Stop The Bro Science Behind Molasses And Other Organic Stuff

[Ecompost]

I've read all of her info on the web, very good stuff. I don't fully agree, I have been using molasses for years in my Tea's, I believe it's more in the amount you use. I do use more in my veg tea's than flower and my plants never complain.View attachment 737823

word :-)

 

[Ecompost]

Oh Good! Just sometimes people think I come off a little rough lol but yes I love exchanging ideas and info!

you carry on mate, dont stop learning and discussing ever

 

[Ecompost]

I'm sure that the info on that site is the same I'm being taught at UCCS with my soil science program! So let's have that conversation! Just because someone does something and they say it works...doesnt mean it's at it's full potential...why add more bacteria heavy teas where bacteria is already in abundance? Why not implement complex teas? I'd agree using molasses in a soil that's lacking bacteria...but have you ever had your soil tested? If not why not have a complete tea to benefit it? Bacteria isn't the only thing you should worry about. Honestly nematodes are probably the most underrated part of soil...because let's be honest getting fungi and bacteria are easy easy easy! My only thing....complex teas. Which without a firm understanding of soil science molasses isn't going to brew complex teas. It's going to brew bacteria heavy teas... anaerobic or not...bacteria heavy.

complex soil includes sugars, or carbohydrates if you like, it is unavoidable in the search for balance. The key is understanding the overhead re nutrients such as N and so losses to the system per cycle, then inputs should be based on this amount in order to maintain peak OS without overloading on any one or multiple things.

 

[Ecompost]

so, what would a redneck like my self use with my micros/tea to supplement molasses for tea? i let them chill for 48 hours and use.

keep it simple yo!
interesting topic.. first time iv seen it talked about in a logical manor,most times it just someone saying its bro science, with no data to back up there arguments..

the problem with this silly bro science label is those banding it havent a fucking clue about how much money is spent on Organic research annually around the globe, because most of the money is diverted to non organic study where there is a product sell at the end of it. 0.6% in 2016 of the toal available research fund both public and private. Ergo you can see why people say there is no research, there isnt, politicians have ensured that much, esp in the USA who has chosen to go with the Monsanto approach

 

[Ecompost]

im with ya gnome,all trail and era here too,reading books never taught me nothing,field work has,,with elaine if you go back you will find she has preached the sermone several times to years later admit she wasnt correct,,this comes with field work

Word...
Go see what Urs Niggli got to say, that boy tells the truth about organics and so do we at BOX. His work comes from many many years of side by side real world study. What we need to do is urge our politicians to spend more money researching organics. Only via research and understanding will we close the yield gaps between organics and synthetics

 

[Ecompost]

I'm sure that the info on that site is the same I'm being taught at UCCS with my soil science program! So let's have that conversation! Just because someone does something and they say it works...doesnt mean it's at it's full potential...why add more bacteria heavy teas where bacteria is already in abundance? Why not implement complex teas? I'd agree using molasses in a soil that's lacking bacteria...but have you ever had your soil tested? If not why not have a complete tea to benefit it? Bacteria isn't the only thing you should worry about. Honestly nematodes are probably the most underrated part of soil...because let's be honest getting fungi and bacteria are easy easy easy! My only thing....complex teas. Which without a firm understanding of soil science molasses isn't going to brew complex teas. It's going to brew bacteria heavy teas... anaerobic or not...bacteria heavy.

the USA has the worst record of Bio organic research funding of any developed nation, second is the UK. This means your universities have been compromised, but if you would like to imagine what you are learning is the pinnacle, I guess you can and no one can say it aint really.

 

[Ecompost]

so, what would a redneck like my self use with my micros/tea to supplement molasses for tea? i let them chill for 48 hours and use.

keep it simple yo!
interesting topic.. first time iv seen it talked about in a logical manor,most times it just someone saying its bro science, with no data to back up there arguments..

brew teas with Bio Veg and KAMINO, you wont need anything else. :-)

 

[Ecompost]

Just don't use it in teas, don't need to add any simple sugars to teas, simple sugars just feed bacteria. I'd take whatever recipe you're using(keep it to 3 or 4 ingredients max) and brew and water!

I like the way you keep saying, "just feed bacteria" a critical part of soil mineral assimilation and release, as well as CEC buffering

 

[Ecompost]

im using basic micros that have some bat shit etc.. takes 2tbs to 4 gallon of water, and a tbs of molasses. im not brewing, maybe that is the issue im am not considering.
so, what would i feed them? i guess, that is what im asking; if not molasses.

whats wrong with your plants?

 

[Ecompost]

If your soil is correct...you shouldn't have to! Your plants releases exodates! Exodates are sugars, amino acids, and protein! They feed the gpod guys without feeding the bad guys!

can i just point out, soil is its own system, the base material I mean, on top of this is a living system, this can be bacterial, fungal and so on. Then there a plant system, and then there is us and we havent got a clue. Fungus when in a system, favor certain types of bacteria, I suspect these are the ones that fill the gaps in their own capacity, but we assume today that organization is based around the needs of the fungus not the plant. But then this is like a chicken and egg debate, is it soil fungus that rule the block, or plants?
in perfect environments its the plant i guess, but where is perfect and what is perfect?
Even Bacillus Subtilus secretes enzymes directly on to plant roots that fundamentally alter the plant. So, what is the difference in a cannabis plant that has been grown in a bacterial dominant media, versus one in a fungal dominant zone, what is the difference where ratios of life are 1:1?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099641

 

[Ecompost]

@Hpo777 What is you and your profs. take on pre-harvest flush? Obviously with inorganic salt based ferts you would want to. No till I would think you wouldn't need to, but what if you're using an organic bottled nute line with AACT's?

what are we flushing? Flushing is used to remove excess cations for example, not from the plant, but from the soil. If you are losing more salt than is being added, this is flushing. Flushing is for fixing errors, no matter the practice. its for solving salinity issues with soil systems, not plant systems. Flushing is where we try to flood excess cation salts down and away from the root zone, so we use enough clean low salt water to do this/ Where we have high water tables, we may not be able to flush anyway and so I would see the addition of bio char as a way to mitigate excess ions. Bio Organic system can hold more Cations than no biological by nature of the simple fact microbes store ions on their, mainly negatively charged bodies. this can prevent the need to flush, but equally it can delay our responses to over fertilization and this can prove fatal

 

[Organikz]

@Hpo777
I'm glad someone posted on this subject. I will tell you a little secret about a little plant called aloe Vera. The nutrition it holds makes molasses look like junk.

Blackstrap molasses~used Hugo
Aloe vera~Ferrari
•coot

 

[Ecompost]

@Hpo777
I'm glad someone posted on this subject. I will tell you a little secret about a little plant called aloe Vera. The nutrition it holds makes molasses look like junk.

Blackstrap molasses~used Hugo
Aloe vera~Ferrari
•coot

diversity is key, its not so much about trumping NPK, more about what is in the locker across the cycle. have we got a back up to a back up to a back up and so on. Diversity is key, what works bio actively for coots, might not work in alternate climates

 

[Organikz]

diversity is key, its not so much about trumping NPK, more about what is in the locker across the cycle. have we got a back up to a back up to a back up and so on. Diversity is key, what works bio actively for coots, might not work in alternate climates

Very true. I live in a white oak and conifer type state. Leaf mold and fungi are a problem to us. All I had to do was throw down a bit of compost in my yard. I don't even have to clean up dog poop. Its gone before I get to it. Just a little spot of mycellium left to show.

Threw out the Scott's and my yard looks better than ever.

 

[Ecompost]

Very true. I live in a white oak and conifer type state. Leaf mold and fungi are a problem to us. All I had to do was throw down a bit of compost in my yard. I don't even have to clean up dog poop. Its gone before I get to it. Just a little spot of mycellium left to show.

Threw out the Scott's and my yard looks better than ever.

yes i have all manner of fungal mass here building quickly. I will go get a picture of some spilling out of my soils where its been damp

 

[Organikz]

Oh yah red wrigglers are everywhere here. You can't pick up a rock without finding them. My back yard is similar to the videos i see of guys having to go out and harvest microbes and fungi. They're in awe and shock and I'm like....that mushroom stinks so bad I chop it up with a shovel and throw it over the fence...smells like rotten fish. I can walk out and picture 20 different mushroom and 20 different fungal colonies. What scared me is that too much fungi could be bad. Do they not accumulate sodium? I feel like too many dying back could cause a sodium bomb.

 

[oldskol4evr]

what seems to be interesting to me, is that bacteria have very little overhead to the trade in relationship between them and plant, where as typically when we discuss fungus and say P acquisition in low P media, there is usually some payment to be made, this may well be in alternate protein cascades via required additional gene insertion, and this might actually result in a lower yield than if we amended with liquid P inputs, perhaps not as low as it might otherwise have been the case without the fungus (or help), but perhaps the harvest has less flavor or some other cute human property, or it ripens faster, slower...

What i can say with certainty, I have a cannabis plant that I have been growing now all year,. I have cropped it already and its now going for another run. i didnt do anything special, i just neglected to remove the whole plant, this due to other commitments as priority.
On remembering i hadnt cleaned it up, I happened to make time to check it, this was about 3 weeks later and I noticed it had lots of new growth so i just left it. I read about hemp and its ability to regenerate despite a really heavy cropping, taking the plant back to a stump, similar to roses, or even many vines such as grape, so i left it going, well it, i have 2.
This plants are associated with 2 strains of glomus, having taken root samples and tested them to confirm. this may well be a result of changing environmental's over the course of time. its been quite cool here, and then blisteringly hot. Rhizophagus irregularis and Funneliformis mosseae in case you were wondering :) It just may be the ash i use in my soil mix has sounded the alarm and rallied the glomus?
I have periodically been adding several strains of PSB and KSB etc, alongside some bio control ento fungus, yeasts, trichoderma and bacteria, but of course I am not adding more Mycos.
I have seen drops in mineralization across the time, I suspect this is standard bacterial warfare and the odd low oxygen moment and related protozoa swarms. Quick top dress with BMP and Wormcast ...or batguano ...I aint Elaine now am I, and i quickly pick up the flaws without stress.

I have been using similar products to you, those i make of course, you really would be amazed at the difference in the land here already, only 6 months of BOX love. I have worms. I am the only person for miles around to have visible worms, mm from the surface in a country not known for its worm populations. I havent added these, they came as the soil tilth returned and we got a handle on the toxins through the insertion of fungal mulch.

Biggest headaches i have are from the past tenants of the land I am transforming here.
Existing practices here are a little behind the curve and so there is abundant sclerotinia and massive soil profile collapse.
I have been pre staging my planting here with Citric acid and Zinc AA chelate to help mitigate the hazard, but the near 30 years use of pesticide, herbicide and fungicide is making my life harder than it ought to be :)
I am manually removing plants across the farm estate, this way I understand why and how before i take away anything useful. I have found some really interesting stuff growing among the wild plants here, including ones that are anti lipid accumulation, anti psychotic, and some that release critical VOC's essential for ground beetle communications. In light of the importance of these ground beetles to the health of my system. I am leaving most of them in the ground and removing only the ones that are problematic for the tree growth.
I am replanting bio control plants and a border of predator bug host crops this winter. I will be laying the new wood chip paths at this stage also. next year i anticipate a lot less work :)
This is why i grow organic, its less work even if i do get the odd drop in yield, crop dependent.

by the way, Tim is a good dude, Elaine was a pioneer along with Jeff and her husband. Tim imo has very practically added to Elaine's work, as have now popular faces like Ray Archuleta, David Moore, Paul Stamets, Urs Niggli, Mike Harrington. Not to mention the thousands of unseen students around the world adding to the academic understanding which we as growers must decide the value of.

The new problem is how to measure for biology simply? The easiest way to know how well our microbes are working, is to monitor the CO2. Easy to use burst rate tests are available from other thought leaders such as Dr Rick Haney over at Solvita. I think we are right at the begining of this bio journey and so i tread carefully to say what microbes will and wont do. I am not sure we really understand fully the mechanisms.

dammit i knew i forgot something last payday,that tester from solvita,,explain more of this rotation of your method for the bettles bro,,are you saying instead of killing them ,your moving the crop in mind to another part of your farm were they benifiting the orange and olive trees,if so how,,im asking cause i done found 2 of them big ass japenese bettle asshole in my garden this year,and i dont want them,i live in snake country and digging around in them raised boxs and come face to hand with them big bastards will draw that hand back ,lmao something that big and ugly cant be good hahahah

 

[oldskol4evr]

Very true. I live in a white oak and conifer type state. Leaf mold and fungi are a problem to us. All I had to do was throw down a bit of compost in my yard. I don't even have to clean up dog poop. Its gone before I get to it. Just a little spot of mycellium left to show.

Threw out the Scott's and my yard looks better than ever.

now im almost sure i read on a bag of scotts product,here just recently that they have merged with mansoto,cant remember what ,think a compost,but read them bags good friend,,i dont want any part of mansato and bayer,i dont give a shit if it quadruples my shit,,when i come to them i stick with what i do,,bayer and there agent orange killed my dad ,so ya it personal

 

[Organikz]

now im almost sure i read on a bag of scotts product,here just recently that they have merged with mansoto,cant remember what ,think a compost,but read them bags good friend,,i dont want any part of mansato and bayer,i dont give a shit if it quadruples my shit,,when i come to them i stick with what i do,,bayer and there agent orange killed my dad ,so ya it personal

When I said I threw it I mean in the trash. The untreated seed itself holds the power of the 5 products and weekend long backbreaking labor. Scotts doesnt want you to know this.

 

[oldskol4evr]

When I said I threw it I mean in the trash. The untreated seed itself holds the power of the 5 products and weekend long backbreaking labor. Scotts doesnt want you to know this.

good bro,dont send your fortune to them dirty undercover bastards,,seen pic on other thread,,believe this or not bro,i had a place here were it was bare ass clay soil,,i covered the whole yard with rye grass,shit was so thick you could lay on it as a comfortable bed no shit,never reseeded it either,here in texas is will grow year round,in summer when it supose to die,if it is seeded out thick ,has so much moisture hold up in it continue to grow,got to mow twice a week though,if you keep it down to about 3in tall,nothing more enjoyable than walking bare foot on some soft grass,lmao