Wise and knowledgeable expert advise for DWC at altitude.

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Deadstill

Deadstill

I'm from the government, and I'm here to help.
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Yeah the hemp thing seems sketchy. Lots of pitfalls for sure. 1diesel1 had a tough time too up in Oregon.

Seems like a tough way to make a living.
It's ridiculously overregulated, that's the biggest problem. They want us to report to the Colorado Dept. of Agriculture (who then reports to the USDA) AND the Farm Service Agency, on top of compliance testing and everything else, it's no wonder so many hemp farmers did 1 season and quit. I'm having a hard time justifying doing another season, myself, but I don't give up on anything that easily 🤠

But yeah I wouldn't recommend industrial hemp farming to anyone unless they already know what they're getting into. I know a lot of folks who've invested tens of thousands of dollars into a grow just to lose everything, let alone break even, or even make a profit.

I still believe it's possible for mom and pop type farms to be profitable and successful, but it's certainly not easy, and won't be long before the only hemp producers are the huge multi-million dollar corporations. I think they're going to have to change their regulations a little bit before that happens, though.
As it stands, the US is setting itself up for failure by overregulating and demanding a ridiculously low THC content. Even if they raised it to %1 you still couldn't catch a buzz even if you smoked a whole pound of it in one setting..

But yeah, I have hopes and dreams 🤣
 
smokedareefer

smokedareefer

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THanks for the explaination. That helps alot! 😁...and as previously stated, I would fit right into that last 'unknowingly' group of newbs, I likely just didn't keep at it long enough to have many root issues. After nearly killing the arugula with my city tap water..., I wanted to see if our Chloramine water would be good after 4 days of sitting. Within minutes the letuce was wilting, literally and the roots turned orange. Needless to say, I've been using a catalytic activated carbon filter as well doing my pH down with L-ascorbic acid (vitamine C) for my supersoil JAWS grows ever since.

Anyway, from the experiance and knowlwdge here, it looks like I should be relatively fine doing DWC and any issues won't really be from a lack of oxygen to the roots, as long as I'm aerifying well and constantly. Is there any advantage to an air pump and stone verses a circulating water pump with venturi?
"I would fit right into that last 'unknowingly' group of newbs, I likely just didn't keep at it long enough to have many root issues"

i was thinking the same thing for years but ive been growing "neither" for the last 10 years with good success. So much so that i don't think its a fluke anymore.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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"I would fit right into that last 'unknowingly' group of newbs, I likely just didn't keep at it long enough to have many root issues"

i was thinking the same thing for years but ive been growing "neither" for the last 10 years with good success. So much so that i don't think its a fluke anymore.
I think you missed part of what I said

Neither means you are so damn good at growing that you laugh at things like Pythium, and use neither H2O2 or Great White.

I’ll tell you that root rot is real but it is not just a hydro thing. I cannot speak to your practice that prevents it in your system, can you? If not you are a lucky son of a gun is alll I can a say. If you were to get it tomorrow you would break out option 1 or 2 right? Or do you know something nobody else does about this? You have also told me in the past that pushing hot air into the res via pump / stones does not raise water temp. It’s possible you live in some sort of space time warp where normal rules of physics do not apply. 😂
 
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smokedareefer

smokedareefer

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I think you missed part of what I said

Neither means you are so damn good at growing that you laugh at things like Pythium, and use neither H2O2 or Great White.

I’ll tell you that root rot is real but it is not just a hydro thing. I cannot speak to your practice that prevents it in your system, can you? If not you are a lucky son of a gun is alll I can a say. If you were to get it tomorrow you would break out option 1 or 2 right? Or do you know something nobody else does about this? You have also told me in the past that pushing hot air into the res via pump / stones does not raise water temp. It’s possible you live in some sort of space time warp where normal rules of physics do not apply.
You don't have to convince me that root rot is real, but all i can say is that ive never lost a crop because of it. Ive always only grown 4 plants at a time and never lost one to root rot. My first attempt at rdwc wasin a 4 site home made 5 gal set up and only harvested one plant of the 4. Other 3 were a loss because of uniseals.
If i got it tomorrow and couldn't beat it myself i would then turn to adding great white or similar. After one go with the home made system, i purchased a 4 site 13 gal system from current culture and a chiller and have never looked back. (Except for the normal stuff)

My comment before about pumping hot air. To clarify, the room where my air pumps are in often gets to 100 degrees so im pumping 100 degree air via the stones, into the 68 degree chilled circulating water from my chillers which are also in the same room as my air pumps.

My plants seem to like the warm air air on their roots and the cooler circulating water. They haven't told me otherwise. Ive though of moving the air pumps, but why? My old grow room at my old place was in a 7x10 room with the chiller and air pump in the warm room next door also.

Another thing worth noting is the fact that im on well water with a starting ppm of 2200, my old place thats 1/2 mile away was around 2300.

Looking for that nice white fibrous root structure, mine are white but not alot of the fibrous or wishbone type appearance. From my agricultural background, "hairy roots are happy roots " but mine don't seem to be hairy.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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I hear you. I think you also do a fair amount of down time between grows, right? So if you were to get some baddies, they would die off between grows I'm thinking, basically a natural sterilization process. Like leaving a field fallow. Most of us don't pause between grows, so if you get contaminated and do nothing about it, it effects every grow going forward.

I wouldn't change what you are doing with air or anything else if it is working for you and you are happy. We don't all have to have the same goals or techniques. What I was reacting to on the hot air was that you told me that pushing heat into a res via a piston pump was possibly a myth, but the laws of physics would disagree. The fact that you are running a chiller allows you to keep temps in the right zone. Folks who don't have one may create their own problems with heat in the res based on lack of understanding. This applies primarily to new growers. Most of what I put on the forum is intended for new growers, and I spend a fair amount of time dealing with root rot and other emergencies with newbies. You are in a different class!

I have no idea how you are getting away with 2200PPM start. Another smokedareefer mystery. I'd be worried about sodium, among other things.

FWIW, mycos will enhance the root structure. Here is an example of running beneficials from seed and putting the plants into an inoculated system:

1670627855388-png.1309819


^^^This was actually a throw away male plant when I was testing low PPM levels, but look at the white fungus on the substrate. That comes from Orca or Great White. The beaker has a concentration of them which I dip the roots and substrate into, fully submerging them. Then pop them back in the hydro system. Not much to it.

Below is how 4 week old established roots in my system look. Is that the structure you are going for?

1670631402828-png.1309842
 
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smokedareefer

smokedareefer

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I hear you. I think you also do a fair amount of down time between grows, right? So if you were to get some baddies, they would die off between grows I'm thinking, basically a natural sterilization process. Like leaving a field fallow. Most of us don't pause between grows, so if you get contaminated and do nothing about it, it effects every grow going forward.

I wouldn't change what you are doing with air or anything else if it is working for you and you are happy. We don't all have to have the same goals or techniques. What I was reacting to on the hot air was that you told me that pushing heat into a res via a piston pump was possibly a myth, but the laws of physics would disagree. The fact that you are running a chiller allows you to keep temps in the right zone. Folks who don't have one may create their own problems with heat in the res based on lack of understanding. This applies primarily to new growers. Most of what I put on the forum is intended for new growers, and I spend a fair amount of time dealing with root rot and other emergencies with newbies. You are in a different class!

I have no idea how you are getting away with 2200PPM start. Another smokedareefer mystery. I'd be worried about sodium, among other things.

FWIW, mycos will enhance the root structure. Here is an example of running beneficials from seed and putting the plants into an inoculated system:

1670627855388-png.1309819


^^^This was actually a throw away male plant when I was testing low PPM levels, but look at the white fungus on the substrate. That comes from Orca or Great White. The beaker has a concentration of them which I dip the roots and substrate into, fully submerging them. Then pop them back in the hydro system. Not much to it.

Below is how 4 week old established roots in my system look. Is that the structure you are going for?

1670631402828-png.1309842
Do a search for a old member on this site called texas kid (good grower) i remember his starting well water was 2600. I'll agree with your salt comment for sure but to date i haven't had an issue that im aware off.

Here's a reject that i left in the veg room to see how far a falling ph changes things or if it did at all in my system. Ph went to 4.3 on this plant.
20221103 075849
20221027 162925
20221101 100427

And here is a snap of one of my keepers the day she moved to the flower room. Notice the lack of fibrous roots. Looks to be mostly tap root or am i wrong?
Water level is 1 inch below net pot, notice the roots in that area or near the surface have more "hair".
I already had your 2 root pictures in my "root" file as i have been curious how i do what i do.
20221217 114747
 
20221217 114020
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Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Do a search for a old member on this site called texas kid (good grower) i remember his starting well water was 2600. I'll agree with your salt comment for sure but to date i haven't had an issue that im aware off.

Here's a reject that i left in the veg room to see how far a falling ph changes things or if it did at all in my system. Ph went to 4.3 on this plant.View attachment 1316634View attachment 1316636View attachment 1316635
And here is a snap of one of my keepers the day she moved to the flower room. Notice the lack of fibrous roots. Looks to be mostly tap root or am i wrong?
Water level is 1 inch below net pot, notice the roots in that area or near the surface have more "hair".
I already had your 2 root pictures in my "root" file as i have been curious how i do what i do.View attachment 1316641
Yeah I agree the roots are not hairy, but I see that in my RDWC systems at the end too. Here is an example

1666973685307-png.1297304


Seems like the area where the roots are packed in does not grow hairy, but the other areas with space around, like at the top, does. Seems like that can be effected by veg time from my informal experience less veg = more hair. Also, if you starve them a little up front, they grow more, hairier roots if that is a thing. But early root growth is always pretty hairy in my RDWC. Either way, what you are doing is working, but like you I would feel better with less snake and more hair. Could just be us stupid humans putting our value on plant morphology while they laugh at us knowing they are doing it right for the conditions they are in.

Very curious. You have me thinking. 🤔

I also wonder how what we do above the ground effects the roots below. I typically defoliate and scrog. I'm sure that has a different effect on root requirements than letting the plant go natural. A significant amount of the plants in your pics would have been gone in my system. But I pack them in closer, you have lots of room to work with.


Lots of variables brother. I can't even keep track of them all.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Another thing, a tap root from a seedling will actually keep growing longer and longer until it reaches some resistance like the bottom of the pot. It seems to me that in some cases roots just grow to fill whatever space they are in, as witnessed by our pics above. Other times, in RDWC, I've seen roots that do not fill the pots. I can link to active grows today that are in flower where the roots only take up 1/2 or 1/3 the available space. I do not know why some are different, but you have me curious now lol.
 
Cashmeh

Cashmeh

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I just want to argue, so someone bite, but no personal attacks.

Higher water temps promote good and bad bacterial growth. Having a chiller or a heater will not determine if you get root rot.

Imagine it like this, two species competing for the same space. One requires oxygen and the other does not. If the Good bacteria get enough O2, they will be stronger than the bad bacterial that doesnt use the 02. When you have good bacteria and roots in the same pot, they compete for the 02 in the water. The warmer the water, the greater the growth rates of not only the roots and plant, but the bacteria.

If you have sufficient 02 levels, you will not get root rot. These 02 levels will be depleted fast so having proper circulation and aeration of the water is just as important.

Light leaks can cause algae to form on the surfaces inside your system. This not only uses up your nutrients, but it will prevent 02 from being exchanged in the water if it creates a biofilm.

i would never run a chiller in a live system. Those are for sterile systems that like have to run at 68f. In sterile you kill the bad growth instead of promoting the good growth. So you keep low temps to ensure slow microbial growth, thus reducing the amount of corrosives you need to add.

Water temps at 68f might hold the most 02 levels, but just like some other parameters, cough brix, is highly overated. If you limit yourself to 68f water temps because you feel that having the most 02 in the pot is that important. . well wow. . . its proven that you get faster plant growth rates with warmer water temps. . so why not work towards that. Which is what I do. I can assure anyone 72f has no issues holding sufficient 02 levels for marijuana cultivation in live systems.
 
Cashmeh

Cashmeh

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i was thinking the same thing for years but ive been growing "neither" for the last 10 years with good success. So much so that i don't think its a fluke anymore.
Grab a microscope and meet your bus. Your running live, unless u use chlorinated tap water. You get bbs naturally via humidity like me.
 
Z

Zill

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Indoor container growing, if successful, supplies everything a plant needs to grow and flower.

Why should a healthy container plant develop an Afro like root ball with millions delicate root hairs if it’s getting everything it needs? I guess in hard times the plant responding to neglect could begin searching with roots.

Not surprised at no hairs.

Zill.
 
smokedareefer

smokedareefer

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263
Yeah I agree the roots are not hairy, but I see that in my RDWC systems at the end too. Here is an example

1666973685307-png.1297304


Seems like the area where the roots are packed in does not grow hairy, but the other areas with space around, like at the top, does. Seems like that can be effected by veg time from my informal experience less veg = more hair. Also, if you starve them a little up front, they grow more, hairier roots if that is a thing. But early root growth is always pretty hairy in my RDWC. Either way, what you are doing is working, but like you I would feel better with less snake and more hair. Could just be us stupid humans putting our value on plant morphology while they laugh at us knowing they are doing it right for the conditions they are in.

Very curious. You have me thinking. 🤔

I also wonder how what we do above the ground effects the roots below. I typically defoliate and scrog. I'm sure that has a different effect on root requirements than letting the plant go natural. A significant amount of the plants in your pics would have been gone in my system. But I pack them in closer, you have lots of room to work with.


Lots of variables brother. I can't even keep track of them all.
I'll typically shave their legs just before going into flower and then a defoliation at day 21.

Today is day 21
20230110 101507

20230109 092040
 
I

IamN2pot

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First up, THANKS to all for the good advice. I purchased a Vivosun 4 bucket DWC. It's on sale, add on another 15% coupon code and the $4.20 they give you for making an account and the total was only $126. Now I want to add recirculating pump and reservoir. I'm also expecting to add a chiller to the system for summer, but right now, temp in the garage is running about 50* so I'll need a water heater.
Anyone have a good 1/2" bulkhead fitting for 5 gal buckets to recomend?
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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First up, THANKS to all for the good advice. I purchased a Vivosun 4 bucket DWC. It's on sale, add on another 15% coupon code and the $4.20 they give you for making an account and the total was only $126. Now I want to add recirculating pump and reservoir. I'm also expecting to add a chiller to the system for summer, but right now, temp in the garage is running about 50* so I'll need a water heater.
Anyone have a good 1/2" bulkhead fitting for 5 gal buckets to recomend?
problem with buckets is they are round. If you come out the side they need a very thick gasket to compensate for curvature or will leak. I had to make my own washers on a 3D printer to accommodate normal bulkheads.
Can you come out the bottom?

 
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IamN2pot

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problem with buckets is they are round. If you come out the side they need a very thick gasket to compensate for curvature or will leak. I had to make my own washers on a 3D printer to accommodate normal bulkheads.
Can you come out the bottom?

I know that's an option, I just don't want to have to customise a 4'x4' pallet down to 110cmx110cm, :). I found these on Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B7CSTQ8...colid=1ZMWORAZFQ46T&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
They have washers and are small, so not much concave/convex to have to flatten on the bucket. Maybe?
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

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They have washers and are small, so not much concave/convex to have to flatten on the bucket. Maybe?

If these are for your return lines, I think they will be too small and clog with roots eventually. The smallest return lines I have seen are 2" and some say those even clog up, not sure what the truth is there. My system runs a 3" line back to the res and would be pretty hard to clog that up. I would try to get some square buckets, they are spendy but you won't have this issue and can go with larger bulkheads and return lines.

 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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313
I know that's an option, I just don't want to have to customise a 4'x4' pallet down to 110cmx110cm, :). I found these on Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B7CSTQ8...colid=1ZMWORAZFQ46T&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
They have washers and are small, so not much concave/convex to have to flatten on the bucket. Maybe?
They might work. Plan on some silicone would be my advice. I could never get them to seal up like that myself. Couple other options:

#1 - they sell brass ones too. Those are strong enough if you really torque on them to deform / flatten the pail
#2 - make friends with a guy with a 3D printer, and he might do you a solid. I might know one of them lol. Put some concave washers in there to hold the seals tight to the pail and they do work. Not perfect, but they work. Moving the pails can still cause leaks.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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313
If these are for your return lines, I think they will be too small and clog with roots eventually. The smallest return lines I have seen are 2" and some say those even clog up, not sure what the truth is there. My system runs a 3" line back to the res and would be pretty hard to clog that up. I would try to get some square buckets, they are spendy but you won't have this issue and can go with larger bulkheads and return lines.

Good point. Aqua man uses 2" and gets away with it. I have clogged 2" myself, and the result is you empty the res into the bottom of your grow space. Been there.
 
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IamN2pot

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Well, that was another question I had, roots and pluggung up a circulating DWC. I was/am hopeful that a slowly circulating system might work with the small return lines, something like this from Amazon, here
71iW19v3ILL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

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Well, that was another question I had, roots and pluggung up a circulating DWC. I was/am hopeful that a slowly circulating system might work with the small return lines, something like this from Amazon, here

One concern I have, not an expert here, but those continuous feed lines pushing water down the hydroton? Not sure that is a good idea for Cannabis or not. I know A-Man recommends pouring a couple of cups down the hydroton once a week, but continuous? I have not seen this but that is a question I would have for the experts.

If those lines do plug, you will have a mess to clean up as Moe mentioned.
 
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