Which way to go.....upgrade time is near.

[CelticEBE]

Ok peeps....I'm coming up to a point where I will be upgrading soon. While cost is always an issue, I'm more concerned about relliablity and efficiency. Here's what my set up will be and some of the cooling options I am considering.

I will have three rooms. Veg will have 2k in HID and Three 400 watt t-5's, room is 12x10x8. Flower rooms will be on a flip at 8k each and are 20x12x8. I will be growing trees in a vert set up. I'm in an area where ambient temps in the summer top out at 85. It gets nice and chilly during the winter.....but never below freezing really. Yes....the hood has GREAT weather.

Speaking with an HVAC guy I could do a 4 ton outside and have an airhandler on a damper cooling both of my flower rooms. That would leave me to install a wall banger on my veg room.

Doing some research....I could also do a 5 ton chiller outside and have it going to 2 separate 4 ton watercooled air handlers, and a 1 ton wall mount. Not sure if I need a reservoir for this application. I have an email into Hydro Innovations.

I've done a little research on the fresca sols. I like them..but I don't like glass around the bulbs. Going barebulb was a game changer for me. Though I do get that you can have the lights a lot closer to the plants. I have no idea what kind of chiller I would need and what kind of extra cooling as well as they reduce 93% of the heat.

Anway, I would like to hear from you guys out there on the Farm. Thanks in advance for any replies and feel free to ask any questions.

 

[mastacheeser]

Personally I'd stick with what works (the 4 ton)
Maybe rock a smaller chiller for jus the veg room to see if ya like it

 

[ttystikk]

Mastacheeser has it exactly wrong. He would have you run totally different setups on a whim, and that's a recipe for headaches.

You didn't mention the average ambient relative humidity- or better yet- dewpoint in your local area, and this would determine whether a chiller or ac makes the most sense for you. If you live in a dry climate, chillers are the clear choice as they do not dry the air out further. A damp climate needs the drying effects of ac.

One two ton ChillKing cools two rooms on a flip schedule, each with 8kW of lights- but in this case, sealed and vented through 8" ducting. In addition, it cools all rdwc systems and controls humidity. These units can be carried by two people, making them portable enough to take to a shop should they need service.

If you plan to run bare bulbs, get two of them- and you may be able to cool your veg and as many as 12 bare bulbs in each of your two rooms. One more important consideration is cost of operation, and here is where chillers really shine; a chiller cools a working fluid, which then cools the target. The chiller only runs long enough to maintain the working fluid temperature at the setpoint. Thus, you get full-time cooling capability while your chiller runs only long enough to cover the load. That sound of silence every cycle after it shuts off? That's the sound of it saving you money!

 

[CelticEBE]

Mastacheeser has it exactly wrong. He would have you run totally different setups on a whim, and that's a recipe for headaches.

You didn't mention the average ambient relative humidity- or better yet- dewpoint in your local area, and this would determine whether a chiller or ac makes the most sense for you. If you live in a dry climate, chillers are the clear choice as they do not dry the air out further. A damp climate needs the drying effects of ac.

One two ton ChillKing cools two rooms on a flip schedule, each with 8kW of lights- but in this case, sealed and vented through 8" ducting. In addition, it cools all rdwc systems and controls humidity. These units can be carried by two people, making them portable enough to take to a shop should they need service.

If you plan to run bare bulbs, get two of them- and you may be able to cool your veg and as many as 12 bare bulbs in each of your two rooms. One more important consideration is cost of operation, and here is where chillers really shine; a chiller cools a working fluid, which then cools the target. The chiller only runs long enough to maintain the working fluid temperature at the setpoint. Thus, you get full-time cooling capability while your chiller runs only long enough to cover the load. That sound of silence every cycle after it shuts off? That's the sound of it saving you money!

Well looking online it says our average humidity levels are 80%. I'm not really in a position where I can get two compressors. Which is why I am favoring one big one. Also looking at the hydro innovations water cooled air handlers they look like they act as dehumidifiers as well.


This is the one I was thinking of putting in the veg room. It doesnt dehumdify....but I like my veg humid as I can get it.


So you think a 2 ton compressor and water cooled air handler would cool 8k worth of lights? I was taught that each light puts out about 4000 btu's and adding a 1000 to it gave some much needed break time for your compressor. So 8k would be 40,000 btu or 3.3 tonsI've seen you say with water though its a different ball game. I just don't understand. BTU's are BTU's right?

 

[We Solidarity]

I just got finished with a pretty huge analysis of water-cooled systems, and found that compared to traditional HVAC, the startup cost is nearly double. So you need to ask yourself if your cooling season is long enough to justify the extra cost, because in Colorado the return investment, in terms of your energy savings, can take 10-15 years. And that's just with regular commercial units nothing geared to our industry which costs twice as much. In SoCal, Texas, Florida, etc. where you're always in need of cooling and dehumidification it's def a different story than here, but most of the time in Colorado the cooling and dehumidification is already free.

 

[fishwhistle]

I dont think mastacheeser is wrong at all,traditional A/C is still king,not saying water cooling/chillers dont work but if they are that much better why isnt everyone using them?Their are some badass state of the art growers on this site who can afford anything and they are still running A/C,if you took a poll 99+% would be running air cooling of some type in comparison to water cooling,are they all wrong?I dont have a swimming pool for a reservoir and if i put drums of water out for a res they would be 120 degrees in summer and frozen in winter,not to mention possible water leaks and all the ice boxes and fans to blow air through them you need.
My vote would be for some type of high seer heat pump system(mini for me) where you can set a temp and forget it,whether the grow needs heating or cooling it keeps it at temp.

 

[CelticEBE]

I just got finished with a pretty huge analysis of water-cooled systems, and found that compared to traditional HVAC, the startup cost is nearly double. So you need to ask yourself if your cooling season is long enough to justify the extra cost, because in Colorado the return investment, in terms of your energy savings, can take 10-15 years. And that's just with regular commercial units nothing geared to our industry which costs twice as much. In SoCal, Texas, Florida, etc. where you're always in need of cooling and dehumidification it's def a different story than here, but most of the time in Colorado the cooling and dehumidification is already free.

I'm in California and though winter times it gets chilly, I'm running a sealed room and will always need cooling and dehuey.

 

[sealed138]

I run two 8k rooms on a flip.
I'm in cali, and Use a 4 ton A/c with my air handler on dampers with a brain controlling them.
Im running bare bulbs in a horizontal setup on tables.
coco top drip DTW. works great, even in August when its 110.

 

[ttystikk]

Well looking online it says our average humidity levels are 80%. I'm not really in a position where I can get two compressors. Which is why I am favoring one big one. Also looking at the hydro innovations water cooled air handlers they look like they act as dehumidifiers as well.


This is the one I was thinking of putting in the veg room. It doesnt dehumdify....but I like my veg humid as I can get it.


So you think a 2 ton compressor and water cooled air handler would cool 8k worth of lights? I was taught that each light puts out about 4000 btu's and adding a 1000 to it gave some much needed break time for your compressor. So 8k would be 40,000 btu or 3.3 tonsI've seen you say with water though its a different ball game. I just don't understand. BTU's are BTU's right?

I know a 2 ton chiller cools 8 sealed and vented lights because I am standing here watching it do so. At the same time, it's controlling humidity AND chilling all 5 rdwc systems across 5 separate spaces. Show me a minisplit that can do all that, I dare ya!

The water cooled air handler you mention still needs cold water, which has to come from a chiller or some source of cold water; in its case, the colder, the better!

BTus are only the same once you have normalized output from chillers and ac by using the 'effective output' conversions. The further you get away from the face of an ac unit, the less effective it is. This just isn't true for chilling.

 

[ttystikk]

I dont think mastacheeser is wrong at all,traditional A/C is still king,not saying water cooling/chillers dont work but if they are that much better why isnt everyone using them?Their are some badass state of the art growers on this site who can afford anything and they are still running A/C,if you took a poll 99+% would be running air cooling of some type in comparison to water cooling,are they all wrong?I dont have a swimming pool for a reservoir and if i put drums of water out for a res they would be 120 degrees in summer and frozen in winter,not to mention possible water leaks and all the ice boxes and fans to blow air through them you need.
My vote would be for some type of high seer heat pump system(mini for me) where you can set a temp and forget it,whether the grow needs heating or cooling it keeps it at temp.

If 99% of everyone else was running off a cliff, would you join them because they're in the majority?

Your assumption of affordability of chillers and who can afford them is also irrelevant, or worse. I have not had extra money to throw at my garden, EVER- and that's exactly why I researched the choices so carefully. It was a good move, as I've been saving 50% on my cooling costs ever since- not to mention warming my house for several winters now. The heat savings alone was well over $1000 a season. That pays for a lot of gear!

Now, before you start throwing around scenarios of water cooling all Willy Nilly, you might bone up on how it actually works. I don't suggest people use outside reservoirs unless they really know what they're doing- I suggest chillers. Since you're conflating the two, it tells me your conceptual grasp of the differences between chilling and ac could use a little brushing up.

 

[CelticEBE]

I know a 2 ton chiller cools 8 sealed and vented lights because I am standing here watching it do so. At the same time, it's controlling humidity AND chilling all 5 rdwc systems across 5 separate spaces. Show me a minisplit that can do all that, I dare ya!

The water cooled air handler you mention still needs cold water, which has to come from a chiller or some source of cold water; in its case, the colder, the better!

BTus are only the same once you have normalized output from chillers and ac by using the 'effective output' conversions. The further you get away from the face of an ac unit, the less effective it is. This just isn't true for chilling.

If I go this route I will have a reservoir and a 5 ton Banks compressor. The reservoir will be inside, and insulated as can be. I've done some work with watercooled stuff in the past. I run watercooled co3 gens drain to waste right now...as I don't have to pay for water where I am.

In talking to the guys at watercooledgardens I would be looking at about 11 to 12k for the setup I am looking at. Like I said, cost isn't as much of an issue as is reliability and efficiency.

 

[ttystikk]

If I go this route I will have a reservoir and a 5 ton Banks compressor. The reservoir will be inside, and insulated as can be. I've done some work with watercooled stuff in the past. I run watercooled co3 gens drain to waste right now...as I don't have to pay for water where I am.

In talking to the guys at watercooledgardens I would be looking at about 11 to 12k for the setup I am looking at. Like I said, cost isn't as much of an issue as is reliability and efficiency.

Tell them you've been talking to me. Must be nice not to have to pay for water, lol. My chilling system has been very reliable, I've replaced one pump in over two years- and I think it was my fault for allowing the reservoir to empty.

 

[fishwhistle]

If 99% of everyone else was running off a cliff, would you join them because they're in the majority?

Your assumption of affordability of chillers and who can afford them is also irrelevant, or worse. I have not had extra money to throw at my garden, EVER- and that's exactly why I researched the choices so carefully. It was a good move, as I've been saving 50% on my cooling costs ever since- not to mention warming my house for several winters now. The heat savings alone was well over $1000 a season. That pays for a lot of gear!

Now, before you start throwing around scenarios of water cooling all Willy Nilly, you might bone up on how it actually works. I don't suggest people use outside reservoirs unless they really know what they're doing- I suggest chillers. Since you're conflating the two, it tells me your conceptual grasp of the differences between chilling and ac could use a little brushing up.

No need to talk down to me because im in the 99% tty,lol.Im waiting on hi seer mini heat pumps for my rebuild now,i use them because i can set a temp on a thermostat and forget it,it will heat or cool.The minis have a small footprint especially inside where space is a premium,i dont care about outside size but i prefer to not have a huge piece of equipment inside with a drum of water/glycol,pump and manifold and spiderweb of waterlines running everywhere,i wont even address leaks.

 

[ttystikk]

No need to talk down to me because im in the 99% tty,lol.Im waiting on hi seer mini heat pumps for my rebuild now,i use them because i can set a temp on a thermostat and forget it,it will heat or cool.The minis have a small footprint especially inside where space is a premium,i dont care about outside size but i prefer to not have a huge piece of equipment inside with a drum of water/glycol,pump and manifold and spiderweb of waterlines running everywhere,i wont even address leaks.

I responded to your patronizing tone- and the incorrect assumptions about water chilling that are absolutely piled up in your post... Everything you said proved that you don't know diddly about water chilling- certainly nowhere near enough to talk shit about, for damn sure!- and now you think that doubling down on your ignorance is support for your points?

Look, I have a lot of respect for what you bring to the table, when you know what you're talking about. This time you're way out in left field- and I called you on it. Either man up and crack some books on the subject, or at least admit you don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know shit about breeding, for instance. When is the last time you saw me giving advice about it? NEVER. That's the hint I'm dropping, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[sealed138]

Everything has its place. In the end I think its all about personal preference, experience, budget, and comfort level.
Sometimes things work so great for us that we get tunnel vision and cant see why someone would want to do something any other way. Also without an hvac buddy I could see how water cooling could be appealing.

 

[ttystikk]

Everything has its place. In the end I think its all about personal preference, experience, budget, and comfort level.
Sometimes things work so great for us that we get tunnel vision and cant see why someone would want to do something any other way. Also without an hvac buddy I could see how water cooling could be appealing.

Personal preference is fine when discussing subjective opinions- like which strain you like better, but when discussing equipment specifications, operating parameters, cost of operation... no. You use the numbers to tell you which is better.

I've installed it all, and the one downside of chilling is the up front cost and time putting in water lines. Once that not terribly involved job is done, you have no more disadvantages compared to ac- minisplit or otherwise.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm giving inadequate advice to those running sealed rooms in humid climates; after all, if your room is sealed, what difference does the outside humidity make? I'm now thinking that the only place ac *might* be an better choice is for Open, or non-sealed rooms in very humid climates.

 

[CelticEBE]

Right now...the most attractive thing about water cooling is the fact that with a 5ton unit placed outside....I can cool THREE rooms. I live in the warehouse that I am set up in and the wall units are not only loud....but they heat up my living spaces. While I do get pretty decent airflow through my place....and during the winter it was nice.....I want them GONE. If I go HVAC I will have to have one wall unit ac for the veg. Now that may not be THAT bad. I'm still weighing all the pro's and con's on this.

tty- noticed the Devo lyrics....did you see them on tour with Blondie last year?

 

[sealed138]

Personal preference is fine when discussing subjective opinions- like which strain you like better, but when discussing equipment specifications, operating parameters, cost of operation... no. You use the numbers to tell you which is better.

I've installed it all, and the one downside of chilling is the up front cost and time putting in water lines. Once that not terribly involved job is done, you have no more disadvantages compared to ac- minisplit or otherwise.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm giving inadequate advice to those running sealed rooms in humid climates; after all, if your room is sealed, what difference does the outside humidity make? I'm now thinking that the only place ac *might* be an better choice is for Open, or non-sealed rooms in very humid climates.

I believe you bring a lot of useful knowledge to the discussion, but at the end of the day the subject is alot more complex than you're making it out to be. beyond the technical specs(which there could be more of) there are the other things like time, maintenance, leaks, clogs, worries about some part of the system failing. there are alot of parts to a total water cooled setup. Also there is ease of use factor with hvac, its been proven reliable by years of use in residential applications, so with my setup I dont even have to think twice about my environment. Its completely dialed and takes care of itself(besides a filter change once a month.

Anyways bro I'm glad its working for ya and appreciate the opposing view.

 

[ttystikk]

Right now...the most attractive thing about water cooling is the fact that with a 5ton unit placed outside....I can cool THREE rooms. I live in the warehouse that I am set up in and the wall units are not only loud....but they heat up my living spaces. While I do get pretty decent airflow through my place....and during the winter it was nice.....I want them GONE. If I go HVAC I will have to have one wall unit ac for the veg. Now that may not be THAT bad. I'm still weighing all the pro's and con's on this.

tty- noticed the Devo lyrics....did you see them on tour with Blondie last year?

Yes, and you can still move a chiller inside in the winter.

No, I missed it! Damn, those are both great bands, too!

 

[ttystikk]

I believe you bring a lot of useful knowledge to the discussion, but at the end of the day the subject is alot more complex than you're making it out to be. beyond the technical specs(which there could be more of) there are the other things like time, maintenance, leaks, clogs, worries about some part of the system failing. there are alot of parts to a total water cooled setup. Also there is ease of use factor with hvac, its been proven reliable by years of use in residential applications, so with my setup I dont even have to think twice about my environment. Its completely dialed and takes care of itself(besides a filter change once a month.

Anyways bro I'm glad its working for ya and appreciate the opposing view.

The chiller has been totally reliable, and I would not trade my system for ac of any type. When it comes time to reconfigure a room or setup, you'll need to disconnect hoses- and then you'll need an hvac tech to make a home visit. In my setup, that's unnecessary. Changes I can do myself- I can handle water!- and if the chiller quits, me and a buddy put it in a van or pickup and take it to the shop. No house calls or explanations needed.