Weird growth in flower? How far along do they look? *pix*

[greenergrowing4]

This is a 2 part question for all of you experienced growers out there. I know the ladies look good, Im sure the finished product will be stellar but Id still like to know what makes them do what they do.

So my question is why the top colas have this weird leafy growth, some 3 blades and not the ones coming right from the bud but some that are extended so you can clearly see there are 3 blades and look sort of deformed. They are also scrunching and twisting slightly... it just doesnt look right. If it was happening to all of them I would say that maybe its the strain but for some reason maybe 2-3 plants arent doing this and on almost all of them the side branches dont do it either.

Here is a normal top cola and side branch

here are the deformed looking top colas

I have been feeding 5ml/gallon of calmag per feeding because of an early problem but I have stopped that for the last feeding. Calmag has extra N and I wonder if this maybe a problem.

I was also PHing much too high for coco at 6.4 which I am lowering to 6.2 this feeding and 6.0 the next. There is 3/4 coco and 1/4 soil so I dont know if it should be lower.

I also thought it could possibly be a light leak but the plants closest to where I assumed there was a leak were not as affected as others that were random in the garden. I have since also covered these semi light leaks that were not even big enough for me to see my hand 2 inches from my face.

Everyone is telling me they look fine but if so why would this only happen to the top colas??

Second question is how far along do you think they look? Do they look 26 days from harvest? Some people are saying they only look 3 weeks in when I am now in my 5th week so I would like to know now so I can adjust my feeding schedule.

These are cotton candy from federation seeds, 56 day flowering time

 

[E.T.]

it looks to be a ph issue. that will lead to distorted leaf growth and curling leaves....eventually nutrient lockout. it will even stunt the growth of plants, that could explain why ur ladies look so far behind...

 

[Seamaiden]

I have seen that ONCE, and it was my first coco run with my light (600W HPS) on a mover. I never did determine what caused it, but I believe it may have had to do with the light because it was the top colas on the center plants that formed the weirdness. I figure this because the plants at the center of the light got the most light (hard to explain unless you've seen how a mover goes, it pauses shortly at each end, but for each pass each end gets the middle gets two). Hardened and enlarged calyxes, not quite foxtailing but undesirable nonetheless.

Those girls look to be 3 weeks into flower, give or take.

 

[smokestack23]

A lot of times (depending on what is deficient or at toxic levels) problems will appear more drastic on plants closer to the light source because they are metabolizing a lot faster. Like...say you have a Mg deficiency. Plants directly under or nearer the light source will show symptoms first.

Anyway...I don't THINK it's a light leak...usually those cause some major stretching ...like...you'll have a nice "cluster" on the main cola and then the stalk will shoot right out the top of it and keep making sparse flowers. I don't know if that's what's called "foxtailing" or not but...

You definitely have some stress of some sort going on though since your flowers are not that developed yet (I suppose it COULD just be a real slow strain?) and you have those goofy leaves. Both could be kinda normal depending on the strain sometimes though.

I've never grown in coco but your ph levels don't seem TOO far off. Certainly not in any DANGER ranges I don't think. Again though..no experience with coco. Then again, I don't have a graph handy but...nitrogen might be very abundant with coco in that range. Your leaves are very dark green. Looks like they're getting a TON of N. You're pretty far into flowering. But..again...it's so dependent on factors like strain and stuff.

You mentioned how long they are from harvest but you didn't say how long they've been in flower. If they're more than 4 full weeks in, I hate to say it but...you're gonna have a pretty diminished yield no matter what you do now. That's just MY opinion. I could be wrong and hope I am. I'm pretty rusty at this. I've been off for a bunch of years but..I think your assumptions about too much N might be right on.

Wish I could be more helpful and more positive.

 

[Melvan]

Get the ph down to 5.8.

Why do people feel the need to mix growing mediums? Why not just use straight soil or straight coco? Better yet, only use Pro-Mix BX and really make your life easy.

If too much N is pushed during flower the plant will start pushing out more new leaf growth instead of pistils from the bud. That is what you have going on.

Back off the N. Drop your cal/mag to every 3rd water. 5 weeks in you should be giving a 2-8-4 nute and a supplement that is around 0-50-30.

 

[greenergrowing4]

Thanks everyone I finally have answers! Sorry I forgot to mention these pictures were taken on day 30. I have written this so many times on other forums this was my last try and a bit lacking on info. Honestly everyone just answers "they look fine" and it was driving me crazy.

I am feeding lucas formula 8-0-16, I was thinking of changing to heads lucas formula of 6-0-9 for coco. Ill cut back on the calmag since the problem was only in veg, Ill prob just not use it at all unless I see a problem. I have been using MOAB as a bloom booster but only in the first 2 and last 2 weeks. Honestly I noticed this problem start to get worse when I stopped so last feeding I added a bit in hoping it would slow this crap down until I could figure it out. I am also using snow storm that is very high in K, I hear that coco is either high in K or makes it more available so I wonder if the snow storm could be causing and issue as well. None of my other additives have anything that could interferer but Ill write out a list in the next post.
Is there really nothing I can do now to get their full potential? I cant believe they are that high in N, but then again calmag is almost half the N of micro so I just walked myself into this :worried

I do have a third table that is 10 days behind these so I hope I can save them from this future trouble.

I was originally growing in soil and using coco as an additive but there was more coco then soil available and this is how it turned out. Next run I am going all coco, I really like how it holds water. Since I didnt intend to go mostly coco I didnt realize my PH was so very high. I check the charts and I should be aiming for 5.5-6.0 where 6.0 is actually very high. I can very much see that as causing the weird leaves toward the top and the extra N atributing to all the "fluff". The light situation also seems to be true that only the ones that were closest to the light show this big of a problem where the side branches seem almost perfect.

Thank you thank you, I feel less crazy now.

 

[greenergrowing4]

Here are the nutrients and additives I'm using:
GH Micro, Grow, Bloom - 8-0-16 <lucas formula
Hygrozyme - 6ml/gal
Liquid Karma - 7ml/gal (.1-.1-.5)
Calmag 7ml/gal (2-0-0) =-o
MOAB 1ml/gal (1-52-32)
Snow Storm 2.5ml/gal (0-0-3)
Silica Blast 5ml/gal every other feeding
Molasses 5ml/gal every other feeding
Great white every 10 days

PHed to 6.4 until last feeding, will work it down .2 at a time until I get to 5.8 or can I just go straight down?

Should I start the MOAB now and keep it going until the end of harvest or will this just add more problems.

 

[motherlode]

its been awhile since I used the silica blast product

but 5ml gal seems high to me

I would make a half strength base nute solution at 5.8 and flush them

this will help correct your ph issue and also help with any salt buildup you may have

 

[greenergrowing4]

Thank you ill do that today. Here is the instructions to silica blast. Ill cut back on that as well. Do you guys think giving them an extra week will help with all the issues here?

For Container Gardens - Use 1 teaspoon Silica Blast per gallon of water (2.5 - 5 ml / 4 liters) every, or every other watering.

For Hydroponics - Mid size plants use 1/2 teaspoon per gallon (2.5 ml/4 liters). Mature plants use 1 teaspoon per gallon (5 ml / 4 liters). Apply to reservoir every 5 - 7 days. Adjust pH to 6.0. One teaspoon per gallon of Silica Blast (5 ml / 4 liters) per 4 liters (1 gallon) of water will achieve 105 ppm silicate.

 

[smokestack23]

I should probably shut up. It's hard to give advice in case I'm wrong..for two reasons. I'm embarrassed to be shown that I was wrong but especially because it would really suck to give some advice that does more bad than good.

Like I said..I'm pretty rusty and quite old school. I don't know what many additives do and I'm not familiar with coco. I'm sure that some "booster" additives are bogus and some probably work wonders. I just don't know which is which so I stay away. I feel that if you have decent nutes they "should" have everything the plants need. I use Holland's Secret Bloom, Grow, and Micro 3-part. Manipulating the ratios of each gives you a lot of options. Why wouldn't everything the plants need be in there? Well they must not be because Holland's Secret makes lots of additives to go with their nute lines. Pisses me off slightly.

I'd think though that coco is inert, meaning no minerals or salts in it and a "neutral" ph? It shouldn't "add" any P...unless, as you already know, it causes the ph to move to a place where P is more available. I DID read somewhere the PH levels of the popular mediums. Can't remember where coco is though sorry.

You can take your ph to where you want it all at once. It IS good IMO to let it drift around a bit within reason though...meaning, I don't make my res stay at exactly 5.8 or whatever. I'll let it go up to like 6.5 before bringing it back down. Not that it drifts much or at all. The point is that that safe range is fairly wide and gives your plants some variety. There's much more to it but yeah.

As for you not getting much more bulk from those plants...you will get some...maybe significantly more. From my experience though, it's pretty hard to "lengthen" the flower cycle. As in...they do the stretch, then they pack on flowers, then they bloat, fatten and ripen. Hopefully yours still have some "pack on the flowers" time left in that part of the cycle before they start to ripen.

I'm a little confused on your main nute numbers. Other than the MOAB? everything seems pretty anemic in the P department. Just as an example...if you were using hardware store nutes, you'd use something like 30-15-15 for veg and 15-30-15 or 10-52-10 for flower. Of course DON'T use hardware store nutes with those numbers for your plants but that's kinda how they should add-up.

The only "additives" I use are things like SM-90, Great White (not together of course), some epsom salts IF I see a Mg problem..usually just as a foliar spray though. Again...if a nute manufacturer's line doesn't have enough Cal or Mg....why wouldn't they just add more to the nutes rather than sell it as an additive? For instance...these nutes I use are "designed" for hydro use. Why should they need supplemental Mg or calcium when used in hydro units? Some will say that you'll only need CalMag if you use RO water because there isnt any of either in it. Well my tap water has a LOT more than just cal and mag in it. Why do I not have to add Iron, Sulphur, copper, phosphates (lol) when using RO water?
I dunno...for me, if I use RO water and the ph is within range and I'm giving the correct ppms, I don't have any obvious deficiencies.

Oh...I have used molasses in peat/pearlite grows. Didn't notice a difference.
and finally...people mix mediums to get a combination of what they need. some people need better drainage or better retention...or somewhere in between...some people want some buffering but not TOO much, some mediums have a higher or lower ph...you know.

Anyway...I'm glad I was able to help a bit and sorry for all the long-windedness.

 

[Melvan]

I'm a little confused on your main nute numbers. Other than the MOAB? everything seems pretty anemic in the P department. Just as an example...if you were using hardware store nutes, you'd use something like 30-15-15 for veg and 15-30-15 or 10-52-10 for flower. Of course DON'T use hardware store nutes with those numbers for your plants but that's kinda how they should add-up.

15-30-15 is way too much n for indoor flower. I'll go that high when I do my outdoor, but not inside.

This exactly how I feed, my grow is in my sig to see results.

I grow in Pro-Mix BX or Canadian Grow Mix, whichever is around, both are identical.

Veg: Miracle Gro Bustin Bloomz 15-30-15
Flower 1) First 2 Weeks: Tiger Bloom 2-8-4 tsp per gallon and FF Open Sesame 5-45-19 1/4 tsp per gallon 2) Week 3-6 keep Tiger Bloom, drop Open Sesame, replace with FF Beastie Bloomz 0-50-30 1/4 tsp per gallon. 3) Week 6 to harvest, keep Tiger Bloom, drop BB, add FF Cha Ching 9-50-10 1/4 tsp/gal. I feed with every watering, which is why I use 1/4 strength everything. Let me just add that I love this FF trio due to the trace elements. Use to be I'd have to add a bit of this and a bit of that to be sure all my trace elements were available, this trio handles all of that.

Keeping this schedule I very rarely have nute issues, and if I do it's because I screwed up my measuring or something.

 

[greenergrowing4]

I'd think though that coco is inert, meaning no minerals or salts in it and a "neutral" ph? It shouldn't "add" any P...unless, as you already know, it causes the ph to move to a place where P is more available. I DID read somewhere the PH levels of the popular mediums. Can't remember where coco is though sorry.

I have been trying to read as much as I can about coco these past few weeks and one thing that I always catch is the high K.

Coco coir contains significant amounts of phosphorous (10-50ppm) and potassium (150-450 ppm)

As for you not getting much more bulk from those plants...you will get some...maybe significantly more. From my experience though, it's pretty hard to "lengthen" the flower cycle. As in...they do the stretch, then they pack on flowers, then they bloat, fatten and ripen. Hopefully yours still have some "pack on the flowers" time left in that part of the cycle before they start to ripen.

I really hope so but Im glad I caught all this before the 3rd table got too far along.

Some will say that you'll only need CalMag if you use RO water because there isnt any of either in it. Well my tap water has a LOT more than just cal and mag in it. Why do I not have to add Iron, Sulphur, copper, phosphates (lol) when using RO water?
I dunno...for me, if I use RO water and the ph is within range and I'm giving the correct ppms, I don't have any obvious deficiencies.

I do use RO water and I had a magor problem with CA and MG early on so I pushed the calmag but I should have stopped a while ago.

Anyway...I'm glad I was able to help a bit and sorry for all the long-windedness.

Thank you for taking the time, I wasnt getting anywhere on other forums so Im really glad to hear any and all opinions.

 

[motherlode]

15-30-15 is way too much n for indoor flower. I'll go that high when I do my outdoor, but not inside.

This exactly how I feed, my grow is in my sig to see results.

I grow in Pro-Mix BX or Canadian Grow Mix, whichever is around, both are identical.

Veg: Miracle Gro Bustin Bloomz 15-30-15
Flower 1) First 2 Weeks: Tiger Bloom 2-8-4 tsp per gallon and FF Open Sesame 5-45-19 1/4 tsp per gallon 2) Week 3-6 keep Tiger Bloom, drop Open Sesame, replace with FF Beastie Bloomz 0-50-30 1/4 tsp per gallon. 3) Week 6 to harvest, keep Tiger Bloom, drop BB, add FF Cha Ching 9-50-10 1/4 tsp/gal. I feed with every watering, which is why I use 1/4 strength everything. Let me just add that I love this FF trio due to the trace elements. Use to be I'd have to add a bit of this and a bit of that to be sure all my trace elements were available, this trio handles all of that.

Keeping this schedule I very rarely have nute issues, and if I do it's because I screwed up my measuring or something.

miracle grow UGHHHHHH

funny you say in one sentence you never go that high and then you list miracle grow the exact same numbers

 

[greenergrowing4]

Ok so far this is what I plan to do. Tonight when lights come on I will flush with half base nutes and PH at 5.8

After this I will cut out the calmag all together and cut the silica in half.

I could also do the following, what do you guys think.
Add in the bloom booster from now until harvest, they were scheduled to start this tomorrow either way... but will I be adding another week to flower or not?
Is this going to effect the yield because the buds did not have time to form properly as they were hindered in growth? I could just cut the side branches on the scheduled time and leave the tops to continue for another week?
I could also change to heads lucas for coco recipe that is 6-0-9 to account for the extra P and K in coco, is this a good idea or should I continue what Ive been doing.

 

[Melvan]

You should always harvest in stages anyways. I take the tops, leave the rest a few days, take the middle section, leave the rest a few days more to finish.

How much longer they stay in flower all depends on the trichs. You need to get a 30x scope (Radio Shack) so you can look at the crystals and see that all the clear is gone, that all are at least cloudy, and then with as much amber as you're looking for. You want less amber for head buzz, more amber for body buzz. That's the only way you'll know for sure she's ready, and which buds are ready.

The weeks the breeder suggests are just that, suggestions. Don't think that because it says 9 weeks you will be harvesting on day 63, it doesn't work like that.

Keep the N low, the P & K higher and you'll be fine.

 

[greenergrowing4]

I understand how to harvest, beleieve it not I've been doing this for a long time. But in this situation I am wondering what the increased N will do and if I should be expecting the top colas to be ready last as opposed to them always being ready first. If I should expect this to take longer then normal or will there be just the lower yield.

 

[smokestack23]

When to harvest...The new hightimes has a decent article that you can agree with or not. Personally, I like to let em get over-ripe. Lots of amber. ...well...a good amount. The way I see it is (and this may seem unethical?) that the more "couchlocky" the buds are the more potent "civilians" think they are. AND..the more amber, the more couchlock..I find anyway.HOWEVER, you also have to consider weight. Are you gonna get more weight (crops per year) by leaving em in the flower room "too long" or by chopping them at their peak production and put fresh ones in?Needless to say, I usually don't see much amber these days.
Back to the HT article. They said that some trichs were tested. They extracted the "juice" outta them with a "tiny" needle and analysed it. They started to lose thc right after the clear stage. Less thc when milky and even less thc when amber. Whether this is accurate or not, I still think that the more narcotic the buzz, the more "potent" it "seems".
They liken it to fruit. you don't buy over-ripened fruit do you? I say though...the more ripe the fruit the more sugar.
Anyway...in my world, sometimes the tops are ready first, sometimes the bottoms and sometimes the sides. You have to find a happy medium that takes into account both potency and also the "get em the fuck outta there and get some new ones IN!!" factor.

As for what you should do with the oldest ones now...again...no clue on coco but...that stuff might have a TON of residual salts in it by now. I know you aren't a rookie. This is more for "new people" to the ummm...scene?.
The way I used to explain it to my "apprentices" or homeowners/babysitters was.:
Think of the medium. Every time we flood the table or water the medium, whichever the case was, imagine that the nutrient solution is colored say..red or BLACK.
You do ONE ebb flow cycle and now the rwool is BLACK. How many flushes do you figure it would take until ALL the black stuff is gone? A LOT!!! If we were doing a bed on the floor or a table whos medium was say sunshine mix that was "unfloodable"..or unleachable, you're ALWAYS gonna have some black in there. If the black "dye" you used was actually a combination of a bunch of other colors (representing all the other elements) your medium might look red or blue after a while because all the other colors (nutes) were consumed. Now you have NO clue as to just what concentrations of WHAT are in there.

SO...ALWAYS remember how much "stuff" is still in your medium.

If you can safely leach that coco stuff...and I think you can, I'd try to rinse them right out. I'd give them just some flower nutes and or additives...hardly any N. AND...I'd give it to them pretty diluted. maybe 1/3rd strength?..and not for long. If that coco holds much "black" you're gonna need to start flushing soon. But..REMEMBER...I have NO experience with that stuff so I might be telling you to starve your plants. Hopefully someone with more practise with the coco can chime-in.

All in all though...your plants do look healthy. I mean it could be a LOT worse. They just look like they have an over abundance of N. The only thing I hate about growing is that it's ALWAYS "next time". Next time I'll make SURE that doesn't happen, or ..next time I'll do this differently.....it's always something isn't it!

WAY too many words again..I know...sorry.

 

[greenergrowing4]

They extracted the "juice" outta them with a "tiny" needle and analysed it. They started to lose thc right after the clear stage. Less thc when milky and even less thc when amber. Whether this is accurate or not, I still think that the more narcotic the buzz, the more "potent" it "seems".

I have also heard this and Im thinking because I have 3 tables that I can play around with this and harvest some at cloudy and some part amber. It seems everyone can agree that a lot of amber wouldnt be ideal. Yet I know a pretty decent grower out here that lets his buds "ferment" on the stem lol.
I know when to harvest will always be of personal preference but when you produce for a group and or have to vend to other collectives you have to produce what is best for moneys sake. If you have buyers lined up, go for cloudy... it might add a harvest per year. If not you might need that kick you on your butt effect that can be felt right away. I still wonder tho why it feels that way if the THC is being degraded further into amber. I also wonder about the effects of THC and what really makes up the super stoned feeling. We have a friend that is very into making all sorts of concentrates, and the highest rated for THC tend to make me more hyper then stoned. But I think thats another discussion lol

As for what you should do with the oldest ones now...again...no clue on coco but...that stuff might have a TON of residual salts in it by now. I know you aren't a rookie. This is more for "new people" to the ummm...scene?.
The way I used to explain it to my "apprentices" or homeowners/babysitters was.:

I have now learned that you dont flush or leach as often as with soil, which is one mistake I am thankful for. This whole time I was feeding-watering-feeding which I think helped the salts not stick as much, but I may have wasted a ton of food. My run off is pretty much the color it goes in, very clean. So so much cleaner then soil and I like that. The PH of the run off is also at 6 so thankfully doesnt seem crazy high as I think it would be if I had rarley flushed with water.

All in all though...your plants do look healthy. I mean it could be a LOT worse. They just look like they have an over abundance of N. The only thing I hate about growing is that it's ALWAYS "next time". Next time I'll make SURE that doesn't happen, or ..next time I'll do this differently.....it's always something isn't it!

There is always a next time if you change things and thats my main problem. Ive changed things up a lot and although I like where its going the learning process caught me off guard. Its been a long time since I can remember feeling like I have no idea whats going on. My boyfriend hates me for this but Im sticking with coco, like you said "next time will be better"

:party0042:

 

[smokestack23]

When things go perfectly it's kinda boring though. I like messing with my girls. When everything's going right I just stand in there and watch them. I'm back in there a half hour later still with nothing to do.
It IS easier to sleep at night though.

Summer should keep us all occupied with issues of heat, humidity, insects, fungi..blah blah blah... THOSE kind of festivities I can do without!!

 

[greenergrowing4]

Haha must be exciting. I would like to get things dialed in here so I can move on to the others, our collective has multiple grows going and all but this one are total disasters. Thankfully we were able to build this one from the start ourselves and keep a close eye, later in the week are visiting one that by the pictures looks like it snowed powedery mildew. If you need more action you should have my job, I could really use a vacation :smiley_joint:

When things go perfectly it's kinda boring though. I like messing with my girls. When everything's going right I just stand in there and watch them. I'm back in there a half hour later still with nothing to do.
It IS easier to sleep at night though.

Summer should keep us all occupied with issues of heat, humidity, insects, fungi..blah blah blah... THOSE kind of festivities I can do without!!