oldskol4evr
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dont buy any at all,,make them yourself,,check out korean natural farming,true organic nutrients,in my opinion .
oldskol4evr
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thermal heating from mama earth,,when its cold out,soil is warm vice versa in heat,it is possible to go another couple month in a green house with heat from the soil also mulch,and there are also bacteria formations that create heat too,,main thing would be grow a lot till it gets warmer,lol,with the thermal heating,you can also get your shit out earlier because the soil will be in transition of cold and hot and stuck in limbo due to outside temps and sunlight,raised beds also warm the soil quicker
Organikz
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It might be in your better interest to go to your local home brew store for beer. Depends how big your purse is. Malted barley is top. A light pilsner. Don't look at diastatic value...it means shit...all brewers know is amylase. Were looking for everything else also. Grind it right before use. Enzymes die or degrade quickly.
Irietime
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So is malted barley used veg threw flower? What do you add for flowering?
Organikz
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Malted barley top dressed 1/4 cup per plant once a week. Never changes. People don't understand how a plant dictates uptake. Amylase is found in your saliva. Its the first step in protein digestion.
Ecompost
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yes, malted grain is a useful tool when correctly applied. Coots has vast experience in such matters, new growers might be challenged with both dosing and timing. people are busy and often dont have time or space or desire to produce their own products, and I cant say anyone really knows more about what enzymes are being used in MG versus the HH product he references.
This isnt to say they ought not to try it.
Just beware, some of these products can create some mutations when used incorrectly and they are just as likely to unbalance a system if we dont first know what and where we are.
The biggest thing MJ growers of all methods need to get their heads around if they really want to grow good bud, is applying nutrients based on plant cycles and visible differentiation markers and not to simply follow a guide, albeit we supply a guide too, and this will give you a great result. if however you get the balance right, and learn nutrition is about diversity as much as it is about eating nutrient rich food, then you can really lift plants in to a professional level quickly. there are some monster MJ growers around the world, they really know the plants they grow and they apply nutrients and adds intuitively, just as they feed themselves.
Plants make many of the things added by both MG and HH enzymes for example, so we might argue we need only add those any plant cant make themselves and or isnt available otherwise on demand.
MG is just as much a one size fits all blanket as is the HH product i suspect. in an ideal world, modulations via healthy microbe interactions would replace any and all of the missing L-Aminos required by plants at any one time, but this requires conditions to be somewhat perfect over a time-frame that offers far too many risk vectors. There will always be a reach for the bottle option. If you dont have fresh MG, then a bottle of HH might be just the ticket to save a harvest.
i would argue this isnt true reference no NPK law in nature. NPK is essential to all life. Although it might be true that ones media contains sufficient to cater for a stable and fertile system, and so adding anything at all is poppycock, but what we can say is all of the above are naturally cyclical on a planetary level.
Nitrogen is part of a fixed bio-geochemical cycle, bookended by microbes which either fix or volatilize Nitrogen to maintain planetary balance, in doing so they generate both ionic N and requisite proteins as waste that our plants can enjoy. The microbes can use N2 as a base to decay organic matter, as fuel if you like to chow down on organic matter, malted grains if you like, to further replenish soil NPK ions which plants love and to regulate the dynamic mix of atmospheric gases that keep us all safe.
Phosphorous comes mainly from the weathering of mountains, where time and environment mean boulders become rocks, become pebbles, become sands; smashed ever smaller before finally becoming food for specialist microbes who use organic and mineral P forms, again converting this matter through the power of Nitrogen in to P2O5 for example
What we know also is that each time N cycles from air to soil and back to air, there is a loss and if we dont address this, there then will be deficit.
Its not the plants its the microbes that we need to pay with N if we are organic. We will always neeed to maintain our soil N if we are to maintain access to all forms of NPK etc held in all soils everywhere.
If we are growing plants in a space, we often need to not only boost the soil NPK for the microbes, we need plant ready NPK and we need it now. We often cant wait for organics to happen, we have to kick start the system in most cases or we miss the human timescales and there is loss which we feel in the pocket, in lost time and so on.
For example, where we have purchased pasteurized soils from stores, we may need to replace the biology in order to access the latent NPK tied up in the organic matter. We can do this with homemade or purchased inoculates, but if we are planting now too, we might have to get the NPK out so that the plants time line doesnt become impacted by an establishing soil community and its rate of conversion versus our plants needs.
When you buy BOX, you buy plant ready NPK etc and this fits with human/ plant time frames. All NPK has been part pre converted biologically, and then you buy the locker room of organic forms for sustainability, bio stimulants both plant and microbe. You buy Carbohydrates, Proteins, Fatty Acids and Gases. Inside of these groups is the NPK plants, soil systems and life needs to retain efficiency, replenish losses as part of natural bio geochemical cycles. You can also buy the biology itself and the organic acids and or soil proteins and carbs.
All the NPK in BOX is taken from that the planet provides, it has never been treated with any synthetics, it is not fabricated N which we now know has caused widespread eutriphication and soil loss, it is simply the N that already exists here on earth and has always.
Ecompost
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feed store, or online barley, oats, anything really
Organikz
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I'm talking numbers but I don't think you follow Coot's feeding methods. None of his amendments aim to N or P. N and P can be generated through enzymatic activity. The K isn't K per se more than carbon. Plants can survive from nucleotides and carbon matter. What I'm saying basically is you don't have to say oh I need nitrogen, better get some blood meal, get what I'm saying. It's not that simple.
Nucleotides are the building blocks of nucleic acids; they are composed of three subunit molecules: a nitrogenous base, a five-carbon sugar (ribose or deoxyribose), and at least one phosphate group. They are also known as phosphate nucleotides. A nucleoside is a nitrogenous base and a 5-carbon sugar.
Organikz
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This man is a genius. He basically cracked the code for recreating how plants fed themselves before we came along and said oh it needs this 3 number code and. Wtf is this 0-0-0? Nature doesn't play by our numbers. They have to slowly adjust atomic clocks by the millisecond. The earth doesn't even follow our calendar or time. Leap year also makes up for it. That's actually the purpose of leap year.
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Organikz
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He discovered the nucleus while NPK is discovering the atom. He has gone down a level. Idk how the hell one figures this out.
The funny thing is in no till the only deficiencies we get are NPK but it's because we aren't driving the enzymes of fresh soil. The worm castings and humus take over from there. The fix is always kelp meal tea or ewc.
The funny thing is in no till the only deficiencies we get are NPK but it's because we aren't driving the enzymes of fresh soil. The worm castings and humus take over from there. The fix is always kelp meal tea or ewc.
Ecompost
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as with any back up system, there is usually a trade off and so plants that have inadequate supplies of suitable forms of N, will not grow as well as those whom can access a pool at will.
It is in my opinion, better to maintain a healthy presence of both detectable CO2 and water soluble NPK in order to understand what your plant might be living with, rather than to try to second guess how compounds are interacting on the various levels within soil systems at any given moment.
I know plants use 17 key elements to conclude processes such as photosynthesis. i cant tell you when any plant is using xyz, how much etc and if it was recent N or stored N or amino N or.
OK i put this another way. What have you had to eat today? What is the sum total of compounds you have consumed, how many nutrients has your body used and how? Where has the excess gone, what is it doing?
its not that I dont follow his style, and of course I understand his methods and some of what he says is used by us with some variations that further simplify, and or add granularity to its application.
i do for example use certain characters of certain food groups to stimulate plant growth in ways that are less obviously NPK, but ultimately it is NPK that is happening, both in the kick starting of certain cascades and the energy therein required.
i do agree there is no such thing in nature as a perfect ratio of Ca to Mg for example or N to K and so on but, nitrogen is essential for cascades and so life,
Nitrogen is used by soil microbes to provide the things plants need. and by plants to do the things that make them stand up, collect light and so on, the very definition above shows where N is being used by organic life in one example. if we provided N from a carbohydrate source, we would cover the entire arrangement
it is not possible to grow a plant without Nitrogen being present, and plants grown in low P levels also suffer.
I agree, outside there is very little to worry about, there is little to no soil that would lack the access to nutrients, so long as the system itself and soil was of course healthy. coots tries simply to make healthy soil systems and these grow good plants. Anyone looking today at a forest might wonder how such production is possible, no one even applies MG :-)
like i said, its not for people to not try these things themselves, but for some, they are always going to want to eat out rather than cook themselves and in every instance, we should be honest about the data as well as we can be. They, users who want to buy bottles of xyz, should not be excluded from organic debate because they dont want to cook at home.
For me having lived Organics for 45 years plus on a commercial level as a farmer, too many people spend too much time trying to convince the world no one needs nutrients, or rebranding what they do as not being nutrients, and denying the simple reality, organic farming means less yield in many cases today. There is a new movement that suggests you dont need NPK forming, all the while they are making new ways to mask the creation of NPK by talking about chelates and amino acid complexes. I would argue this is failing to acknowledge planetary evolution.
Some people dont want to spend the time we might to study, to, test, observe, document, learn what compounds do what and in what measure and time. those that do can read your thoughts and others of course and decide. but organics goes up its own arse when it starts to talk like a GP/ Doctor. i am guilty of this also at times and try hard to make organics make sense to the widest number of people. Most BOX clients at least get interested in the ideas that its based on, and these are in no way dissimilar to Coots.
Honestly, many people dont want the inside of their posh over priced home to be over run with jars of stewing what not. many people live where its illegal to grow and anything attracting attention is a no go. I would argue suddenly this is a whole market that would never use coots methods, so like i always say, what resonates its whats best.
Nutrient bashing among the organic community is getting old quickly imo and most likely what people assume they are learning as wisdom to fight the corporatization of their plants, is actually whats already being sold and has been for years. Even if you follow Coots, you still got to spend money, time etc. net net whatever you choose to do is all good imo and sharing it is better because some people are going to dig it for sure.
As with any method to life, there are many routes to achieve a single objective.
MG supports fungal mass, and its usually fungal mass that is lacking in most plants i see. This is enough to tell you i like MG I hope. I aint bashing it Coots or you brother its good stuff and can add value when correctly applied as you have politely explained here :-)
Organikz
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There is N and P being made in the soil. Microbes carry DNA. As they consume one another, split, die etc nucleic and amino acids are released. Remember we also return the biomass to the soil. What was taken is returned with a small cut taken. The enzymes generated via the soil food web handle the rest.
Ecompost
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yes in an ideal world, of which we should at least strive towards.
Ecompost
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there is N in the air and in the soil and water, being used by microbes as fuel. it is Nitrogen, ergo things need and use Nitrogen, its not just in there, its fixed
Organikz
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Yessir. Exactly. Its in the soil life. Now we're just tapping into that. Thats it. I know obviously you have to start things off. Think about this coots soil mix is now high quality homemade vermicompost from leaf mold compost, comprised of feeding barley meal, neem (for its IPM qualities and positive effects on worms not nitrogen), and kelp meal (for its cytokinin and other benefits not potassium). Then he adds aeration and peat moss thats it. No amending.
Creating a food chain where your plant is at the top. You never hear him mention a target nutrient. Unless as all no till growers experience in fresh soil you hit a potassium or mag wall due to low soil microbe concentration. He is against targeting nutrients.
This isn't an easy task though. As you say some like convenience. The irony is all the research to understand why to keep it simple.
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Organikz
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Enzymes are catalysts the effect specific biological functions in humans, animals and plants. You can toss in fungi, bacteria, et al. in this discussion. For example vermicompost is a function of the enzymes in composting worms. The bacterial slime that worms ingest are converted to worm castings in the worm's digestive tract. Worms also exude specific enzymes into the food stock to trigger specific responses from microbes. A partnership if you will.
Almost every seed contains a range of shared enzymes - Amylase, Urease, Phosphatase, Chitinase, Protease, et al. Seed germination is 100% a function of enzymes having absolutely nothing to do with NPK or any other element. Seeds are encoded with these enzymes from the mother plant.
When we germinate a seed these enzymes are activated and other enzymes are altered by the seed itself from germination-inhibitors to ones that will insure the viability of the seedlings.
Where the differences come are the levels of specific enzymes and I'll use barley seeds as an example because there is a plethora of information from beer brewers, distillers (barley is what makes Scotch whiskey for example). Barley seeds contain a-amylase and b-amalyse which are enzyme that catalyses the hydrolysis of starch into sugars.
Enzymes are specific to a given function, in other words Urease has no effect on Chitin, Protein or Phosphorus which need Chitinase, Protease and Phosphatase for that function.
Corn is a good example as well because what you get from this grass seed are cytokinins. See if this helps answer your question about corn specifically...
Nature of Cytokinins
Cytokinins are compounds with a structure resembling adenine which promote cell division and have other similar functions to kinetin. Kinetin was the first cytokinin discovered and so named because of the compounds ability to promote cytokinesis (cell division). Though it is a natural compound, It is not made in plants, and is therefore usually considered a "synthetic" cytokinin (meaning that the hormone is synthesized somewhere other than in a plant). The most common form of naturally occurring cytokinin in plants today is called zeatin which was isolated from corn (Zea mays).
Cytokinins have been found in almost all higher plants as well as mosses, fungi, bacteria, and also in tRNA of many prokaryotes and eukaryotes. Today there are more than 200 natural and synthetic cytokinins combined. Cytokinin concentrations are highest in meristematic regions and areas of continuous growth potential such as roots, young leaves, developing fruits, and seeds (Arteca, 1996; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
History of Cytokinins
In 1913, Gottlieb Haberlandt discovered that a compound found in phloem had the ability to stimulate cell division (Haberlandt, 1913). In 1941, Johannes van Overbeek discovered that the milky endosperm from coconut also had this ability. He also showed that various other plant species had compounds which stimulated cell division (van Overbeek, 1941). In 1954, Jablonski and Skoog extended the work of Haberlandt showing that vascular tissues contained compounds which promote cell division (Jablonski and Skoog, 1954).
The first cytokinin was isolated from herring sperm in 1955 by Miller and his associates (Miller et al., 1955). This compound was named kinetin because of its ability to promote cytokinesis. Hall and deRopp reported that kinetin could be formed from DNA degradation products in 1955 (Hall and deRopp, 1955). The first naturally occurring cytokinin was isolated from corn in 1961 by Miller (Miller, 1961). It was later called zeatin. Almost simultaneous with Miller Letham published a report on zeatin as a factor inducing cell division and later described its chemical properties (Letham, 1963). It is Miller and Letham that are credited with the simultaneous discovery of zeatin. Since that time, many more naturally occurring cytokinins have been isolated and the compound is ubiquitous to all plant species in one form or another (Arteca, 1996; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
Biosynthesis and Metabolism of Cytokinins
Cytokinin is generally found in higher concentrations in meristematic regions and growing tissues. They are believed to be synthesized in the roots and translocated via the xylem to shoots. Cytokinin biosynthesis happens through the biochemical modification of adenine. The process by which they are synthesized is as follows (McGaw, 1995; Salisbury and Ross, 1992):
A product of the mevalonate pathway called isopentyl pyrophosphate is isomerized.
This isomer can then react with adenosine monophosphate with the aid of an enzyme called isopentenyl AMP synthase.
The result is isopentenyl adenosine-5'-phosphate (isopentenyl AMP).
This product can then be converted to isopentenyl adenosine by removal of the phosphate by a phosphatase and further converted to isopentenyl adenine by removal of the ribose group.
Isopentenyl adenine can be converted to the three major forms of naturally occurring cytokinins.
Other pathways or slight alterations of this one probably lead to the other forms.
Degradation of cytokinins occurs largely due to the enzyme cytokinin oxidase. This enzyme removes the side chain and releases adenine. Derivitives can also be made but the pathways are more complex and poorly understood.
Cytokinin Functions
A list of some of the known physiological effects caused by cytokinins are listed below. The response will vary depending on the type of cytokinin and plant species (Davies, 1995; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
Irietime
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@Organikz @Ecompost really appreciate all the knowledge y'all are throwing out.
MIMedGrower
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Excellent post!
I would like to know where micronutrients come in. There is far more testing going on with soil content from different regions where better pot tends to come from. And tests showing things like iron promotes thc and manganese promotes cbd have come up.
I understand the soil web but don't really see that without supplementing pretty much everything you could reliably get the results I look for inside and in flower pots.
I cheat and grow as long as I can water only with an organic base soil and add nutrients when it is depleted. I do this as I believe plants are using more than the accepted 17 elements to grow to their potential. And that soluble nutrients in the ground are the reason there is more growth in some places than other.
a whole array of trace elements are instantly available in seaweed. The hormones are a bonus.
And humic acid is a natural chealater anyway so we are still feeding plants soluble nutrients the whole time we water in organic growing.
Organikz
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If you start with home made vermicompost as is recommended you have everything you need already. The kelp does help to keep the soil mineralized. That's the bonus in this case. The main goal is growth hormone.
Let me put it this way josh steensland is growing water only on his 5th cycle. Never added anything except innoculant and he's pulling 1g per watt. Nothing is ever lost besides a little escaped co2 or nitrogen that gets away. However as I said when cytokinosis takes place DNA is created.
What about carnivorous plants. What NPK do they need? I'm trying to explain that the NPK value is false. Its not what a plant really needs. Look up the Cornell mix. It was made before commercial fertilizer companies invented NPK.
I'm explaining that this is man's way of trying to understand a plants needs. It works but trim the fat and you have these amino acids and nucleic acids. Protein compounds.
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MIMedGrower
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Carnivorous plants dissolve the nutrients and absorb them.
And I do understand there is way more available in the soil through the natural method. And there are plenty of no till growers out there.
But if you add fresh compost. You are adding fertilizer.
Got a link to the consistent 1g per watt?
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