Wise and knowledgeable expert advise for DWC at altitude.

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IamN2pot

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OK, so the Jack's 321 uses "Magnisium Sulfate epsom salts". I never knew that epsom salts came in multipal formulas. A quick look on Amazon shows at least 3 Agricultural epsom salt(s). One salt that is 100% Magnesium Sulfate, here. Then there is this one, it's Magnesium Sulfate heptahydrate. and last is the one I have here. It has a completely differant 'guarenteed analysis'. Not to mention plain old generic Magnesium Sulfate USP (food grade?) Soooo, I wonder if Jack's has theor own formula. Not alot on their label. here. Thought I could save some of the $27 + shipping for epsom salts, now I'm not so sure. 😕
Suggestions and recomendations?
Thanks!
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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OK, so the Jack's 321 uses "Magnisium Sulfate epsom salts". I never knew that epsom salts came in multipal formulas. A quick look on Amazon shows at least 3 Agricultural epsom salt(s). One salt that is 100% Magnesium Sulfate, here. Then there is this one, it's Magnesium Sulfate heptahydrate. and last is the one I have here. It has a completely differant 'guarenteed analysis'. Not to mention plain old generic Magnesium Sulfate USP (food grade?) Soooo, I wonder if Jack's has theor own formula. Not alot on their label. here. Thought I could save some of the $27 + shipping for epsom salts, now I'm not so sure. 😕
Suggestions and recomendations?
Thanks!
The first link is exactly what I’m using. It’s a big bag tho so it will last a really long time. Plenty to dump in the bathtub with ya.
 
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IamN2pot

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The first link is exactly what I’m using. It’s a big bag tho so it will last a really long time. Plenty to dump in the bathtub with ya.
Thanks Moe, for your expertise! Any problem using the pure food grade? I've already got some of the wally mart Equate brand in the bathroom.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Ok dude I thought I would share with you what I have figured out.

First, I watched some videos by the Jack's guys.


Then I set out to make a 100x concentrate.

For Clone, normal amount is 2.5 g/Gal.
3.785 liters/gal
2.5gr / 3.785 l/gal = .66g/liter.
5 times since 5 liters = 3.3g/5 liters
100X concentration = 330grams in 5 liters.

Turns out that beaker is the perfect size, so going forward I only need a heaping beaker for 5L. I'm done with math!!

DBEA5BA5 B177 4E72 BC1F 97D6D311322B
'
17C67E1F E34C 41A1 B8E4 68941A78925A

504F4B17 6C50 4811 B840 5CD1F6AA2379

7A3DE6FA 8AB0 45B7 B28B 738CA88335CB


So a little beaker full of that makes my PPM go up by 100. Nice.

10 grams of silica plus 30 mL of PH down make the PH exactly 5.8

976050F2 2218 4D4B A885 C33A91BC1BF9


I also mixed up the other Jacks and Epsom to work the same way in the same amounts. Restarting the RDWC now, we'll put this to the test.
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

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10 grams of silica plus 30 mL of PH down make the PH exactly 5.8

Are you adding this to your concentrate nutrient mix or is that for the res itself?

Fun watching this. I had looked at Jacks when I was first considering hydro but couldn't find much on how to use it, especially as a beginner. I love the idea of having liquid concentrate and the convenience that offers. Nice work Moe.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Are you adding this to your concentrate nutrient mix or is that for the res itself?

Fun watching this. I had looked at Jacks when I was first considering hydro but couldn't find much on how to use it, especially as a beginner. I love the idea of having liquid concentrate and the convenience that offers. Nice work Moe.
CURLEY.0.meme.webp


The silica vs PH down is the buffer I put in at the start of the run. Goes in the res and gets stirred up and the 2 together resist PH change.

I tried Silicium but it just made my res bubble and foam and was waaaaaaaay too expensive. Not again on that one.

As far as the bottles vs. dry nutes go, yeah it's not only easier it is more reliable in terms of dose. Also allows for future automation via peristaltic pump.

Based on my bench testing I will be using 5 grams of silica powder per 1 liter of RO water to make my own PH Up that also provides silica. I have a DIY PH dosing system I plan to run this in.
 
SweetLeafGrow

SweetLeafGrow

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That is what I thought but wasn't sure if you were adding that to your nutes, which didn't make sense to me but ya never know. Sometimes little things mean a lot.

I have also bought a pound of Agsil 16 and going to mix that up and start using it when that watered down stuff I have been using is gone. I had found/bookmarked a thread on how to mix that stuff into a concentrate.
 
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IamN2pot

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You guys, SLG and Moe, are inspiring me to keep pressing on. I've had a couple of minor setbacks lately. The pH, ppm and temp monitor/meter I orderd, ....well it was listed as new, unopened and unused. It was none of the 3, so after a round with the seller, I have a full refund. Nice refund, but now I'm waiting on a new meter, from another vender on Amazon. No biggie, right? So I ordered all my Jack's and they all arrived. I wish they had all arrived dry. The 15-6-17 Clone arrived wet, sopping wet. The package was factory sealed and wasn't compromised. No holes or any way I could find the water got inside AFTER it was factory sealed. Yes, I complained to Amazon and was issued a refund, but honestly, I believe it came from Jack's this way. So I also contacted Jack's. Thay wanted to know who the vender was and said :
"The nutrients are still good to use though, we recommend increasing your amount by 10-15% to compensate for the moisture in the 15-6-17. Once you open your nutrients the key to proper storage is to keep them in a cool dry area."
SERIOUSLY! and then added that if I want my water tested, they have a lab. Look at this picture of it after opening it. and no, I had no idea it was that soaking wet before I opened it. I will be sending another email to Jack's with this picture of their product. It's likely about 1/2 water by weight and yes, I weighed it, 1098gr with packaging.
Seriously, you can see water(?) puddling up on the top of it, see?
IMG 20230214 074839


OK, enough of the problems! As you can likely tell from my post, I think of myself as a "measure twice, cut once" person. So with that in mind, I've tripple tested my - surprise!, extra parts setup. I've also rooted up a tomato cutting from the veggie garden I posted about here,
that's ready to be my "canary in the coal mine" to learn on before I go busting $10 beans. 😉
IMG 20230214 085344



Here is what I've got that I THINK is ready to start with. Please feel free to add things I'm missing.
Nutes:
15-6-17 Clone(wet), 15-0-0 B, 5-12-26 A, 10-30-20 Bloom, 7-15-30 Finish, Potassium Silicate, Epsom salt, Orca, Citric Acid (pH down), Potassium Bi-Carbonate (pH up), and RO water that is testing at 11ppm.
IMG 20230214 082352



And since I am working in the spare bedroom, I'm taking extra mearures (pun intended) to insure no water leaks in the bedroom. I have my reservoir bucket inside a large tote, as shown in the video below. All hose connections are inside it and the tent. Everything, except my chiller/heater, is up and running and the chiller will arrive by Friday. I guess I have to use the tried and true frozen water bottles until then. My current water temp is 72*.

...and will someone leave a list of order of when to add things. Does the Orca go in first or last???? How many gr of Silica per gallon of water? and then pH down to 5.8? This is about 6 gal total.


...and for the record, here is what a bell pepper plant looks like that has been overdosed with Calcium. The tomato plants looked just as bad before I stripped them. SHAME ON ME!!!!!! Guess that explains why I practice on on veggies... 😲 😁 💡 👍
IMG 20230214 082246


and again, THANKS for your time and expertise!!!!!!
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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I was warned that Clone especially was hygroscopic, so keep it sealed. I have no explanation for what you got tho.

The products you have there should be all you need.

72* is actually perfect. It will likely go up with lights on, but you can probably get away without a chiller. You can certainly start without one.

In terms of order to add, I start with RO and adjust PH next. First goes in Silica (Potassium Silicate) in my case 10grams is perfect for my 50 gallons of water capacity. For you, 10*6/50 = 1.2 grams if you want to match what I am doing. More is fine, it will just take more PH down.

If you go in at 1.2 grams, you will need about 5mL of PH down. But add until you get to a stable PH of 5.8. I then run this a full day with all pumps and air and in 24 hours, adjust a final time as needed.

Once PH is set, you can add clone (if you get a replacement). The amount will be based on if you are doing seedlings or rooted clones or whatever. If seedlings, stay in the 150 - 200 PPM range on the 500 scale. If rooted clones, you can be 300 or a little more.

Next would be epsom. Just a gram or 2 will work for such a small system.

Then add biologics. This should be done as you introduce plants. Grab a beaker of res water, put in the Orca, and put the plant(s) roots and substrate and all in the beaker. Let it soak in a minute or 2. Then put the plant in the RDWC and dump the rest of the beaker in the res.

One final PH check and adjustment, but no adjustment should be needed. If there is, make a note of it and post it up so we can help. Could be nothing, could be a sign of contamination in a new system, could be bad biologics, could be CO2 in the water if PH drifts much at all.

If you are in the zone, you can expect roots to double daily in the first 2 weeks, and the plant to start adding a node a day once the roots get caught up. Some of that depends on your start, but at some point in your early grow that is the trend you should expect.
 
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IamN2pot

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Bless you!!! that's just what I needed to see and hear! I was curious about running it for 24hrs to let everything settle. I know in my tiny 2 quart cloner, my pH has to be adjusted every 8 hours for the first day or so. That plant is in a 210-220 ppm solution of RO and CloneX 1-.6-1 seedling and rooting solution @ 5.8 target and 72* because that's the house temp. ...and how the heck does one tell if a cheap ppm meter from Amazon is on the 500 or the 700 scale? That one is new to me, too.

One more question. On the Jack's nute schedule for 321, will I be changing out the water when the formula's change? From Clone to Veg, again at bud set "for 1 week", again for flower, then for late flower and flush?
Something tells me with "live", I should just adjust the nute values to as close as the schedule as possable, but that's purely my speculation. 🙃 Not that 4 water changes and a flush are out of the question, I just don't know.
Screenshot 2023 02 14 121401 PM
 
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Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Bless you!!! that's just what I needed to see and hear! I was curious about running it for 24hrs to let everything settle. I know in my tiny 2 quart cloner, my pH has to be adjusted every 8 hours for the first day or so. That plant is in a 210-220 ppm solution of RO and CloneX 1-.6-1 seedling and rooting solution @ 5.8 target and 72* because that's the house temp. ...and how the heck does one tell if a cheap ppm meter from Amazon is on the 500 or the 700 scale? That one is new to me, too.

One more question. On the Jack's nute schedule for 321, will I be changing out the water when the formula's change? From Clone to Veg, again at bud set "for 1 week", again for flower, then for late flower and flush?
Something tells me with "live", I should just adjust the nute values to as close as the schedule as possable, but that's purely my speculation. 🙃 Not that 4 water changes and a flush are out of the question, I just don't know.
View attachment 1331038
@Aqua Man I see you following along, jump right in.

Does your meter have a button to switch between EC and PPM or TDS? If so, give me a reading on each scale and I'll tell you what you have.

EC = 1 = 500PPM = 500 scale for example.

In terms of changing out the res, I am going to strongly suggest you do that on your first experience. Doing so re-balances all the nutes which is really important. The ratio of each one to each other is more important than the actual PPM number, within reason. Dumping and starting over makes sure you are in the right balance. A little pump with a hose to the sink makes it really easy.

In the future once you have been successful and managed a couple of imbalances, topping off rather than dumping becomes realistic. That's when the training wheels come off. I might be a few days ahead of you, I'll post what I am doing as I do it on a new thread so you can decide what parts of what I am saying to adopt - what works best for you. At least there will be a road map to follow, even if you like the side trips.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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@Aqua Man I see you following along, jump right in.

Does your meter have a button to switch between EC and PPM or TDS? If so, give me a reading on each scale and I'll tell you what you have.

EC = 1 = 500PPM = 500 scale for example.

In terms of changing out the res, I am going to strongly suggest you do that on your first experience. Doing so re-balances all the nutes which is really important. The ratio of each one to each other is more important than the actual PPM number, within reason. Dumping and starting over makes sure you are in the right balance. A little pump with a hose to the sink makes it really easy.

In the future once you have been successful and managed a couple of imbalances, topping off rather than dumping becomes realistic. That's when the training wheels come off. I might be a few days ahead of you, I'll post what I am doing as I do it on a new thread so you can decide what parts of what I am saying to adopt - what works best for you. At least there will be a road map to follow, even if you like the side trips.
In the middles of a course right now so just peeking here and there
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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What i have used in the past before designing a drain and fill system. It will fill and drain… a bit wasteful on the drain but sure much easier then lugging buckets if you dont have a pumo drain and fill system

 
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IamN2pot

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What i have used in the past before designing a drain and fill system. It will fill and drain… a bit wasteful on the drain but sure much easier then lugging buckets if you dont have a pumo drain and fill system


Those work surprisingly well.

You to are killin' me, ROFLMAO!!! Great info, but I think I need to change my user name to MiniMeN2pot. My indoor 'training' system is just 6 gallons and the 4 x 5 gal in the garage only takes 15 gallons with reservoir. Moe has a 50 gal reservoir and lord only knows what Aqua's got, a swimming pool reservoir? Hahahaha!!! 😉 😲
It's ALL GOOD! I appreciate your help more than I can express!!!! and to laugh along the way is special!

Here are the TDS meters, for now anyway. They are TDS only.
IMG 20230214 135644
 
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IamN2pot

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WOW, glad I can practice. 1.2 gr of silica shot the pH up to 9.2, so I'm thinking about 1 gr of Citric Acid to bring it down. It did, to 4.8, LOL. So, an additional .8 gr of silica brought it back up to 5.8. Note to self, 2 to 1 ratio silica to citric = aprox 5.8pH. So next time, it's 1.2gr silica and .6gr citric.
But for now, is that to much silica? That some 60%+ more silica than Moe uses? Starting over is real easy at this point. 😉
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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WOW, glad I can practice. 1.2 gr of silica shot the pH up to 9.2, so I'm thinking about 1 gr of Citric Acid to bring it down. It did, to 4.8, LOL. So, an additional .8 gr of silica brought it back up to 5.8. Note to self, 2 to 1 ratio silica to citric = aprox 5.8pH. So next time, it's 1.2gr silica and .6gr citric.
But for now, is that to much silica? That some 60%+ more silica than Moe uses? Starting over is real easy at this point. 😉
Citric acid? I have a feeling your going to run into ph stability issues
 
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