eyecandi said:

sooo .... taking a couple cups and mixing it into the soil is too rigid of an application protocol for you? maybe it's the respirator? (should be using this with ANY application of any pesticide/fungicide anyways). personally it was a helluva lot easier to apply then anything else. there is nothing sensitive about this stuff, it lives/breeds in the exact environment we provide. and with Liquid Py costing $100-$175/quart (Azamax/Azatrol @ $80/pint) .... the cost is negligable in my opinion. so I guess I'm a little confused by your statement.

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Yah. I put on a respirator. Apply it. Done. Not too complicated or risky. I first lost my mothers to RA's because I didn't even know what they were. I threw everything out and they came back after a good clean down.

Now I have this...


Plants look happy to me. No telltale phantom damage...



Thanks Treehugger. I appreciate your input. I don't think anyone is trying to mislead here. We are searching for answers. That is why Altimood and Eyecandi have run independent tests and logged the results as they progress. It is working on RA's along with mites and fungus gnats as well for me. I looked for RA's for an hour the other night and I don't have them in my MET treated plants. Met 52 is all I ran in them. We will see how they look in a few weeks. :)

What camera are you using EC?? You take the sweet pics.

eyecandi said:

so I guess I'm a little confused by your statement.

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I'm not.
His shop don't carry it yet, that's all. As soon as it does, he'll be extolling the benefits, so he can sell it to you.

DoobyScoo said:

I'm not.
His shop don't carry it yet, that's all. As soon as it does, he'll be extolling the benefits, so he can sell it to you.

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ahhhh .... well, i think you all know me well enough from posts that I'll tell it how it is, if it works or not and no BS. I have no financial interests in any companies, the only financial interest I have is saving my high dollar crop and hopefully helping others find beneficial products that save them $$, time and headaches as well.


OS - it's just a standar cheapo 12mp digital with 4x optical zoom. I use my 30x jewelers loop placed right in front of the lens. another one of those 'save everyone a bunch of $$" items ..... who needs a $500-$1500 super camera ;)

I also hear that digi camcorders with 70x optical zooms work great (I don't have one to test this out though)

eyecandi said:

ahhhh .... well, i think you all know me well enough from posts that I'll tell it how it is, if it works or not and no BS. I have no financial interests in any companies, the only financial interest I have is saving my high dollar crop and hopefully helping others find beneficial products that save them $$, time and headaches as well.
)

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Ya man. Thats why I gave you the stuff. I have read a bunch of your posts and I appreciate your scientific method. I knew I could trust you to be impartial and really give it a chance. I didn't know you from Adam before this started. Now I am happy to consider you a friend. When I gave you the Met I told you to post "whatever happens". I didn't make a deal with you to make Met "look" good. If you can treat a whole warehouse for a dollar a plant I don't see how that is cost prohibitive. I understand people being skeptical but I don't understand good data being ignored from three different commercial growers using the Met on phylloxera in three different commercial grows that all had RA's !? This is new and most people have not had a chance to try it yet. I am sure the opinions will be coming in as the Met will be reaching a bunch of other growers in the next week or so. There is a gentleman in town that will be distributing it and the first batch is on the way. 22LBs will treat 880 plants. Ya $1.10 per plant in a 5 gallon bucket. WAAAAY cheaper than botaniguard and 100% more effective. I had root aphids in Botaniguard and Liquid P flipping me the bird and doing swan dives into my roots. I killed them with triazicide and I hit them with IMID. They come back in a few weeks everytime. I am going to harvest my crop treated with MET. The plants are not getting munched on and are growing happy. I have had RA's for the past eleven months at least so I know when something is working or not with them. I got RA's, I did a ton of research, Altimood and I hired a specialist and found Met 52 thanks to him. I went through all the trouble to get it, give free samples to people and setup public trial tests. We found this stuff because I needed it and nothing else was working. So far I am very pleased with it and I would recommend it to people with or without an RA problem as standard maintenance based on what we have all seen. If those little bastards come back into the treated plants then this thread will be the first to know. If my plants finish happy and Eyecandi and Altimood get through their runs without issues then I would say it is very effective indeed.

Aw duh! The jeweler's loop. I forgot about that. Sweet idea there buddy.

I would like to point out that I know I will never have a 100% kill in my grow. Root aphids fly. For now, I have 100% CONTROL over the situation and I'm seeing good results thus far. I never in a million years expected to annihilate Ra's. But I want to CONTROL the infestation such that my plants will lead a healthy, productive life cycle with good yields and quality results. Thus far I have healthy, and I'm good with that. If things change, it will be posted. Met 52 isn't for every grower. I'm getting a HUGE sense of relief from the use of this product thus far and will continue tests and trials and will share any and all information I obtain because if anyone has had a taste of what I have been through with these disgusting little beasts of burden, in any way shape or form, that person needs a hug and counseling. FOR REAL DAWG! Now I can focus on bomb strains, smoke, and techniques and all that fun stuff that anyone does this for.

altimood said:

I would like to point out that I know I will never have a 100% kill in my grow. Root aphids fly.

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Have you tried a p-bomb? The grow I treated for them was treated with a p-bomb at the same time as the spectracide/azamax/imid and they've been gone for good. It's about a year later and no resurface. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but since other people have complained of not being able to get rid of them with those products, it might have helped. Certainly can't hurt.

Ya. Altimood and I both P-bomb. (You do still eh dude?). All it does is kill the fliers. The rest of the little things just go dormant and keep on the next day when the pyrethrum is gone. Bombs couldn't stop RA's if you did it every day for 60 days straight IMO. Maybe in a small setup but I Did it in conjunction with both poisons mentioned and seriously didn't do it for me. I did triazicide first, then Imid five days later. P bombs with each application. RA's three or four weeks later, again. New soil and new pots. New plants, Hydro or not. Same results. I am glad you killed 'em and forgot 'em with that regimen but it didn't work for me or many others. My grow was not sealed up all the way and that probably helped the problem along. These things hide in the floorboards like bedbugs. You can scrub down and start over and they are coming out of the woodwork a month later...



P Bombs don't get these guys...
That was me two months ago. Little buggers.

the other issue is re-infection, potentially via exported (external from CO) soil. not sure if it's ever been proven (and I certainly can't prove it), but 3x in the last year I though I eliminated them, only to have new infestations pop up. all seeming to coinside with new soil batches purchased within a day of a rainstorm that had that wonderful decomposting wet smell (not kidding, I grew up on a farm and that is the good smell). although, I believe someone else was telling me this might be a native or nativized species ..... in which case re-infection can come from anywhere at anytime (just like our other friends, the spidermite .... oh how I loath you little mighty mites .....).

eyecandi said:

the other issue is re-infection, potentially via exported (external from CO) soil. not sure if it's ever been proven (and I certainly can't prove it), but 3x in the last year I though I eliminated them, only to have new infestations pop up. all seeming to coinside with new soil batches purchased within a day of a rainstorm that had that wonderful decomposting wet smell (not kidding, I grew up on a farm and that is the good smell). although, I believe someone else was telling me this might be a native or nativized species ..... in which case re-infection can come from anywhere at anytime (just like our other friends, the spidermite .... oh how I loath you little mighty mites .....).

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I am seeing them outside now so they are native or at least established here. I found them on vines and in evergreen roots in the past few weeks. I have found every life cycle all the way up to flyers all on the same plant outside.

I had the same deal happen with the soil. Rank smelling ripe soil batches and Root aphid explosion right after that. Companies are shipping them into Colorado dormant and ready to munch your crop. Same with the fungus gnats. They often populate fox farm and Roots organic soils for sure. Add water and - instant mosquito farm in your grow. Dunks do wonder on those guys and the Met seems to eat the larvae in the soil. I am seeing a major reduction in my flying buggers lately.

Remember, if you will, what I posted of my own experience last year in lil miss lone's thread: Outdoors, pure perlite hempies. Maybe 50 yards away was another outdoor soil (organic, food web) grow that suffered only caterpillar damage in the dark purple buds. Then, they subsequently got into my indoor coco grow and that's when things turned really ugly.

Onespark said:

Ya. Altimood and I both P-bomb. (You do still eh dude?). All it does is kill the fliers. The rest of the little things just go dormant and keep on the next day when the pyrethrum is gone. Bombs couldn't stop RA's if you did it every day for 60 days straight IMO. Maybe in a small setup but I Did it in conjunction with both poisons mentioned and seriously didn't do it for me. I did triazicide first, then Imid five days later. P bombs with each application. RA's three or four weeks later, again. New soil and new pots. New plants, Hydro or not. Same results. I am glad you killed 'em and forgot 'em with that regimen but it didn't work for me or many others. My grow was not sealed up all the way and that probably helped the problem along. These things hide in the floorboards like bedbugs. You can scrub down and start over and they are coming out of the woodwork a month later...

P Bombs don't get these guys...
That was me two months ago. Little buggers.

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Dang, you definitely have some persistent ones. I agree a p-bomb alone would do next to nothing. They triazicide and imid was followed by a month's worth of weekly azamax waterings.

All that being said, I am in socal and I think it's entirely possible that different regions will have different species who are probably immune to different tactics.

I'm definitely thinking that Sea's plan is great outdoors. These bastards must have a natural predator or they'd own every plant out there already. Wouldn't it be nice to know what that was. Indoors I definitely think reinfestation from soil or other materials is likely.

I think we're all used to thinking of spider mites as the great piggybackers, able to find a way in on your shoe, your bag, whatever. What if for instance the little white crab stage is great just for that kind of thing, hitching a ride. Even without that, these bastards are really efficient and evolved insects. Post apocalyptic worlds: Cockroaches, spider mites and root aphids.

I wonder about them being native in the colder regions and at elevation(CO). I ve been saying they're coming in on cuttings from other climate zones or in pre-made potting mixes.
I got mine from a cutting that came from a prominent club in the bay area. I have met one person locally who has them also. He claims to have clean stock from seed. Nothing for several runs, introduced FFOF, wham Root Aphids.
When I first realized what was going on I researched everything I could. 60 or more hours on the net. That's how I ended up here, it was Lil Miss' thread that lured me in.
Here's my theory that has been developed from this site and many others. I think these things have came from another continent. Why? Well, I have been growing herb for around 25 years with a few 6 month long (travel, births of my kids) sabbaticals in between. In those trials I have never heard of or seen one of these bugs. I m talking I had read at the age of 14, Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany" and was glued to "Ask Ed" over the years. You get the point. There is nothing written in any of those "bibles" about RA's , or them being a cannabis pest. I'm sure someone will pipe up with some info. Please do.
Here's a potential scenario. A prominent wine grower gets (smuggles)some killer vines from, let say France. Right. These guys are freaks just like the weed dorks hording genetics releasing cuts to a select few etc. Those vines had the RA's. Those vines are in lets say, Sonoma CA. This could be the beginning of the mess.
It gets messier. The RA's get in to a nearby cannabis garden. No one has a clue what is happening to their plants. Then add the surge of cannabis gardens due to the med states. The renowned clone only varieties get sent far and wide, potentially carrying the pest.
It may be if they are native, the sheer volume of indoor gardens create the optimum environment that has allowed them to establish their presence. Or the many warehoused garden supplies (coastal CA and OR in orgin) used by growers helping spread them.
So. If they are native how come many of us have never heard of these things? I was at a grow shop one day with an old grower associate looking at new products. It had "controls Root Aphids" on the label. The discussion lead to neither of us had heard of this bug. Now, I'm here spouting this.

FWIW

Good Luck, Grow Hard

green punk said:

I m talking I had read at the age of 14, Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany"

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Thank you Tattered Cover Bookstore.
Who knew a stroll through a bunch of books could be so wonderful.
A great book that I hide to hide outside growing up.

I'd never dealt with, seen or heard of them until this past year. 20 years of off/on battles with mites, rarely a mold/mildew issue and one virus ..... these little SOBs popped up out of nowhere and have been a bitch for sure. GP, you could very well be right about it being an invasive hitchhiker. But I'm guessing it's been around for a little while to be so established interesting though that Roots is made in Oregon .... FF in Arcata,CA .... both relatively close and similar climates.

maybe that is part B of the fix .... finding a local soil mix that I like and eliminate the potential.

eyecandi:

I suggest you make your own soil. If you have a descent garden center or grow shop should have the necessary ingredients to make a bomber soil.
The amendments may cost a bit, many are only available in 50# sacks. You may be able to get a friend to chip in on some too.
With all the available bene inoculates your a step ahead of the old game we've been playing. You'll find you can produce a soil that will out perform any of these (fast food) mass produced blends.
Grow your soil just like your plants. Use compost teas. Study Dr. Elaine Ingham. Give it time, eventually you'll be able to predict the yellowing and beginning of what I like to call the living cure.
Any way.

Good Luck, Grow Hard

GP, based on my experiences last year I'm not so sure that a complete web can be built up in indoor growing scenarios, and I also believe that it is the TOTAL soil food web that saved me. I haven't purchased bagged soil in years, but have used that perlite and coco and those are the scenarios where the RAs expressed, and express they did. They also vector diseases, another story, like mofo's, but that's not my point. My point has to do with the entire soil food web and how that can't be created indoors in pots.

There is no way I got root aphids via pure perlite, I just don't believe it. For one thing, two of the bags used were two or three years old. For another, it makes no sense that they'd even be able to establish themselves to the point where they could be brought in via bagged perlite (a mined product that undergoes heating as part of the processing, IIRC). That's why I believe they're already present in the environment, and that we humans have simply created a scenario where they're able to gain in numbers to sufficiently impact all growing scenarios.

Rather like how our seas are becoming jellyfish seas now that we've killed off apex predators. Can you dig where I'm coming from?

Seamaiden said:

There is no way I got root aphids via pure perlite, I just don't believe it. For one thing, two of the bags used were two or three years old. For another, it makes no sense that they'd even be able to establish themselves to the point where they could be brought in via bagged perlite (a mined product that undergoes heating as part of the processing, IIRC). That's why I believe they're already present in the environment, and that we humans have simply created a scenario where they're able to gain in numbers to sufficiently impact all growing scenarios.

Rather like how our seas are becoming jellyfish seas now that we've killed off apex predators. Can you dig where I'm coming from?

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I agree. These have been a battle for over 100 years

http://www.wineeducation.com/phyl.html

Quote from another paper I read here

Louis Pasteur also was recruited to study the diseases of the silkworm, although not until around 1865. Pasteur was able to isolate several different microorganisms from silkworms each of which caused diseases. These included bacteria and protozoa and he also described a disease that we now know to be caused by a small RNA virus, which of course he could not identify. Certainly one would suspect that the research Pasteur conducted on insect diseases aided in his efforts to understand vertebrate diseases.

He also suggested using the protozoan against the grape phylloxera and recommended searching for a fungus that could infect these insects and which, once obtained, should be sprayed in infested vineyards.

The first scientific field test of microbial control was conducted by a Russian, Krassilstschik, who used the fungus Metarhizium anisopliae (Metchnikoff) against the sugar beet curculio, Cleonus punctiventris Germar.

- 50-80% mortality in test plots.

- by 1891 a commercially produced product was available in France, another fungus, Beauveria sp.

- in the 1930's a bacterium, Bacillus thuringiensis, was tested and it became commercially available shortly thereafter.

Each category will be described in more detail:

(1). def'n and description.
(2). some examples of these organisms.
(3). what do you need to know to use successfully.
(4). some examples of introductions, case histories.

The Grape Phylloxera

- in 1863 grape phylloxera,Phylloxera vitifoliae, an insect native to North America, was discovered in Europe, both in England and in France.



Origin in Europe?

- possibly transported to England on ornamental Virginia creeper or possibly on infested American grapestocks which had been imported since1629.
- 1840's, American vines had been imported to France in an effort to combat powdery mildew--may have been the source of phylloxera.
- once the phylloxera was established and devastating native vines, the American vines continued to flourish - unfortunately the American grapes made poor wine -but perhaps pointed to a solution.
- 1873, Riley (Missouri state entomologist) arranged for the shipment of a predatory mite, Tyroglyphus phylloxera, to France - became established - minimal effect.
- on U.S. vines phylloxera has a complex life cycle (has 19 different forms); root and leaf feeding forms; can produce galls both above and below the ground; sexual and asexual reproduction both occur.
- on European vines the infestation is restricted to the root and only parthenogenesis is observed--population dynamics?
- on the U.S. plants galls and other deformities slow growth - increase in root diameter one response of resistant plants - insects tend to stay on the same plant for considerable period of time.
- on European plants the infestation kills the root; phylloxera abandon the deteriorating plant to attack and kill a new plant - increases spread and losses.

- in France a reward of 320,000 francs was offered to anyone who could solve the problem.
solution: initially grafted European vines onto eastern U.S. root stock -- nobody collected the reward.
- Europeans grafted various plants and tested a variety of rootstocks including (AxR #1), not particularily resistant to phylloxera and rejected for widespread use.

comment on current problem in U.S.

- phylloxera not native west of of the Rockies.
- the grape stocks (in California) were not native to U.S. but came from Europe via Mexico with padres of Roman Catholic Church -1524.
- native grapes grew abundantly east of the Rockies and had evolved under constant association with phylloxera.
- when wine industry expanded rapidly in California, a rootstock was selected for its growth characteristics in this location - without due consideration for phylloxera!!!! ---- selected AxR #1.
- eventually phylloxera introduced.
- results - guess.
- requires the replacement of all the rootstock in Napa and Sonoma counties at an estimated cost of 1 billion dollars.

- several excuses have been made including:
i. people planted the wrong rootstocks - dishonest nurseries.
ii. a new phylloxera biotype, "B" now widespread and has adapted to AxR rootstock.

- French had stopped recommending AxR by the end of WWI; also discount biotypes because phylloxera adapts to feed on all rootstocks, a question of plant resistance.

- during this period one of the earliest chemical pesticides was developed; a mixture of lime and sulphur (Bordeaux mixture) had traditionally applied to grape vines that were accessible to the casual passerby with the intent of discouraging theft of grapes--apparently the insecticidal and antifungal properties of this mixture were observed--this led to the development of a mixture of copper sulphate and arsenic (Paris Green - Colorado Potato Beetle).

Lessons learned from grape phylloxera and other pest species.

- by late 1800's many entomologists were aware that a large proportion of the insect pests in any region were imported and the plea went forth in Canada for:

i. strict quarantine measures.
ii. importation for beneficial insects.

This is what they do to cannabis in case anyone is wondering

As I said earlier. The met colonized the net pots in the RDWC as well. It must stay above the water level or it makes a mess. The picture in the previous post was from the neighboring system which the met application was too late for the damage to be overcome.



I really feel Met is saving these plants as they did have root aphids three weeks ago...