Which way to go.....upgrade time is near.

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Traditional HVAC, Watercooled Air handlers....or Watercooled lights


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sealed138

sealed138

First Starfighter
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That is an attractive benefit, but im lucky enough to have a friend who does hvac/refrigeration for a living.
Hes great at what he does and that makes things easy for me. no explanations, he helped me design my setup.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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That is an attractive benefit, but im lucky enough to have a friend who does hvac/refrigeration for a living.
Hes great at what he does and that makes things easy for me. no explanations, he helped me design my setup.

I have a roomie like that, too. I've been schooling HIM on water chilling and its applications for indoor gardening.
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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Mastacheeser has it exactly wrong,I have it exactly wrong,We solidarity has it wrong,Sealed138 has it wrongAll the rest of those who choose A/C instead of water cooling have it wrong,I get it.I apologize for questioning your cooling authority tty,peace,im out.
 
Capulator

Capulator

likes to smell trees.
Supporter
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Right now...the most attractive thing about water cooling is the fact that with a 5ton unit placed outside....I can cool THREE rooms. I live in the warehouse that I am set up in and the wall units are not only loud....but they heat up my living spaces. While I do get pretty decent airflow through my place....and during the winter it was nice.....I want them GONE. If I go HVAC I will have to have one wall unit ac for the veg. Now that may not be THAT bad. I'm still weighing all the pro's and con's on this.

tty- noticed the Devo lyrics....did you see them on tour with Blondie last year?

If you are concerned about noise look at the Mitsubishi mr. slims.
 
CelticEBE

CelticEBE

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If you are concerned about noise look at the Mitsubishi mr. slims.
Not so much concerned about the noise factor. I just can't have multiple compressor units outside. That would draw a bit more attention than just one big one.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Mastacheeser has it exactly wrong,I have it exactly wrong,We solidarity has it wrong,Sealed138 has it wrongAll the rest of those who choose A/C instead of water cooling have it wrong,I get it.I apologize for questioning your cooling authority tty,peace,im out.

Let me explain it like this, then. Chilling quite simply operates more efficiently. Period. Why else is it the cooling system of choice for large buildings and commercial space? None of this is new in any way to HVAC professionals. Ask them yourself.

I called you out on your misconceptions about water chilling simply because it's clear that your understanding of it is incorrect. I don't want those who come after and read this thread to think that what you've said above is correct- because it isn't.

The reason why ac is still being sold in larger numbers boils down to this fact; industry inertia. Only relatively recently have chillers become widely available in appropriate sizes for our uses, so the vast majority of choices are still the old tech. Since that's what is still being produced, that's what is being marketed... if this is starting to sound circular, you're getting a handle on the inertia I'm talking about.

Again, chilling is a relatively new cooling option. It's understandable to look twice at it. I did- and I looked a third time, too. Yes, you will be in good company if you buy ac, but that is a different goal entirely than using the best tech for the task.

For those with unlimited funds, I've heard of using a combination of geothermal pipes and heat pumps to heat and cool large scale grows at drastic savings over traditional ac. Water chilling gains most of the benefits of heat pumps with much less complexity or cost.

I wouldn't be as passionate about this if I didn't think it was as important as I do; my chiller pulls 8.5A at 240v. It runs about 1/2 time on cool days to 2/3 on warm days, cooling 8kW plus veg, plus multiple rdwc systems. If it isn't as efficient as I say, then how do you do this with ac?
 
mastacheeser

mastacheeser

2,126
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Let me explain it like this, then. Chilling quite simply operates more efficiently. Period. Why else is it the cooling system of choice for large buildings and commercial space? None of this is new in any way to HVAC professionals. Ask them yourself.

I called you out on your misconceptions about water chilling simply because it's clear that your understanding of it is incorrect. I don't want those who come after and read this thread to think that what you've said above is correct- because it isn't.

The reason why ac is still being sold in larger numbers boils down to this fact; industry inertia. Only relatively recently have chillers become widely available in appropriate sizes for our uses, so the vast majority of choices are still the old tech. Since that's what is still being produced, that's what is being marketed... if this is starting to sound circular, you're getting a handle on the inertia I'm talking about.

Again, chilling is a relatively new cooling option. It's understandable to look twice at it. I did- and I looked a third time, too. Yes, you will be in good company if you buy ac, but that is a different goal entirely than using the best tech for the task.

For those with unlimited funds, I've heard of using a combination of geothermal pipes and heat pumps to heat and cool large scale grows at drastic savings over traditional ac. Water chilling gains most of the benefits of heat pumps with much less complexity or cost.

I wouldn't be as passionate about this if I didn't think it was as important as I do; my chiller pulls 8.5A at 240v. It runs about 1/2 time on cool days to 2/3 on warm days, cooling 8kW plus veg, plus multiple rdwc systems. If it isn't as efficient as I say, then how do you do this with ac?
If he asked which was the most efficient I'd be 100% on board with what your saying.
That's a lot of extra cost in a industry where things can change very fast
 
CelticEBE

CelticEBE

1,831
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If he asked which was the most efficient I'd be 100% on board with what your saying.
That's a lot of extra cost in a industry where things can change very fast

Not to be a dick.....but I did ask what was more efficient. Look back to post #1
 
mastacheeser

mastacheeser

2,126
263
Not to be dick.....but I did ask what was more efficient. Look back to post #1
Haha funny shit. Like first thing too
Def hard to argue against the effecency of using a chiller and large rez but that's really where the benefits of that system stop
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

1,724
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If I had never used chillers before I would be voting AC all the way because that's what most people use and will always use. AC works OK but you need a lot more AC and spend a lot more money on running them, about 40 to 60%. Three years ago I need to buy a chiller for my RDWC system so I bought a 1/2 hp one. Than I added a few more RDWC systems and bought a few more chillers all the while cooling my rooms with AC. The AC was having trouble keeping up with the heat and I was going to upgrade the AC than a light came on! I kept seeing water coolers for lights and said WTF so I looked at the 1 HP chiller I had for a Room with eight 1000w lights in it and this is what I did. I build my own room chiller from junk and used my chiller barrel. So I have a dedicated 45 gal Blue Plastic barrel that is chilled by my 1 HP chiller that is outside in a dog house I built just for my chiller and ballast and fans. Chillers produce heat and work best when outside year round. I move mine in in the fall and it heats by house at no extra cost. So my chiller cool 45 gal and keeps it at 64 degrees all the time. The barrel has three pumps in it that pump chiller water to the room cooling rad and two 50' ss chiller coils that sit in the RDWC res. This set up cools my room to 80 and cools my 2 res to 66 24/7. I have not had any failures and I don't use AC anymore. As for price I don't know where some people are bying there stuff but you can buy a 1 hp chiller for $1,299.00



So chillers are more efficient and cost less to operate. Next post is more info.

PS I got the aluminum rad new at the wreckers for 20$ and the blower for free from a furnace place, the junk pile. 500gph pump cost me 100$.
IMGP9105
IMGP9108
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

1,724
263
Part 1


Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?
The primary reason for the superior efficiency of a chiller over an air conditioner despite their use of the same internal components is that the thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air. What that means is a chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity.
With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator can’t draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.
Outdoor chillers used in conjunction with indoor water-cooled air handlers can supply traditional style air conditioning - the difference is that there is water passed between them instead of refrigerant. This type of set-up can be installed by anyone as no refrigeration license would need to be installed. Water lines can run hundreds of feet to a water-cooled evaporator. A/C ducting cannot run for significant lengths as the airflow decreases dramatically with distance. Water is currently used in most large public buildings for heating and cooling, both due to its superior efficiency and because it affords the ability to use one cooling unit for a very large area, whereas several air conditioning units would be required due to the distance constraints involved with ducting.
Water Chillers Explained
What is a chiller and why would I want one?

Let’s start with chiller basics - what is a water chiller and why would a person want one?
A water chiller does just what its name implies - it cools water. Chillers are used in indoor gardening for a wide range of applications including nutrient cooling and water-cooled equipment such as CO2 generators, dehumidifiers, air conditioning and even lighting. Basically anything that creates heat can be cooled by water one way or another.
Given the efficiency of a chiller versus the efficiency of other common cooling methods, and the added control over garden temperatures (and therefore happier plants) that water-cooling affords, using water to cool makes more financial sense in the long run. It does, however, cost a little more up front and it is a little more difficult to set up than traditional cooling methods. I compare it to installing radiant barrier on attic roofs or buying Energy Star appliances for your home - in most cases, well worth the investment.

How does a chiller work?

The cooling function of a chiller is very similar to that of an air conditioner. The energy savings comes in the form of the superior efficiency of the heat exchange of water versus air. Most chillers use electricity to power a thermostat-controlled compressor that forces refrigerant inside through a cycle. The refrigerant starts as a hot compressed gas being pumped to the condenser from the compressor.
In the condenser the compressed gas begins to condense to liquid as the heat is removed by a fan. Most of the heat being absorbed by the refrigerant is removed at this point and blown out of the chillers. The cooled liquid leaves the condenser and enters either an expansion valve or capillaries to control the amount of refrigerant entering the evaporator. As the refrigerant enters the evaporator it starts to absorb heat and boils off, becoming a vapor. Water is pumped through or across the evaporator and the heat is absorbed from the water by the refrigerant. The refrigerant is again sucked in to the compressor, compressed into a hot gas and sent to the condenser to start the cycle over. Some chillers also come with an option to run the cycle backwards. This results in the water being warmed instead of chilled and cool air instead of warm blowing out the back of the chiller.
A properly sized larger chiller will use less power than a smaller chiller because it runs less often and requires less effort from the compressor.
Why is a chiller more efficient than an air conditioner?

The primary reason for the superior efficiency of a chiller over an air conditioner despite their use of the same internal components is that the thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air. What that means is a chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity.
With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator can’t draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.
Outdoor chillers used in conjunction with indoor water-cooled air handlers can supply traditional style air conditioning - the difference is that there is water passed between them instead of refrigerant. This type of set-up can be installed by anyone as no refrigeration license would need to be installed. Water lines can run hundreds of feet to a water-cooled evaporator. A/C ducting cannot run for significant lengths as the airflow decreases dramatically with distance. Water is currently used in most large public buildings for heating and cooling, both due to its superior efficiency and because it affords the ability to use one cooling unit for a very large area, whereas several air conditioning units would be required due to the distance constraints involved with ducting.
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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Part 2

Types of chillers

All chillers are not the same! Just like air conditioners, there are several different chiller designs and types available and your needs should be carefully considered before a purchase is made. If your application calls for a heavy duty chiller, you will not get the results you need from a chiller intended only for nutrient cooling. Further, actual cooling output varies from brand to brand even on chillers with the same size compressor, so do your research before you buy. In our market, there are a lot to choose from, but we’ve broken them down into three main categories:
Aquarium/Reservoir chillers
These chillers are very affordable, extremely common and are made to hold a body of water at a specific temperature against the ambient temperatures only. They are not made to carry a load. These chillers are only to be used for light duty cooling and can only be used indoors, so they are designed to run quietly as well. They cannot handle a direct or significant heat load. I compare them to refrigerators, as long as the door is closed and there is no heat being introduced, the refrigerator does exactly what you require of it, but you can’t put a constant heat source inside and expect it to stay cold. This goes for the aquarium/reservoir chillers as well. Mostly this is a result of smaller condensers and fans, necessary to suppress noise and maintain a small cabinet size. When used under the light loading for which they’re intended, these chillers are affordable and readily available with several different brands to choose from.

Equipment chillers
These are usually more expensive than the variety mentioned above but are more rugged and are made to directly counteract a heat source. These chillers can handle constant loads and most can be placed outside if desired. These chillers are usually more energy efficient and will last longer under harsh conditions.

Some of these are better than others, and they can range from 80 to 100 per cent load capacity. This means that with a 12,000 BTU compressor for example, some will give you 12,000 BTU of cooling and some will only get you 9600 BTU. The higher output chillers are usually a bit more expensive, but since they are more energy efficient, they will run less often, cost less to operate and last longer than the chillers with lower output, as you get more cooling out of the same power consumption.
Commercial chillers
These chillers are the most expensive available, but are also the highest quality and longest lasting chillers you can buy. Some units come with built-in pumps and reservoirs so you simply attach your plumbing to the water outlets, add water, turn them on and set your water temperature. The commercial size chillers can only be placed outdoors (they are too large and remove too much heat to be placed indoors) and most can be roof-mounted if needed.

How to properly size a chiller

Properly sizing your chiller is vital! Heating and cooling are both measured in BTU and if the BTU loading is higher than the BTU output of the chiller, the chiller will run constantly and will never or rarely get your body of water to your desired temperature. You will need to closely estimate how much heat is being produced by the equipment that you’re trying to cool to know how much cooling you need. You must also consider ambient temperatures, how well the room is insulated, if there is any venting to the outside and the cubic footage of the area that you’re cooling.
In general, 1000 watt bulbs produce 3500 BTU and 1000 watt digital ballasts produce 2500 BTU of heat. (Every light and ballast is different so these are generalizations). So if you were looking to cool a room with 4000 watts and with the ballasts in the garden, you would need a chiller with at least 24,000 BTU to counteract the heat generated by the lights and ballasts alone. You’d need to add BTUs to the chiller if you wanted to add water-cooled air conditioning or if you wanted to use any other water-cooled equipment such as CO2 generators. If I can offer one piece of advice that you’ll thank me for later, it would be to always size your chiller 20 per cent larger than you think you need. A properly sized larger chiller will use less power than a smaller chiller because it runs less often and requires less effort from the compressor. A larger chiller will last longer and offers you the ability to expand your set-up later. I’ve found that many people add lights to their garden after they switch to water-cooling because they have freed up some electricity and have more control over their garden temperatures.
Where should I put it?

For a chiller to operate at maximum efficiency, it must have a constant supply of fresh air. It is a mechanical heat exchanger and cannot exchange heat efficiently if it is in a closed room or in a hot attic. To take maximum advantage of its energy efficiency, the chiller should be placed outdoors if possible, even if it is hot outdoors. If you leave it in the house, even in a different room, your home air conditioner is cooling the heat from the back of the chiller, which is really just the heat from your garden, so it isn’t providing nearly as much energy-savings as it does if you put it outside.
In short, water cooling has been used for decades, mainly in commercial and industrial applications. It’s already been proven in these other applications that water chillers can be extremely energy friendly additions to the indoor garden! The energy savings that can be afforded by using water to cool your equipment and environment often allows gardeners to add more lights to their space because they have more control over their temperatures and smaller electric bills. This results in larger yields with little or no increase in power consumption, and happier plants in a more consistent environment. When the correct chiller, for the correct application, properly sized, is used in the indoor garden, the benefits of more control and less energy use will nearly always offset the upfront expense.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Haha funny shit. Like first thing too
Def hard to argue against the effecency of using a chiller and large rez but that's really where the benefits of that system stop

Oh? The benefits DON'T include being able to cool a large multi-room operation with just one chiller? They DON'T include cooling rdwc? They DON'T include being able to reconfigure your cooling plant yourself, without calling an hvac tech? They DON'T include being able to take your chiller in for service instead of a more expensive house call? They DONT include being able to heat your house all winter? They DON'T Include precise control of humidity?

For telling us there aren't any advantages to chilling over ac after the cost savings, let's just say I DON'T think you're correct.

How much does a good 4 Ton, 4 site high SEER minisplit go for these days, anyway? AND the chiller you'll still need to cool your rdwc... AND the separate dehuey units... and I'll just mention here the heating of my home- it saved me way over$1000.00 in heating costs for each of two winters so far.

My reservoir that's sooooo inconvenient? A 55 gallon drum sitting next to the water heater.
 
woodsmaneh

woodsmaneh

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Haha funny shit. Like first thing too
Def hard to argue against the effecency of using a chiller and large rez but that's really where the benefits of that system stop

I hope by now we have given you some more insight on ways to cool with chillers, ^^^^^ or at least educated some of you about the benefits of cooling with chillers.

WE don't hate AC we just know a better way to chilll.

Security is a big bonus with chillers, if it breaks just pick it up and take it in to be fixed. You don't need a window to stick it in.


Tumblr m0znnf4maT1qhq1pjo1 500
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Along with minisplit systems, chillers have the advantage that any condensation dripping from the unit will be free of smell.
 
CelticEBE

CelticEBE

1,831
263
Ok....easy there ttys! Let's keep it friendly in here. We all have our own opinions on things. I can see where masta doesn't like all the plumbing involved. While I am not a plumber.....I have learned enough over the last 4 years to where I feel comfortable setting something like this up.

I think I am sold on the benefits of chilling. The biggest point for me is one unit will cool three rooms.

I think instead of bringing my 5ton chiller inside during the winter....I will hook up a radiator with a fan coming from the return line before it goes back to the chiller, sort of like what woodsmaneh has done. This will not only heat up my living space, but it should remove heat from the water before it goes back to the chiller....making things even more efficient. I would DIY the rooms like woods has done.....but I like the fact that the air handlers dehumidify as well.
 

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