Stop The Bro Science Behind Molasses And Other Organic Stuff

[CaliRooted]

Always trying to further educate myself. I respect everyone's input on this . Happy Growing

 

[Hpo777]

so, what would a redneck like my self use with my micros/tea to supplement molasses for tea? i let them chill for 48 hours and use.

keep it simple yo!
interesting topic.. first time iv seen it talked about in a logical manor,most times it just someone saying its bro science, with no data to back up there arguments..

Just don't use it in teas, don't need to add any simple sugars to teas, simple sugars just feed bacteria. I'd take whatever recipe you're using(keep it to 3 or 4 ingredients max) and brew and water!

 

[jipp]

Just don't use it in teas, don't need to add any simple sugars to teas, simple sugars just feed bacteria. I'd take whatever recipe you're using(keep it to 3 or 4 ingredients max) and brew and water!

im using basic micros that have some bat shit etc.. takes 2tbs to 4 gallon of water, and a tbs of molasses. im not brewing, maybe that is the issue im am not considering.
so, what would i feed them? i guess, that is what im asking; if not molasses.

 

[Hpo777]

im using basic micros that have some bat shit etc.. takes 2tbs to 4 gallon of water, and a tbs of molasses. im not brewing, maybe that is the issue im am not considering.
so, what would i feed them? i guess, that is what im asking; if not molasses.

If your soil is correct...you shouldn't have to! Your plants releases exodates! Exodates are sugars, amino acids, and protein! They feed the gpod guys without feeding the bad guys!

 

[jipp]

If your soil is correct...you shouldn't have to! Your plants releases exodates! Exodates are sugars, amino acids, and protein! They feed the gpod guys without feeding the bad guys!

that would make shit much easier for me. i will experiment. thank you.. something to think about, and look into for sure.

bowl up!

 

[jipp]

worth a read, no matter your opinion on the subject.

 

[CaliRooted]

I learned most of what I know from field experience, not in a book or a class. 1000 ways to do this.

 

[MirrorZen]

Maybe your opinion will change after you finish schooling.
I am surprised more ppl haven't jumped on this highly debated question lol.

 

[the rrock]

Been using molasses for over 25 years with great results

 

[Hpo777]

Maybe your opinion will change after you finish schooling.
I am surprised more ppl haven't jumped on this highly debated question lol.

Elaine has a PhD and she hasn't changed her mind lol my professors also have PhDs, haven't changed their minds...I have a degree in biology, studying Soil Science I don't think I'm changing my mind until someone disproves it with scientific data. "I've used it for years" and "experience" are not good reasons to keep doing something. Let me say though THANK YOU FOR NOT USING INORGANIC FERTS! They destroy our planet and turn soil into dirt! But Why use something that your plant is already feeding the bacteria though? It's not needed, only in rare cases is it needed. Maybe your soil is your problem not your tea...any respected soil biologist is going to tell you without a scope...dont.

 

[Ceveres]

@Hpo777 What is you and your profs. take on pre-harvest flush? Obviously with inorganic salt based ferts you would want to. No till I would think you wouldn't need to, but what if you're using an organic bottled nute line with AACT's?

 

[PharmHand]

You would think cannabis ,being an annual, would prefer /do best in bacterial dominant soils. Endo mycorrhizae only need a single association to be effective making reinocculation unecessary. @Ecompost could explain much better than me....

Tim Wilson knows his shit and essentially applies Elaine's method to cannabis specifically. Elaine ingham, while brilliant, is most definitely biased towards conservation hence condemning things like bat guano. She don't give a lick about maximizing cannabis growth organically. I've hit nearly 3 a light of top shelf with a few amendments ,fish hydrolysate, liquid kelp, molasses and Tims bacterial dominant tea recipes. The shotgun approach as Tim puts it. All depends on ones goals I suppose.... Happy farming :)

 

[PharmHand]

I've read all of her info on the web, very good stuff. I don't fully agree, I have been using molasses for years in my Tea's, I believe it's more in the amount you use. I do use more in my veg tea's than flower and my plants never complain.View attachment 737823

Is that ducting your return air for your handler? Going down like that it's got me wondering haha:eyepiece: Nice room/plants btw

 

[CaliRooted]

@PharmHand Yes it is and thanks man. If I had to change it I'd raise them up, currently there like right at container level. I draw in with a 10 inch fan. I'm able to do 2 runs a year without AC, really nice on the old power bill.

 

[G gnome]

I learned most of what I know from field experience, not in a book or a class. 1000 ways to do this.

Fuckin A!!!

 

[oldskol4evr]

Fuckin A!!!

im with ya gnome,all trail and era here too,reading books never taught me nothing,field work has,,with elaine if you go back you will find she has preached the sermone several times to years later admit she wasnt correct,,this comes with field work

 

[Ecompost]

You would think cannabis ,being an annual, would prefer /do best in bacterial dominant soils. Endo mycorrhizae only need a single association to be effective making reinocculation unecessary. @Ecompost could explain much better than me....

Tim Wilson knows his shit and essentially applies Elaine's method to cannabis specifically. Elaine ingham, while brilliant, is most definitely biased towards conservation hence condemning things like bat guano. She don't give a lick about maximizing cannabis growth organically. I've hit nearly 3 a light of top shelf with a few amendments ,fish hydrolysate, liquid kelp, molasses and Tims bacterial dominant tea recipes. The shotgun approach as Tim puts it. All depends on ones goals I suppose.... Happy farming :)

what seems to be interesting to me, is that bacteria have very little overhead to the trade in relationship between them and plant, where as typically when we discuss fungus and say P acquisition in low P media, there is usually some payment to be made, this may well be in alternate protein cascades via required additional gene insertion, and this might actually result in a lower yield than if we amended with liquid P inputs, perhaps not as low as it might otherwise have been the case without the fungus (or help), but perhaps the harvest has less flavor or some other cute human property, or it ripens faster, slower...

What i can say with certainty, I have a cannabis plant that I have been growing now all year,. I have cropped it already and its now going for another run. i didnt do anything special, i just neglected to remove the whole plant, this due to other commitments as priority.
On remembering i hadnt cleaned it up, I happened to make time to check it, this was about 3 weeks later and I noticed it had lots of new growth so i just left it. I read about hemp and its ability to regenerate despite a really heavy cropping, taking the plant back to a stump, similar to roses, or even many vines such as grape, so i left it going, well it, i have 2.
This plants are associated with 2 strains of glomus, having taken root samples and tested them to confirm. this may well be a result of changing environmental's over the course of time. its been quite cool here, and then blisteringly hot. Rhizophagus irregularis and Funneliformis mosseae in case you were wondering :) It just may be the ash i use in my soil mix has sounded the alarm and rallied the glomus?
I have periodically been adding several strains of PSB and KSB etc, alongside some bio control ento fungus, yeasts, trichoderma and bacteria, but of course I am not adding more Mycos.
I have seen drops in mineralization across the time, I suspect this is standard bacterial warfare and the odd low oxygen moment and related protozoa swarms. Quick top dress with BMP and Wormcast ...or batguano ...I aint Elaine now am I, and i quickly pick up the flaws without stress.

I have been using similar products to you, those i make of course, you really would be amazed at the difference in the land here already, only 6 months of BOX love. I have worms. I am the only person for miles around to have visible worms, mm from the surface in a country not known for its worm populations. I havent added these, they came as the soil tilth returned and we got a handle on the toxins through the insertion of fungal mulch.

Biggest headaches i have are from the past tenants of the land I am transforming here.
Existing practices here are a little behind the curve and so there is abundant sclerotinia and massive soil profile collapse.
I have been pre staging my planting here with Citric acid and Zinc AA chelate to help mitigate the hazard, but the near 30 years use of pesticide, herbicide and fungicide is making my life harder than it ought to be :)
I am manually removing plants across the farm estate, this way I understand why and how before i take away anything useful. I have found some really interesting stuff growing among the wild plants here, including ones that are anti lipid accumulation, anti psychotic, and some that release critical VOC's essential for ground beetle communications. In light of the importance of these ground beetles to the health of my system. I am leaving most of them in the ground and removing only the ones that are problematic for the tree growth.
I am replanting bio control plants and a border of predator bug host crops this winter. I will be laying the new wood chip paths at this stage also. next year i anticipate a lot less work :)
This is why i grow organic, its less work even if i do get the odd drop in yield, crop dependent.

by the way, Tim is a good dude, Elaine was a pioneer along with Jeff and her husband. Tim imo has very practically added to Elaine's work, as have now popular faces like Ray Archuleta, David Moore, Paul Stamets, Urs Niggli, Mike Harrington. Not to mention the thousands of unseen students around the world adding to the academic understanding which we as growers must decide the value of.

The new problem is how to measure for biology simply? The easiest way to know how well our microbes are working, is to monitor the CO2. Easy to use burst rate tests are available from other thought leaders such as Dr Rick Haney over at Solvita. I think we are right at the begining of this bio journey and so i tread carefully to say what microbes will and wont do. I am not sure we really understand fully the mechanisms.

 

[Ecompost]

Rick

Great Post! A lot of people fail to realize just how much air you need to pump in as well.

it is amazing just how quickly, given exposure to air where temperatures allows, that water can pick up fresh Oxygen and deplete or sterilize anaerobes. Most anaerobes are killed by the simple tumble from my sprayer head, to the soil, but I do agree, we should watch out for over feeding soils delicate balance too much food. This is why i am frustrated by the like of BioBizz, BioCanna, Kushman et al who tells you just lump in 5ml/L of whatever sugar they sell with every feed to harvest.
if people took time to understand nutrients as a system in balance with plant development markers, there would be less inherent risk, but most people just what someone to tell them what to do and when, rather than taking time to get to know each plants preferences, environmental and feed amounts.

I think people need to understand the differences between aerobic, anaerobic and facultative anaerobic.

So,
Aerobic = Microbes that need oxygen to make ATP
Anaerobic = Microbes that dont need Oxygen to make ATP (lives by pure fermentation)
Facultative anaerobic = can live in either O2 rich, or O2 depleted and make ATP.

 

[Ecompost]

Also guys remember compost piles are AMAZING for our environment! It's good for you...your plants...and the earth!

I said not to use fungicides and pesticides...uhh How do I get rid of the "bad shit" Then?

So your bacteria are gonna be the big boys here! They are a fortress for diseases and pest! Remember a good "soil"(not dirt, soil means living, dirt is no organic matter) maintains the top of your plant...just as much as the lower! As long as your bottom soil is aerobic...those bennies will fight! A good tip to stop "compacting"(causing your roots not dig and also causing anaerobic pockets) is to throw some cover crop! Or mulch etc. I prefer cover crop(if your in larger containers) it's pretty, it's cheap, and it does the work for you(perk to cover crop is you can get a beneficial crop to aid in the growth process by providing nitrogen etc).

composting is great, just be sure to compost correctly to avoid breeding in bad actor microbes. Lots of resource, by far the best is Cornell.
Learn, then do where we can.

So we get the terminology right, a cover crop is one you use to cover the land between grows. If you are using a crop alongside your target crop, this is a companion plant, even if you are using it for living mulch. If we can get this right, we can standardize based on the universal language of agriculture, and then when people are searching terms, they might find more relevant data with more ease.
For example, searching for predator bug host plants to use alongside your cannabis, this will be found as a companion plant, not as a cover.

Understanding how to do a soil type test is critical to understanding compaction risk. next is understanding why soils compact, what are the reasons. There are more than one. The soil type test will let you know where in the system the risk is most likely based. It can also tell you before you plant and so you can adjust before you get stuck

 

[Ecompost]

It feeds bacteria and bacteria only...bacteria is very present in every soil...fungi, protozoa, nematodes(root feeders, fungal and bacteria feeders) aren't in abundance as bacteria is. So brewing a complex tea is far more beneficial.(I think K.I.S.S when making teas keep it simple stupid) unless you can really test and judge if bacteria isn't present...which for 99.9% of us isn't an option...i say never. Their are far better options to safely implement bacteria into your soil!

All the information I've gathered about molasses is from school(soil science program) and Elaine Ingram. Personally I take Elaine Ingrams word as fact. She's incredibly brilliant and incredibly honest. If she says no...im inclined to believe the mother of soil science lol

That being said if you really want to and think you need some more bacteria...id keep the brew under 24 hours, honestly 16-18 hours, and id absolutely use an air pump that is more than enough for what I'm doing 70lpm+ for 3 gal brews. Wearing gloves and other protective equipment would be a must as well!

Watering with molasses mixed with water...yea for sure! I won't deny it's effects. I just think we should shift thinking away from it being in teas for the better of the community as a whole. Here is what i use with amazing effects and have never ran into diseases or pest.

Clone tea
1/4 cup EWC
(Steeped not brewed)

Veg Tea(16-18 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
2tsp kelp meal
1.5 mil fish hydroslate
(Swap kelp and alfalfa meal every other watering)

Flower Tea(24 hour brew)
1/4 cup EWC
1tsp kelp
1/4 tsp fish bone meal
(Swap bone meal for soft rock phosphate every other watering or if you want more bacteria swap for a high P guano and that'll do the trick)

in light of Tims model of bacteria dominance, surely BSM would be a go to tool?

brew more fungus, change the biome of bugs. more fungus, more fungus gnats, increased risk vector. Nothing is fool proof, and balance is hard to achieve when we don't truly understand what balance is and how to maintain it.
Most people over feed as encouraged by most nutrient companies, and now lots of super soil recipies, ergo lots of plants get lost to mold, in whole or part. You are just as likely to breed ecoli in a blood bone meal overdose, as you might be with BSM and BSM dont contain Mad Cow risk. https://www.organicconsumers.org/campaigns/mad-cow-usa
CEC overloading makes sick plants, no matter the input. Drops in Dissolved Oxygen will fundamentally alter the ratio of biology. This might just be that you live somewhere bloody hot and so getting water with healthy levels of Oxygen might be problematic to begin with.
Further, most animal manures add higher levels of Na to the system and this can be problematic overtime for all kinds of other more valued elements eg K and Mg. esp in arid environments
Rasing the pH of you media will change the biome of life active.