What are the best organic nutrients that I can make or buy?

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Hermitian

Hermitian

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Hermitian
Your comments are laughable at best. And having a summer job at a grow store is hardly the same as the nursery industry. ...

:sign0065:

I own a nursery. I am the largest online distributor of a leading fertilizer company -- many of the stores you shop at are my customers. I am a leading horticultural consultant for both certified organic and non-certified growers. I have bachelors and masters degrees in science. My career spans decades.

If you think you know better, that's cool. Just keep the insults to yourself.
 
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mrbong73

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Ok well if that's true you could have formulated your points in a manner that didn't come off as somewhat less educated.

Could you explain perhaps the Haber process of making Nitrogen fertilizer?
Or maybe how chem ferts are responsible for dead zones in the oceans and algae clogged waterways from too much fertilizer runoff?
I'm sure they make the plants flourish that are being treated but they are now dependant on the ferts. and will not flourish without them.

If I owe an apology so be it but so far I'm not buyin.
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

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I think Dexter said it best here:

... Lemme say one more thing; over application of chemical ferts is the one of the leading causes of bad soil.

I agree: more is not better. Dosage is key. This also applies to certified organic fertilizers. Over application of manure is a leading cause of aquatic damage in several waterways of the mid-west.

There are 4 forms of Nitrogen used in fertilizers: Ammonical, Nitrate, Organo-Protein, and Urea. The Haber process is a covalent chemical process to produce ammonia from atmospheric nitrogen. It can then be used to produce nitrogen in the Ammonical, Nitrate, or Urea forms. Here in the western U.S. we most commonly use the Urea form since the other forms are relatively abundant in nature (salts in desert regions of western U.S. and south America). The Urea Nitrogen derived from the Haber process is identical to that found in animal urine -- which in some natural environments is a major source of Nitrogen for plants. In particular, think about the animal density in subtropical environments.

The concept that plants become dependent on chemical fertilizers is false. If I use 5 lbs of Alfalfa Meal to supply nitrogen to one set of plants and I also use 1/4 cup of a water-soluble with 20% Nitrogen and trace seaweed extract on a second set of plants, the nitrogen utilized by the soil organisms and the plants will be the same.

Soil Microbes flourish with "complete" water soluble fertilizers. Again, dosage is key. If I take a petri dish with a worm colony and dump 1/4 cup of 20-6-16 powder in there, the colony and everything else is dead. If I take the colony and feed it the nutrient content extracted from 5 lbs of Alfalfa Meal, it is also dead. However, if I take an appropriate dose of water-soluble 20-6-16 dissolved in water and feed it to the worms, they will flourish.

This concept of feeding the soil to feed the plants is commonly misunderstood. Yes, a healthy soil is good. A soil that is too healthy is poor for plants because the soil organisms are consuming a huge portion of the nutrients you are adding, and also aggressively attacking the root system of the plant. This is often seen in certified organic operations where the farmer has created an incredibly rich soil structure but failed to provide the plants with trace minerals to both control the population and mitigate disease. A lack of copper and zinc in trace amounts are typical in these situations.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I'd like to know what you mean when you're saying that unprocessed urine is a chemical fertilizer. Again, it's confusing to the layperson when terminology and terms are switched around, so are you coming from a literal standpoint (chemistry, i.e. everything is, technically, a chemical) or what?

Folks really like to bag on semantics, but it's important, so we understand where we're coming from.
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

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I'd like to know what you mean when you're saying that unprocessed urine is a chemical fertilizer. Again, it's confusing to the layperson when terminology and terms are switched around, so are you coming from a literal standpoint (chemistry, i.e. everything is, technically, a chemical) or what?

Folks really like to bag on semantics, but it's important, so we understand where we're coming from.

Plants only uptake the ionic chemical components of unprocessed urine. If you run it through a mass spectrometer, you'll find no difference in terms of nutrient components to a popular liquid organic fertilizer sold for turf grass rated 19-4-2.

The terminology "switched around" has been done by organic marketeers and not in horticultural sciences. The most serious terminology problem is that nearly every "organic" gardener has their own definition of "organic". It gets much easier if we can move the conversation to terms like:
  • naturally occurring
  • plant sources
  • mineral sources
  • animal sources
  • USDA certified organic
In additional to common agricultural crops, the nutrient requirements and capacities of Cannabis have been studied in great detail in both academia and industry. These can be met with naturally occurring sources to meet different levels of crop performance all the way from (a) meeting nutritional requirements = adequate crop performance, to (b) meeting nutrient capacity = nearly optimal crop performance.

For the latter category, I will caution that it does not mean a long laundry list of ingredients. Instead it means choosing from a narrow list of "natural" sources that provide appropriate quantities of N-P-K, minors, and micros and paying attention to dosage. More is not better. When too much is applied, the plant can suffer from attack from biotics or mineral toxicity.

If you are interested in "natural sources" because you think it is an easier, cheaper way to get better results then I'm sorry but you are mistaken. If you are interested in "natural sources" because you believe that "unnatural chemical sources" will introduce harmful chemicals into your body you are very mistaken -- and also hypocritical because smoking (or using a vaporizer) is one of the most harmful things you can do to your body - eating buds is a far healthier approach.

So if you are still interested in learning about "natural approaches" to achieving either adequate or near-optimal performance I'd be happy to post them.
 
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mrbong73

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It gets much easier if we can move the conversation to terms like:
  • naturally occurring
  • plant sources
  • mineral sources
  • animal sources
  • USDA certified organic
If you are interested in "natural sources" because you think it is an easier, cheaper way to get better results then I'm sorry but you are mistaken. If you are interested in "natural sources" because you believe that "unnatural chemical sources" will introduce harmful chemicals into your body you are very mistaken -- and also hypocritical because smoking (or using a vaporizer) is one of the most harmful things you can do to your body - eating buds is a far healthier approach.

So if you are still interested in learning about "natural approaches" to achieving either adequate or near-optimal performance I'd be happy to post them.

Personally I am interested in providing natural sources to promote natural processes of decay and nutrient cycling via soil microbes. AKA grown naturally.
Plant grows, plant dies, plant provides nutrients for next plant etc.
Plants can thrive at near optimum levels with nothing more than compost as a "fertilizer".

I am interested in hearing more about your views on natural approaches and since the OP asked about organic nutrients that would seem appropriate here.

:passingjoint:
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I'm always open to learn new things. I would absolutely agree that it's necessary to be clear in our language as well as our understanding of it (words as symbols, yes?).
But we also have to remember that we're on a cannabis forum, an open one, and as such must work with lay-speak, as it were. It can take a while to learn what others mean when they say something. That is why I asked for the clarification. I know, for instance, that if I'm speaking to a chemist, s/he is going to call water a chemical, because that's how they see it.

I have a whole list of reasons for why I'm taking the direction I am that have little to do with fallacious reasoning. It is upon the facts and research I've uncovered, as well as my own ideals and morals that I base the reasons why I'm doing things the way I'm doing them.
So, when it comes to my own ideology and viewpoint, you're going to have a difficult time trying to shift me. If it's regarding factual information, I am always all-eyes (ears).

But right now let me focus on why I want to take my 'naturally occurring/least processed' course of action, which also includes a loop closure inasmuch as I am no longer flushing my own urine down the toilet, using potable water that costs me money (electricity) to bring up, filter, heat, and use, not to mention the immorality of using such a precious resource in such a manner.

One reason is cost.
Another has to do with my total impact on the environment.
Yet another has to do with how I choose to treat myself, which is a discussion to be had, and I have had, with my doctor, not a nursery-person.
Another reason has a great deal to do quite literally with my physical abilities. I cannot be married to constant feeding and weeding.
Another is that I can see with mine own eyes, I can see how nature works, completely and entirely sans human inputs!
Another has to do with long and short-term inputs and their total cost to me and the environment, and if I'm so sadly mistaken about those then we would have to add people like Toby Hemenway, Sepp Holzer, and Eliot Coleman to that "sadly mistaken" list, just to name a few of the proponents of sustainable inputs that don't involve highly processed, highly soluble artificial fertilizers that give a quick return, but require the same annual investment. That require the same types of energy inputs to create, that are known to cause a whole host of problems as long as we continue to do things the way we do/are.

Please don't take this as me proposing I'm an expert in anything other than my own opinion(s), based on the facts I've managed to find on my own, as I understand them. But also understand that I spend hours upon hours reading, both on the computer and, my preferred type, hardcopy. I check veracity of sources to the best of my ability, and I have other previous experience and education in what may initially seem to be unrelated fields, but as so often can happen in life, turn out to have many useful corollaries.

Mrbong, my goal is to gain the luxury of living in a place where I can essentially "set it and forget it." I've done it with aquariums (if you want specific references cited you can contact me privately, but I won't discuss on open forums as it's far too easy to figure out exactly who I am), which are relatively an incredibly closed system that require complete and total human intervention. So I know it can be done in my landscape, my surrounding environment. And I believe I can live off of it because my ancestors lived like that for millenia, and lived well (notwithstanding advances in medicine that have served to extend life expectancy, irrespective of qualify of life).

And with that, I believe I may have ranted. Not my intention, it just flows outta my fingers.
:hi
 
Blaze

Blaze

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263
Those of us in the nursery business really don't care what you buy -- we stock it all. But if you want to get better results at great value then take another look at inorganic fertilizers.

Sounds like someone is trying to push products :thinking:

Do you have any experience with organics? My guess would be "no" as most nurseries use Grow More or something similar due to ease and cost. We have done quite a bit of R & D with the chems vs organics in my neck of the woods. Growth rates, sap readings (tissues samples), and yields were all compared across multiple gardens and strains. The chem ferts that were used were usually Grow More or other ag type fertilizers, not BS from the hydro stores. Good chance they were many of the same products you use at your nursery.

Once making good aerated compost tea (ACT) was figured out, there is absolutely no comparing the two. The organics, or a hybrid system using ACT and low does inorganic ferts far out preformed the pure inorganic fertilizers by a considerable amounts, every single time, in every garden, with every strain, every season, without fail.

On average the ACT centered organic and organic hybrid systems showed:

100%-300% increase in nutrient uptake
40%-100% increase in growth
40%-100% increase in yield
50%-80% reduction in inputs and cost

So basically compared to 4 years ago I am now using in my gardens 20% the amount of inputs and getting twice the growth and yield. So that is what, a 1000% increase of efficiency over the inorganic ferts? Not to mention the way were are doing it now is more sustainable, improves the soil rather than degrades it, as inorganic ferts often do, and is more environmentally friendly, all good perks.

At this point I think the chem ferts are about as refined as they can get. They have hit a wall so to speak with the effectiveness. You need the soil biology to take your plants performance to that next level. The benefits of a healthy soil biology simply cannot be replicated with refined inorganic fertilizers, and probably never will be.

Oh and FYI if you read a bit of Eliot Coleman or John Jeavon's works they have been able to achieve similar results with their organic farms. In fact Jeavon's farm, which is just a little North of me, has achieved some amazing results with their biointensive techniques. Their methods, which have been well documented, make it possible to grow food using 99 percent less energy in all forms - human and mechanical, 66 percent to 88 percent less water, and 50 percent to 100 percent less fertilizer compared to commercial agriculture. They also produce two to six times more food in the same space vs modern chemical based farming methods.

So don't knock it till you try it.
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

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... So, when it comes to my own ideology and viewpoint, you're going to have a difficult time trying to shift me. If it's regarding factual information, I am always all-eyes (ears). ...

Cool. My interest is learning the path you are seeking and help you do it better with the kinds of sources that fit your philosophy.

Thank you for the interesting explanation of your approach and beliefs, it really helps a lot.


... Plants can thrive at near optimum levels with nothing more than compost as a "fertilizer". ...

We are using the word "optimal" in different contexts. It is possible for a plant to "thrive at near optimum levels" and yet be nowhere near optimal crop performance -- as measured by harvest. It has been shown theoretically and in practice that optimal harvest yield of herbaceous plants cannot be obtained by compost alone. For example with tomatoes, it is easy to predict what happens in practice: 40 tons per acre using the best compost and practices available and 80 tones per acre using mineral sources. The problem with herbaceous plants is concentration: the amount of nutrients needed to meet plant capacity would bury the plants by at least a foot and can't be broken down in the relatively short lifetime of the organism.

If you want to see efficiency with natural source and closure at its best, I highly recommend studying the methods of the Mennonite farmers in Alberta, CA. No one else comes close to what they do. The community in Homestead is an inspiration. For the true Mennonite farmers, there is not a lazy bone in their body. In that environment, being lazy is to invite death in the winter.


Sounds like someone is trying to push products :thinking:

Absolutely not. Read my introduction.


So don't knock it till you try it.

I'm neither knocking it or someone who doesn't use it. For heaven's sake, I consult for "certified organic" and "naturally grown" farms!
 
Blaze

Blaze

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263
Well when you pop up on a thread about organics and start talking about how we should start buying chem ferts because they get better results for less cost it tends to make me a bit suspicious about your intent.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. I'm always curious what the people in the nursery industry are up to with their growing techniques.
 
Illmind

Illmind

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well said blaze. i used to have all my hydro buddys asking me how i veg so fast and get close to their yields weeks faster. the hydro plants flower quicker but veg speed gave me the edge. i always prefer organics usually but i've had some amazing hydro org. as i said i like to mix it all from veggies to poop to seaweed to dead fish etc. plants love the variety. and add some enzymes bacteria mycos acids and all that to keep the soil thriving. imo taking care of the medium is key too success. when i see slight buildup hygrozyme. i love the smell and look of the medium after hygrozyme attacks just smells super clean. i've been told hygrozyme doesnt harm useful bacterias n stuff but i believe it has to kill some beneficials.
 
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mrbong73

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not BS from the hydro stores.

I picture the "researchers" at AN as a Beavis and Butthead skit:
#1 "haha Let's see what happens when you put THIS in there haha."
#2 "hehe, yeah! put it in there, hehe"
(#1 adds unknown chemical not associated with plant nutrition)
#2 "This will be cool! hehe."
#1 and #2 "WHOA!"

lol. sorry.
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

77
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Ok, so there are quite a few different definitions of "organic" going on here, and a few people who are interested hearing some recommendations.

So I'll begin with Seamaiden, who is pursuing what is commonly called "holistic" growing/farming. (It's just a name to put on a category, so please don't take offense). Using your sources, let's see what proportions of these things are (a) adequate, and (b) approach performance limits.
  • You are using human urine for a nitrogen source - and yes it contains other nutrients. For purposes of calculation, I could assume you have something like a pescatarian diet, or a McDonald's diet, perhaps something in between, or maybe you've done some analysis yourself?
  • What is your main source of potassium -- no amounts needed, just what do you use or prefer?
  • And your phosphorus source?
  • And how about source(s) of minors and micros?
  • If you are putting any of these things in the soil for long term release instead of on a feeding schedule then be sure to mention it. I'm just interested in sources, not delivery method.

Blaze, you have a less-restrictive view of "organic". At one point you expressed that some nutrients fall in a category of "organic" and others in "chemical ferts". I'd like to recommend an approach that you find acceptable. What I need to know is where to draw the line. For example, do you view any of these as "organic"?
  • naturally occurring dolomite lime
  • naturally occurring iron sulfate
  • epsom salts (natural or otherwise)
  • naturally occurring calcium nitrate
  • sul-po-mag (natural or otherwise)
 
dextr0

dextr0

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Hermitian; no offense but we aint here to cater to your needs. You wanna understand how we feel about organics look at this thread and the threads I posted. It will give you all the answers you seek...we seek none.

Still seems like your trying to tell us whats organic and not. Stop yourself. Your a hound barking up the wrong tree.

Last but not least my name is dextro as in Dextrorotation and levorotation...or better yet my favorite dextromethorphan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My organic is a way of living and caring. Noticing that you can and do have an affect on the things around you. I want a positive environment for myself; my kids (there kids and so on); and all animals. Im not perfect, so yes flaws will come and go; but for the most part I try to live by my LIFE mantra.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzNZRB7Un3M[/YOUTUBE]
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

77
6
Hermitian; no offense but we aint here to cater to your needs. You wanna understand how we feel about organics look at this thread and the threads I posted. It will give you all the answers you seek...we seek none.

My understanding is that you are speaking for yourself, and not for others. If Seamaiden and Blaze do not want to obtain a dosage recommendation with ingredients they already have, then I'm sure they'll speak up -- or simply not answer.
 
M

mrbong73

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Here are some of the amendments I work with.
Base is close to equal parts peat, compost, ewc, and pumice with some coco thrown in for good measure.

Fish Meal
Fish Bone Meal
Alfalfa Meal
Soybean Meal
Soft Rock Phosphate
Neem Seed Meal
Crab Shell Meal
Kelp Meal
Oyster Shell Powder
Gypsum
Azomite
K Mag
Glacial Rock Dust
Epsom Salt

Any opinions or recomendations?
 
Hermitian

Hermitian

77
6
Hey Mr. Bong,

I really like your soil mix. It’s very close to what I use although I also add: a cubic yard of worm castings, 4 cubic feet of rock crusher dust, and a cubic foot of mycorrhizae per 40 cubic yards soil.

Here's my suggestions about your "amendments":

Nitrogen sources. You really only need one of these. I don't care for Fish Meal because it contains variable amounts of chlorine. The other two are both good choices. Since they are approximately equal in nutrient content, I would choose the one that costs less per pound in your location. For example, Neem Seed Meal is very cheap here but I believe its the other way around in the mid-west.

Fish Meal ~ 8-4-1
Neem Seed Meal ~ 6-1-1 (also 5-1-2 depending on processing)
Soybean Meal ~ 6-2-2

Phosphate sources. I would just use the Fish Bone Meal. The Oyster Shell Powder adds heaps of Calcium which you don't need. It does provide a nice source of micros but you already have that covered with the Kelp Meal.

Fish Bone Meal ~ 0-16-0 (sometimes with added nitrogen)
Oyster Shell Powder ~ 0-10-0 + Ca 25%

Potash sources. Good choice. Notice that it is also high in Sulfur so watch it on other sources of acid.

K Mag ~ K 22%, Mg 11%, S 22%

Minors. Azomite is a nice source of Iron and Manganese but its the Sodium I can't get along with. I'd skip it because (again) the Kelp Meal is doing a better job. You don't need the Epsom Salt either because you've got the Mg and S covered in the K-Mag. The sulfur in the gypsum isn't helping you either except to balance all the other excess sources of calcium you have. But the Soft Rock Phosphate -- now that is a good choice because the ratio of its Calcium to the Potash in the K-Mag is just about optimal. Unfortunately, this leaves you a bit deficient in Iron. "Organic" and "Certified Organic" iron chelates are available in granular and liquid forms, and if you happen upon some Iron Phosphate that would work too and it also happens to kill slugs and snails.

Azomite ~ 0-0-5
Epsom Salt ~ Mg 10%, S 13%
Gypsum ~ Ca 29%, S 23%
Soft Rock Phosphate ~ 0-3-0 + Ca 20%
By the way, nearly all "Epsom Salt" sold in the U.S. and Europe is "manufactured" and not mined. Even if it says "naturally occurring", they are simply referring to the fact that it does occur naturally but this does not mean they actually mined it. Of course making it is something people do in high school chemistry: add a few salts to some sulfuric acid and capture the residue.

Micros. Kelp meal is a good source of micros. I prefer the liquid Kelp extract from a reputable manufacturer because then I'm sure it has been "balanced" for plants, the chlorine removed, etc. But I'm quibbling. If you are changing out your soil every couple of years the Kelp Meal is just fine. It's not so great over a long period for row crops or fruit orchards. Now I'm concerned about levels of copper and zinc that are too low. If the Kelp Meal you have lists the Cu and Zn at or above 0.01% then not to worry.

Kelp Meal

Plant Hormones. Yes, so your Kelp Meal plays a double role, and in fact it's most important role is as a plant hormone. The main work done by Alfalfa meal is also as a plant hormone, with a bit of nitrogen to drive it into the plant. I use them both as they are complementary.

Kelp Meal
Alfalfa Meal

Other. The Crab Shell is giving you more Calcium that you don't need. The Glacial Rock dust takes 3 years before it starts providing much of anything in terms of nutrients. The people who sell it are unscrupulous at best. However, a small proportion of rock dust is important in any soil mix as part of the physical fabric (see beginning of this post). Further, you can get it for free. Just go to a local quarry and inquire about getting a bucket of crusher dust.

Crab Shell Meal ~ varies by source
Glacial Rock Dust

Putting it all together. The follow recipes are by weight, not volume.
GROWTH

4 x Neem Seed Meal
1 x Bone Meal
1 x K-Mag
1.75 x Soft Rock Phosphate
This will yield a mix with an approximate N-P-K of 3-3-3 with Ca-Mg at about 3%, 1%. Use the amount of K-Mag as your guide. 1 level Tablespoon of K-Mag per 3-4 weeks for a 1 foot high-plant in a 2-gallon container is plenty. Do not mix into soil, but instead distribute on top where the irrigation water will hit it and cover with an inch or two of mulch (coarse) not compost (fine).

Then, about 1-2 weeks before transition change to
PRODUCTION (proportioned by weight, not volume)

4 x Neem Seed Meal
2 x Bone Meal
2 x K-Mag
3 x Soft Rock Phosphate
This formula is about 2-4-4 with Ca-Mg at 5.5%, 2%. The plants are now larger. Again, let the weight of K-Mag be your guide. Use 2 Tablespoons K-Mag every 3-4 weeks and if the plants exceed 5 feet then use 4 Tablespoons K-Mag every 3-4 weeks.

So, that's my 2-cents. How does this compare with what you are doing?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Ok, so there are quite a few different definitions of "organic" going on here, and a few people who are interested hearing some recommendations.

So I'll begin with Seamaiden, who is pursuing what is commonly called "holistic" growing/farming. (It's just a name to put on a category, so please don't take offense). Using your sources, let's see what proportions of these things are (a) adequate, and (b) approach performance limits.
  • You are using human urine for a nitrogen source - and yes it contains other nutrients. For purposes of calculation, I could assume you have something like a pescatarian diet, or a McDonald's diet, perhaps something in between, or maybe you've done some analysis yourself?
  • What is your main source of potassium -- no amounts needed, just what do you use or prefer?
  • And your phosphorus source?
  • And how about source(s) of minors and micros?
  • If you are putting any of these things in the soil for long term release instead of on a feeding schedule then be sure to mention it. I'm just interested in sources, not delivery method.
Uh oh... does that mean I'm going to have to use math? I'm only half-kidding about that, I'm terrible with numbers (but great with money/finances).

My diet is mostly vegetarian, but since locating a local source of organically grown, grass-fed beef, we're eating a lot more than we have in the past year or two. I've had some digestion issues of late and I find that eating mostly veggie is the best way to control it. I eat mostly beans and rice, greens (veg) with beef and chicken, occasional fish (due to overfishing/aquaculture issues and my own aquatic background). No Rx meds, no hormones (HRT), but I do smoke it to my head. So we can assume that my urine has high levels of cannabinoids. I rarely, very rarely, eat fast food. I LOVE my nuts, grains and cereals, am a huge fan of organ meats but don't eat nearly as much as I would like because I'm sure my arteries would clog right up, and then what good would I be to anyone?

Back to the soil! Low fertility, low calcium Sierra Nevada foothills red, rocky clay. Amending the soil begins with compost, and I can't find the brochure that gives me all the information about it, but it's a certified (CCOF, IIRC) organic compost. With that is incorporated gypsum, in the hopes that it will someday help to break up the clay because it's so easy for it to become hardpan. Wait, maybe this would read more easily as a list...

Gypsum
Oyster shell flour
Glacial rock dust (ruh roh!)
Greensand
Soft rock phosphate
Azomite (very small quantities)
Alfalfa in several forms (pellets, A&M mix, and straight up old hay)
Compost
High N bat guano (moving away from that, there are other sources of N, etc)

Amounts are not so easily quantified, I did it exactly like how I cook--by feel. I know that this area is woefully low in Ca, perhaps Mg, even though both can be found in our well water in high, high amounts in carbonate forms (CaCO3 & MgCO3, respectively). I figure since the clay is so red there must be a good amount of iron present. All of this is as a pre-planting amendment system, I'm trying to not have to go back and add and add and add throughout the season. I'm also going to begin using green manures/living mulches, already have lots of purple vetch occurring naturally (maybe it's time to harness that, but damn it takes everything over) and am planning on growing more plants that pull atmospheric N, such as mimosa tree, already growing lots of beans (I love beans and rice) and plan to rotate those crops.

I also have kelp meal, neem seed meal, some other meals that I now can't remember... but the point was that I use those much more judiciously because, frankly, it can get expensive when you're doing this by the square yard and not by the pot. So those things are added to the planting holes.

Oh yeah! A big one, especially in the planters that sit on top of the sand filter (part of our septic system, the thing is easily as big as a swimming pool) for me is stopping blossom end rot on the squashes, tomatoes, peppers and eggplants. This year I seriously amended with prilled dolomite lime, but as they're setting fruit I'm still finding it. I've run out of prilled lime and decided to use oyster shell flour... just because it seems to feel right. I have no idea how well it will work in the long or short term, though. But those particular planters always have this same problem.

I'm trying to marry the practices and concepts of permaculture with a market garden for income. I'm also trying to close our loop inasmuch as I can control it, i.e. septic waste. We're on a well and engineered septic system, so we live with our own shit so to speak. The less I tax that system the better. That leaves more water in the well for us and the plants if/when needed, and less effluent going down the hill into the leach field.

You see, I have a few goals in taking more total responsibility for my actions. I want to be able to feed my family, maybe even my neighborhood. I want to reduce my total impact on the natural environment (yeah, right, I know, I'm already here). I want to enjoy the natural environs around me. I want to save money so I can spend it on things I enjoy. The list can go on and on and on, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

So, local purchases, in order to reduce petroleum inputs. Non-processed ferts and amendments, again to reduce petroleum and total non-renewable energy inputs. Whatever I put in to the earth, the growing, hopefully will mostly remain there and add to total fertility. And, a desire to get back to basics, to be able to be more (completely?) self-reliant.

This actually has quite a lot to do with my politics, so I think it's probably best to leave it at that.
 
M

mrbong73

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28
Hey Mr. Bong,

I really like your soil mix. Here's my suggestions about your "amendments":
Thank you taking the time to put this together. Very informative.
I guess I call them amendments because I mix them into the soil instead of top dress like a fertilizer. ( mostly) I grow indoors in smart pots. fyi

Neem Seed Meal is very cheap here.
Do you have a local (so.cal) source for Neem Meal? I can only find small boxes at a farm supply. Neem Resource . com is suppose to have top notch neem products.
Notice that it is also high in Sulfur so watch it on other sources of acid.
The sulfur in the gypsum isn't helping you either except to balance all the other excess sources of calcium you have.
Ok so I have a ton of calcium. Will/can this cause an imbalance with other nutrients that I should be concerned with?
Could you elaborate on the sulfur and acids a little?

Unfortunately, this leaves you a bit deficient in Iron.
Now I'm concerned about levels of copper and zinc that are too low. If the Kelp Meal you have lists the Cu and Zn at or above 0.01% then not to worry.
I do use a humic acid product that contains trace minerals. Cu at .31% and Zn at .7% also Fe at 1.2%
Other. The Crab Shell is giving you more Calcium that you don't need. The Glacial Rock dust takes 3 years before it starts providing much of anything in terms of nutrients. The people who sell it are unscrupulous at best. However, a small proportion of rock dust is important in any soil mix as part of the physical fabric (see beginning of this post).
The Crab Shell is used for it's chitin content as well as the Ca.
Rock dust people being unscrupulous seems a little harsh compared to the the industry that drives our hobby. lol
I do think rock dust adds value to the mix even if its longer term.

Putting it all together. The follow recipes are by weight, not volume.
GROWTH

4 x Neem Seed Meal
1 x Bone Meal
1 x K-Mag
1.75 x Soft Rock Phosphate

Then, about 1-2 weeks before transition change to
PRODUCTION (proportioned by weight, not volume)

4 x Neem Seed Meal
2 x Bone Meal
2 x K-Mag
3 x Soft Rock Phosphate
This formula is about 2-4-4 with Ca-Mg at 5.5%, 2%.
I will mix up some of these ratios and keep on hand to test. Thanks!
So, that's my 2-cents. How does this compare with what you are doing?
Thanks again for putting this together. I guess a guy can learn a lot at the grow store summer job. :blush

This is how I put together my current mix that I will be using for an indoor soil bed experiment.
Following items added to my current inventory of around 60 or so gallons of soil mix.
Fish Meal 3 cups
Fish Bone Meal 3 cups
Alfalfa Meal 4 cups
Soybean Meal 2 cups
Soft Rock Phosphate 3 cups
Neem Seed Meal 2 cups
Crab Shell Meal 2 cups
Kelp Meal 2 cups
Oyster Shell Powder 2 cups
Oyster Shell 2 cups
Gypsum 2 cups
Dolomite lime 2 cups
Azomite 3 cups
K Mag 2 cups
Glacial Rock Dust 10 cups
Epsom Salt 1 cup

Added in around 4-5 cuft of coco, peat, ewc, homemade compost and pumice.
Wetted down with homemade yarrow extract and some AEM solution.

Should have around 100-120 gallons of mix.​
 
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damn that iguana juice is expensive. You would think they had to raise real iguanas and squeeze it out of them or soemthing!

igauna juice is the stinkingest shit you will ever use,mine smells like old piss and some daihrea mixed up.It smells in my house for at least one week after use.Im not allowed to use it indoors anymore due to the stinch.Pure blend pro is the only way to go when you want organic,its ph and ppm balanced and worked consistantly better than anything Ive used and Ive ran them all at one time or another
 
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