stress relief and nutrient uptake agent moreso than for pathogen defense.

As i thought they didnt like the 58F when they were babies... but it could have jsut been transplant shock

for your question in reference to 65F- 59F i've attached a chart that may help


far as a D.O. meter i have one, but its not working right i dont think.... so imma get another one. but those things are effin pricey $300-600 bucks but i love my toys sooooo i planned on getting another one, maybe Hanna brand or something.

also you guys are thinking a lil too much on the aeration and waterfall thing.... i mean the handle/spray nozzle looks good and all, but its not necessary.

long as you are breaking surface tension/agitating the water and a waterfall a few inches above the water helps as well.

Also.... let me not forget... with all this talk, it STILL is kinda hard for us to achieve even 70 percent of premium D.O. levels..... reason being is that salinity content and ppm come into play. Saline entities dont make room and are stingy so they leave less room for D.O.

this is another reason i suggest feeding at low EC to allow for more potential D.O.

and!!!!!! i havent reached maximum DO yet, but i think if i could, there might be a such thing as too much or too high of a level.

i do know that it can cause death in fish

 

[Loudblunts]

.....

and i'd also like to know if there are any downsides to having the roots in 59 degree water.

......

oh yea i forgot to answer this one.... sorry bro

well how about this? they say pic is worth a thou? heres a few grand.... as i can show you better than tell you

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/925138a8.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/fe114a33.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/762c11df.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/047fd551.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/2be41cdc.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/d3cd8ea4.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/7f27026c.jpg

http://i237.invalid.com/albums/ff285/420630/1141805a.jpg


again....nothing special and very much on a smaller scale, even different growing system than you guys.... but doesnt seem to be lacking either....ya dig?

with you guys super duper air pumps, yall should be getting heavy D.O...... i dont use air pumps in my aero setup...

 

[billy liar]

root rot is overhyped imo


a chiller and high DO levels will have you seeing victory

root rot/pythium is caused by low D.O. levels and warm reservoir temps along with warm root zones in hydroponic systems. Algae and the other are mainly from light leaks.


also, just cuz you have a sterile light in the rez...that doesnt mean the roots wont get it... pythium affects the roots itself, not necessarily whas in the water.


i.e. your plants have pythium and you go get a uv light to get rid of it..... dont think it works like that.... the already active root rot will just be sprayed with U/V'd water...essentially doing nothing

Now then, I have Successfully used a UV filter to combat Pythium in a very similar system, didn't totally clear it up, but did let me finish the grow with healthy plants and a good yield. letting roots sit in water below 15 c will seriously slow down growth, the optimum temp is 19 c (66 f) this is as good as you can get as compromise between, high do levels, and good plant growth.
pythium will enter your system where it can, I'm sure it can be airborne.. and when in the water will be killed by a UV filter, Just like any bacteria (good or bad). And yes its correct that UV filters cause Iron drop out, I used a product called, UV balance I think by Growth Technology. The only thing to note is that pythium WILL thrive in warmer water (once its there). adding Trichoderma (present in canna Aktrivator or AN tarantula or piranha not sure which) will help the PLANT to defend its self against any present pathogens.. another note is that ANY bacteria good or bad, will thrive off high DO, and adding bacteria, should be done with caution in these systems.. I have this on authority from AN themselves...
peace
BL

 

[Papa]

....ya dig?

yeh. that's what i'm talkin' bout!

and yeh, d.o. meters r expensive. that's why i don't have one. but if you get yours working again, or another (you tool hound!) how about checking out the efficiency of different airstones, venturis, and waterfalls? most of these dwc systems are using airstones up the kazoo, but i've seen no data supporting that is the best method. if a simple waterfall is just as efficient, i would like to know that (with the numbers). i could do without the airpumps and lines and stones!

it makes total sense that the increase in tds affects the d.o. numbers. i wonder what that graph of d.o. and temps would look like with the stuff we put in the water?

'great to see your roots happy at 56 degrees. a senior farmer here said just a couple months ago that that would kill a plant. i read lots of opinions, but i like to see the experiments myself.








Papa

 

[Loudblunts]

Now then, I have Successfully used a UV filter to combat Pythium in a very similar system, didn't totally clear it up, but did let me finish the grow with healthy plants and a good yield. letting roots sit in water below 15 c will seriously slow down growth, the optimum temp is 19 c (66 f) this is as good as you can get as compromise between, high do levels, and good plant growth.
pythium will enter your system where it can, I'm sure it can be airborne.. and when in the water will be killed by a UV filter, Just like any bacteria (good or bad). And yes its correct that UV filters cause Iron drop out, I used a product called, UV balance I think by Growth Technology. The only thing to note is that pythium WILL thrive in warmer water (once its there). adding Trichoderma (present in canna Aktrivator or AN tarantula or piranha not sure which) will help the PLANT to defend its self against any present pathogens.. another note is that ANY bacteria good or bad, will thrive off high DO, and adding bacteria, should be done with caution in these systems.. I have this on authority from AN themselves...
peace
BL

LMAO authority from AN..... no seriously? thas your final answer? AN as in Advanced Nutrients?

if so..... enuff said :x

everything i posted are facts and have been around for a while...it can be googled...not to mention these are real life experiments..... The info is not tooled by some company trying to make money and hustle snake oil coughANcough

so tell me billyliar...how many Kushie Kush bottles did you buy? :)

 

[Loudblunts]

yeh. that's what i'm talkin' bout!

and yeh, d.o. meters r expensive. that's why i don't have one. but if you get yours working again, or another (you tool hound!) how about checking out the efficiency of different airstones, venturis, and waterfalls? most of these dwc systems are using airstones up the kazoo, but i've seen no data supporting that is the best method. if a simple waterfall is just as efficient, i would like to know that (with the numbers). i could do without the airpumps and lines and stones!

it makes total sense that the increase in tds affects the d.o. numbers. i wonder what that graph of d.o. and temps would look like with the stuff we put in the water?

'great to see your roots happy at 56 degrees. a senior farmer here said just a couple months ago that that would kill a plant. i read lots of opinions, but i like to see the experiments myself.








Papa

sure no prob.

im also dying to do some more testing because i would like to see if even dropping the chiller to a colder temp is even worth it in reference to cost to run chiller at that temp (which isnt much difference, but STILL). i mean if i dont gotta go that, then why go that low, yanno?

 

[Papa]

i mean if i dont gotta go that, then why go that low, yanno?

that's what i'm sayin'! and everyone seems to have an opinion and "facts" about this . . . but [like you] i wanna see the raw data dude!

or geez, we could just ask some salesman. snicker, snicker, lol

actually seeing your temp rockin' it at 56 degrees is worth thousands of words. i wanna see the identical setup right next to it at 65 degrees. then we could compare the delta cost to results and value engineer the sucker on real data!







Papa

 

[Loudblunts]

right on!!!

 

[jack the reaper]

yo, i got numbers right here! i just ask around then take the average of everybodys answers and viola! the ANSWER!

really tho, it would be fun to be able to mess with a meter. it would also be good to know what the temp is in the ground in the summer, brob around a constant 55F.

check this other thread i started about protein skimming if you havnt seen it yet. it seems to be heading in the same direction, that is, forget UV, protein skimmers, venturis etc and keep your cold water moving and falling.