What are the best organic nutrients that I can make or buy?

[Seamaiden]

PBP is not organic. I personally hate how it drops pH like a flipping rock, down into the low 4s. YMMV.

However! If anyone here keeps herps, I'm going to suggest collecting their waste. It's guano, derived from...? Depends on the herp/animal. We used to have a leopard gecko, Yoshi, and I would always use the sand from his cage in my potted plants of all sorts, and especially the flowering plants would just go nucking FUTZ when given a top-dressing of Yoshisand.

Nothing stinks quite as badly as a snake cage. Wait.... correction. Dead aquatic turtles is a stink no one can appreciate til they've been there.

 

[Hermitian]

Do you have a local (so.cal) source for Neem Meal? I can only find small boxes at a farm supply. Neem Resource . com is suppose to have top notch neem products.

It is cheaper on the west coast (from an real farm supplier) because it arrives by boat directly from the source. It is more expensive in the interior of the U.S. because of the cost of shipping. On the other hand, soybean meal can be found from grower/suppliers in the mid west far cheaper than here in San Diego.

Ok so I have a ton of calcium. Will/can this cause an imbalance with other nutrients that I should be concerned with?

Too much Calcium inhibits the uptake of several important nutrients, and also makes your soil more alkaline.

Could you elaborate on the sulfur and acids a little?

Sulfur is acid-forming. The more sulfur you add, the more acidic the soil becomes. With your present formulation, there is a lot of calcium and a lot of sulfur which probably results in a somewhat neutral pH -- but at the cost of locking up a lot of nutrients.

I do use a humic acid product that contains trace minerals. Cu at .31% and Zn at .7% also Fe at 1.2%

Oh that's great. I'm relieved and so are your plants.

The Crab Shell is used for it's chitin content as well as the Ca.

You don't need it. It's just a way to sell piles of crab shells that the fishery is no longer permitted to dump in the ocean.

Rock dust people being unscrupulous seems a little harsh compared to the the industry that drives our hobby. lol

Rock dust, or more precisely "crusher dust" is available for free. Further, the quarries are not permitted to dump it just anywhere, so they actually pay others to take truckloads of it. The rock dust craze was started by an enterprising materials company on the east coast who gets you to pay for their excess crusher dust. If you are putting in a potting mix, the minerals will not start to be released in significant quantities until long after you have discarded the soil (3 years).

I do think rock dust adds value to the mix even if its longer term.

The immediate benefit of rock dust is in the physical structure (not nutrient) that it adds to a soil like yours which is primarily derived from plant matter. Again, I would just go to a rock quarry that produces aggregate for the construction industry and see if they have either (a) "horticultural sand" for sale, it will have particle size from about 3/16 inch and smaller including crusher dust, or (b) crusher dust you can cart away in a 5-gallon bucket.

I'll follow up on the remainder of your post and Seamaiden's data later tonight.

 

[mike hunt]

This is the mix I was thinking about mixing up. But after reading this post, maybe not.

3x alfalfa meal
3x linseed/flaxseed meal
1x soybean meal
1x canola/rape seed meal
1x sunflower meal (this had to be sourced from an organic dairy as it seems that sunflower meal is used to increase milk production. Don't bother - LOL)
1x organic fish meal (nitrogen)
1x organic fish bone meal (phosphorus)
.5x kelp meal
.5x neem seed meal
.5x crustacean

 

[mrbong73]

This is the mix I was thinking about mixing up. But after reading this post, maybe not.

3x alfalfa meal
3x linseed/flaxseed meal
1x soybean meal
1x canola/rape seed meal
1x sunflower meal (this had to be sourced from an organic dairy as it seems that sunflower meal is used to increase milk production. Don't bother - LOL)
1x organic fish meal (nitrogen)
1x organic fish bone meal (phosphorus)
.5x kelp meal
.5x neem seed meal
.5x crustacean

Ah yes I recognize that list. There have been many variations of that since.
Do you already have those ingredients? If not you could narrow it down a little and still have a quality dry fert mix.
IMO, its the quality of the humus component that is the driving force behind a good soil mix. Sourcing quality worm castings and compost. or better yet making your own should be near the top of your list.

 

[mike hunt]

Ah yes I recognize that list. There have been many variations of that since.
Do you already have those ingredients? If not you could narrow it down a little and still have a quality dry fert mix.
IMO, its the quality of the humus component that is the driving force behind a good soil mix. Sourcing quality worm castings and compost. or better yet making your own should be near the top of your list.

I was thinking about getting some Malibu compost, and some Agrowinn EWC. I dont have ingredients yet, so no big deal. Im still trying to find a suitable location to move in to. Very slim pickins round these parts.

 

[Blaze]

Hey Hermitian, good info on the azomite and rock powders. I was not aware about the azmoite's sodium content either. As far as what I consider organic, I consider naturally mined minerals to be organic, but I do not like epson salts.

Anyway, I'll bite - here's what we've been using in our soil lately. It varies every year - still trying to fine tune it more and more each time. This year has worked the best so far - no deficiencies or imbalances and very minimal additional inputs have been needed.

The original base was some certified organic soil from a local company that was made of a sandy loam base, with 1/4- fir bark, crushed red lava rock, Blood Meal, Feather Meal, Dr. Iron, horse and cow manure, grape and apple pomace, rice hulls, greensand and soft rock phosphate. Had a comprehensive test done by Fruit Growers Lab Inc. and the end of the last year to see where we were at. Everything came back good for the most part - N was low, organic matter was low (for cannabis), but pH and physical properties were good, and the other macros and micros were all in moderate ranges.

Re-amended this year with composted dairy cow manure, feather meal, plus some steamed bone meal, seaweed meal, cal phos, a granular humic acid product, Mykos, and small amount of azomite. For additional N, a micronized 7-3-1 bat guano has been getting top dressed ever 2-3 weeks. Everything was mulched with a "vineyard mulch" which is mostly woody vineyard waste that has been chipped up. Will be switching to something more balanced, like a 4-6-2 guano here soon, then finishing with a high phos guano. Also did a few smart pots with a blend of blood meal and feather meal and no bat guano and those have also done well. I like how the bat guano works but I know it is often not harvested in a very sustainable manner so I am interested in using waste products from other industries, such as the feather and blood meals, for my source of N.

 

[mrbong73]

I use both of those products as well. Agrowinn is the only EWC that I will buy.
Kelp, Alfalfa, Fish Bone, and Neem should be on the list. Maybe one more source of N but if you find Neem you should be good. I prefer Fish over Blood but that's just me.

Edit: Blaze your soil mix sounds very nice. Good job, I bet the plants are doing great.

 

[mike hunt]

I use both of those products as well. Agrowinn is the only EWC that I will buy.
Kelp, Alfalfa, Fish Bone, and Neem should be on the list. Maybe one more source of N but if you find Neem you should be good. I prefer Fish over Blood but that's just me.

Edit: Blaze your soil mix sounds very nice. Good job, I bet the plants are doing great.

Is the Malibu Compost good stuff?

 

[Blaze]

Blaze your soil mix sounds very nice. Good job, I bet the plants are doing great.

Neither me nor the plants are complaining :)

Posted this pic in Tobor's outdoor thread, was taken 2 days ago:

 

[mike hunt]

neem powder, cake, or meal?

 

[Hermitian]

... I am interested in using waste products from other industries, such as the feather and blood meals, for my source of N.

I'm not so impressed with feather meal, but blood meal is a great choice. Some people worry about pharmaceutical residues, but if your source is a major supplier that has baked it to powder -- they get tested by the health department so I wouldn't worry.

Now the deal with Blood Meal is that it is higher in Nitrogen (percentage by weight) than most "natural" and "certified organic" sources. This strangely enough allows us to make bloom formulas that are lower in percent nitrogen because the blood meal is taking up less total weight.

OK, now I'm going to try and teach you natural, holistic, vegan, vegged out farmers to fish!

Yesterday I posted an analysis for Mr. Bong of his nutrients and then a recommendation (see "Putting it all together", here). I calculated all that by using a spreadsheet tool. I assume most of you know how to use a spreadsheet like Microsoft Excel? Here it is, with the values I used on Mr. Bong's nutrients:

>> Fertilizer Mix Calculator <<​

It's called "MarleyMeal.xls" - due to Mr. Bong's avatar.

Instructions

1. You can change any of the names or data below them, but don't mess with the totals or the calculated values to the right.
2. I was lazy creating this, so micronutrient values are not listed.
3. Notice that the value under each name is LBS (pounds). Fertilizer is measured by weight, not volume.
4. The quantity of each nutrient is in percentage by weight, just like you'll find it on a product label or in an online reference guide to raw materials. If you are looking up a value for something (perhaps smelt eggs), don't take the word of just one site. Recall that about half the internet is written by high school students, the other half by marketeers, and a small portion by people who actually are familiar with the subject.
5. Your Goal. On the far right it says "N : P : K". These are ratios, not percentages. For growth stage, you would like 1 : 1 : 1. For Bloom Stage you would like 1 : 2 : 2 (good) or 1 : 5 : 5 (max). Try to keep the Magnesium (Mg) to Calcium (Ca) ratio about 1 : 3 (yeah, 2:3 or 2:5 is ok). Also keep the total percentage of Calcium below 5% when growing in soil and the total Sulfur below 4% when growing in soil for the Cannabis crop.

I hope this helps everyone who has jumped on the thread overnight to make some rough calculations of what they've been doing -- and perhaps improve it.

Now if this isn't helping, or you have questions about using it go ahead and ask for help.

O.K., so using whatever you feel is "natural" or "organic" -- see if you can come up with combinations to make mixes with N-P-K percentages close to these:
9-9-9
2-10-10
6-6-9

 

[mrbong73]

Is the Malibu Compost good stuff?

I think it's a good choice for a bagged compost product. Organic dairy cow manure composted with biodynamic preparations.
Better than the sticks and twigs you get from other "compost" products.
Homemade (vermi)compost is the way to go if possible.

neem powder, cake, or meal?

Not sure about powder but cake or meal is what I have seen. Look into neem resource they have neem and karanja meals/cake and oil.

Hey Mr. Bong,

Putting it all together. The follow recipes are by weight, not volume.
GROWTH

4 x Neem Seed Meal
1 x Bone Meal
1 x K-Mag
1.75 x Soft Rock Phosphate
​

This will yield a mix with an approximate N-P-K of 3-3-3 with Ca-Mg at about 3%, 1%. Use the amount of K-Mag as your guide. 1 level Tablespoon of K-Mag per 3-4 weeks for a 1 foot high-plant in a 2-gallon container is plenty. Do not mix into soil, but instead distribute on top where the irrigation water will hit it and cover with an inch or two of mulch (coarse) not compost (fine).

Then, about 1-2 weeks before transition change to
PRODUCTION (proportioned by weight, not volume)

4 x Neem Seed Meal
2 x Bone Meal
2 x K-Mag
3 x Soft Rock Phosphate
​

This formula is about 2-4-4 with Ca-Mg at 5.5%, 2%. The plants are now larger. Again, let the weight of K-Mag be your guide. Use 2 Tablespoons K-Mag every 3-4 weeks and if the plants exceed 5 feet then use 4 Tablespoons K-Mag every 3-4 weeks.

So, that's my 2-cents. How does this compare with what you are doing?

So if 1 TBS of K Mag weighs 28g then we are using 28g as 1x in the veg mix and 56g as 1x in the bloom mix. (For a single serving)
Is that correct?
I don't have a good scale for measuring these things in bulk so it has been easier to go with cups.

Are you familiar with Dr. Albrecht's work as it relates to calcium in the soil? He advised a healthy soil have a considerable amount calcium to be at peak performance. [cite]

Thanks for the spreadsheat. That will be fun to play around with.

mrbong

 

[Blaze]

Care to elaborate why you do not care for feather meal Hermitian?

Ya know that is sort of funny you mention blood meal being a great choice. Almost every grower I spoke to about it had a very negative view of blood meal, yet could not give me a logical reason not to use it. So far I like the results - in fact the plants that got a mix of blood and feather took off faster than the plants that just got feather.

 

[Illmind]

damn blaze looks dope. what are those 40 gal beds each plants in?

 

[organikn8]

I didnt read all the posts just wanted to give my say

Medi-one from green planet is the best stuff ive ever used and im pretty sure its 100% organic plus its got an omri approval

 

[Hermitian]

So if 1 TBS of K Mag weighs 28g then we are using 28g as 1x in the veg mix and 56g as 1x in the bloom mix. (For a single serving) Is that correct? I don't have a good scale for measuring these things in bulk so it has been easier to go with cups.

A grower without a scale is a curious thing! But yes, you've got the dosage correct.

I refrain from stating volume measurements because its too hard to get it right. For example, a cup of fine grain neem meal weighs twice as much as a cup of coarse grain neem (or whatever). The contents of fertilizer is percentage by weight, so it is important to get the measurement in the right ballpark.

Are you familiar with Dr. Albrecht's work as it relates to calcium in the soil?

He was dealing with soils with a native pH about 4. He definitely needed calcium to raise the pH. You don't have that problem. Excess calcium will limit plant uptake of Manganese, Magnesium, and Phosphorus.

Thanks for the spreadsheat. That will be fun to play around with.
mrbong

You're welcome!

I didnt read all the posts just wanted to give my say Medi-one from green planet is the best stuff ive ever used and im pretty sure its 100% organic plus its got an omri approval

I don't know whether Medi-one is good or bad, but I can tell you that OMRI is nearly meaningless. They charge a high fee and test very little -- taking the manufacturer's word. They are currently (2011) under intense investigation by the USDA.

 

[mrbong73]

A grower without a scale is a curious thing!

Yeah I guess my 20 yr old digi isn't up to the task.

So I weighed and converted my ingredients and ran them through the spreadsheet.
My NPK is 1-2.3-2.1 with Ca at 7.9% and Mg:Ca at 1:4.5 Sulfur at 4.9%

Total lbs= 13lbs in 120 gallons (12-14 cuft) of base mix.



I ran the subcool supersoil mix
N-P-K 1-1.53-.02
Ca .88%
S .42%
Mg:Ca 1:1.19

Total lbs= 16.5lbs in 12-14 cuft

 

[Hermitian]

Here's a summary of ideas which I hope answers a number of questions.

Soil.

1. You need something with water retention properties. If you have slightly alkaline water (e.g., western U.S.) then choose ground-up Sphagnum Peat Moss. If you have an acidic water supply then use ground-up Coir (but buy it in brick form). If your water is neutral (e.g., RO water) then us the Sphagnum Peat. If you don't know your water pH then get an inexpensive meter ($15) like this one: Soil pH Meter
2. You need fine-grained cured compost. If you are making it yourself, then I recommend 6 months of curing. If you are getting it from a greenery facility in the U.S., then just ask for the cured compost - by law it is cooked and tested for composition.
3. You need inorganic, non-soluble minerals. Horticultural sand is best. This comes from a rock quarry where cobblestones are crushed to make different size gravels. The horticultural sand is everything that passes through the 3/16-inch screen -- including the crusher dust. If you are living in a remote area you will also find it occurring naturally at the base of rock cliffs and in small creeks. Don't use construction sand pr playground sand, most of it has been treated with pesticide and/or herbicide.
4. You need porous rocks about 1/4 inch diameter. Perlite works, vermiculite does not. Small or partially crushed pumice (not lava tuff) is great too -- especially for long term planter beds or containerized fruit trees.
5. Inoculate with worm castings. 1 cup per 15 gallons is plenty.
6. Inoculate with Mycorrhizae. A tablespoon per 15 gallons is plenty.
7. When you mix, the peat and compost should be about 3/4 of the volume. It will probably be a heavier soil than you expect. It is designed to hold water while still providing aeration to the roots.
8. Water less often and check the moisture level from the bottom of your pots. Do not let the pots sit in trays of water -- instead, let the pots drain after each watering. Then, if you must place them on trays to catch occasional dripping, go for it.

Granular Nutrient Application.

1. Apply granular nutrients to the surface of the soil. Do not mix or dig them in. This will cause more harm than good.
2. Cover the granular nutrients with at least 1 inch of mulch. For potted plants or young plants in the ground, use 1/2 inch diameter cured mulch or wood chip (it must be cured). For larger plants in the ground, use 1 inch diameter.
3. If you already have mulch around the plants (hurray!) then mix the granular in with mulch and then add another 1/2 inch or so of mulch on top.
4. Granular application is typically once per month. It breaks down slowly so more frequent application is a waste of labor.
5. Make sure that your irrigation water will saturate the mulch that has fertilizer in or under it.

Natural "Designer-Chemical Free" Nutrient Mixes.

1. "NO-STEP" FORMULAS
   • These are intended to be used from seedling to harvest. They produce a better-than-average crop and simplify your life.
   • The N-P-K values are proportional to 1 : 1: 1.5. For example, 4-4-6.
   • Some manufacturers produce these pre-made; i.e., all-in-one box. Check the box to make sure the ingredients meet your idea of "organic".
   • If you want to design your own, then feel free to use the calculator I supplied in a previous post:
   • I have supplied one recipe at the bottom of this post.
2. "TWO-STEP" FORMULAS
   • Many of you have been told to grow in a two-stage process. It is not always necessary, but it can provide you with better control over growth schedules (e.g., time to harvest) and with the right proportions of nutrients it can provide an over-all better quality crop.
   • The "grow" stage -- from seedling to just before flowering: an N-P-K proportional to 1 : 1 : 1 is highly recommended. For example, 3-3-3.
   • The "bloom" stage -- from flowering to harvest: an N-P-K proportional to something like 1 : 2 : 2 or as high as 1 : 5 : 5 (max) is recommended. Danger: more is not better.
   • Some manufacturers produce these pre-made; i.e., all-in-one box. Check the box to make sure the ingredients meet your idea of "organic".
   • If you want to design your own, then feel free to use the calculator I supplied in a previous post:
   • I have supplied two recipes at the bottom of this post.

Examples.

I have chosen ingredients based on simplicity and availability. If you feel like adding more to this is better, then use the calculator and instructions () to insure you have an appropriate balance of ingredients. For example, if you decide to spray your buds with potassium silicate in addition to one of these formulas, you just might find your plants going under from potassium toxicity.

Here's the ingredients I have chosen. There is nothing special about them; i.e., none of them are a magic bullet. Read Carefully. If what you have is not a reasonably close match in percentages or density, then you need to use the calculator.

• Soybean Meal. NPK about 5-2-2. Density about 1/3 pound per cup.
• Bone Meal. NPK about 1-16-0 and 14% Calcium. Density about 0.6 to 2/3 pounds per cup.
• Potassium Citrate (Liquid). NPK about 0-25-0. Density about 3/4 pounds per cup.
• Cal-Mag in Wood Sugar (Liquid). NPK 0-0-0 with 4% Calcium and 4% Magnesium.
• Refined Seaweed Extract (Liquid). Pick one from a trusted manufacturer.
• Humic Acid (Liquid). Should be about 2/3 humics and 1/3 fulvics.

Application Rates.

• Seeding or young plant in 2-gallon pot: 1/8 cup per month.
• Larger plant (4 foot) in 15-gallon pot: 1/2 cup per month.

No Step Formula.

• 7.5 cups Soybean Meal
• 1 cup Bone Meal
• 0.9 cup (sorry) Potassium Citrate (Liquid)
• 1.5 cup Cal-Mag in Wood Sugar (Liquid)
• 1 Tablespoon Seaweed Extract (Liquid)
• 1 teaspoon Humic Acid (Liquid)

Grow Formula.

• 10.5 cups Soybean Meal
• 1.25 cup Bone Meal
• 3/4 cup Potassium Citrate (Liquid)
• 1.5 cup Cal-Mag in Wood Sugar (Liquid)
• 1 Tablespoon Seaweed Extract (Liquid)
• 1 teaspoon Humic Acid (Liquid)

Bloom Formula.

• 3 cups Soybean Meal
• 2.5 cup Bone Meal
• 1.5 cup Potassium Citrate (Liquid)
• 4 cup Cal-Mag in Wood Sugar (Liquid)
• 1 Tablespoon Seaweed Extract (Liquid)
• 1 teaspoon Humic Acid (Liquid)

I'm hoping there's no typos -- I've checked but there is always a possibility! Please let me know via PM if you spot an error.

 

[Hermitian]

Yeah I guess my 20 yr old digi isn't up to the task.

:)

Hey I'm replying to your PM here because I haven't been on the site long enough to send PM's.

... My question is would it be beneficial to cut the current mix with more peat to give some of the Ca. something to work on?

Enter the Peat into the spreadsheet along with everything else. Use an approximation for the weight of the peat, and for the nutrition value enter 0.5-0.5-0.5. Notice the effect it has the concentrations of everything?

I have decided to give an indoor deep soil bed a go and if things work out I will be using this batch for quite a while. My plan is to use different mulching techniques along with top dress feeding if I feel the mix is not providing enough nutrients.
I am doing this in a 150gal smart pot under 1k HPS.
Any thoughts?
Thanks again,

Well, by experimenting with different mulching techniques you'll be re-inventing the wheel. If you have the time, it might be fun. The "nutrients on the surface underneath the mulch" method has always been the best practice for granulars in university field trials.

 

[critical]

what is the best ratio i can use to mix my pure bat guano with water for feeding my girls?and how often? or is top layering a better idea? if so how much per pot and how often? thankyou