What's The Hottest New Organic Fert Line!!

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MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

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My family are not botanists. I am the only grower. They are scientists and medical doctors.

I only mentioned them so you would know the educational environment I grew up in.

You mention reading 50 papers @Organikz . Try 50 books. I'm working on it.

I was not trying to argue. I came in inquisitive. You keep preaching but with limited and agenda filled info. I already know the science. What I have not seen except outside is great results. You have a thread about inputs. You say you do it for the aminos and hormones. The truth is you are feeding nutrients to the plants.

I need facts and real trials. And I said if you show results I will have to listen.

Please stop alerting me. And you won't have to feel the need to argue.

And @firstcitizen you are right and I agree with you. However, the info shared must be correct and not arguable if the poster expects agreement.

Conjecture based on science is not science. But it tends to be perceived as a method on these forums. And sold as fact.

Smoking now. :-)
 
Organikz

Organikz

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My family are not botanists. I am the only grower. They are scientists and medical doctors.

I only mentioned them so you would know the educational environment I grew up in.

You mention reading 50 papers @Organikz . Try 50 books. I'm working on it.

I was not trying to argue. I came in inquisitive. You keep preaching but with limited and agenda filled info. I already know the science. What I have not seen except outside is great results. You have a thread about inputs. You say you do it for the aminos and hormones. The truth is you are feeding nutrients to the plants.

I need facts and real trials. And I said if you show results I will have to listen.

Please stop alerting me. And you won't have to feel the need to argue.

And @firstcitizen you are right and I agree with you. However, the info shared must be correct and not arguable if the poster expects agreement.

Conjecture based on science is not science. But it tends to be perceived as a method on these forums. And sold as fact.

Smoking now. :)
Like I said you don't understand that I'm feeding the soil. Building microbial life to the best balance possible. The system then does the fine tuning. Not so much feeding as driving microbes to create enzymatic reactions.

This is called Building soil. Hence build a soil...

I presented science as asked....what else...
 
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MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

17,190
438
Like I said you don't understand that I'm feeding the soil. Building microbial life to the best balance possible. The system then does the fine tuning. Not so much feeding as driving microbes to create enzymatic reactions.

This is called Building soil. Hence build a soil...

I presented science as asked....what else...

"Not so much feeding as driving microbes......."

Your words.

We are all only feeding the soil. Read about cation exchange in different mediums.

You only present info you know that seems to support your agenda.

And have ignored all of my points.

Like I said. When you have a full understanding of plant science and container gardening then you might get better responses from experienced knowledgeable growers.

Until then you are a no till noob hobbyist.

I have met families that have had organic pot farms for decades.

I will ignore future responses. It takes time to learn all of this stuff. I studied for quite a few years before I started growing. And I have had a lifetime "working" in the cannabis industry with other growers since the 80's.

You think I have not had discussions with an organic wanna be hippy grower before? Do you really think because organics has become popular in cannabis cultivation that the info is new and you have discovered something special?

Learn about all methods and science involved. Grow consistently and show excellent results. Then chime in and try to help and teach.

Until then you are just copying words. Anyone can read a textbook. Few really bother to learn.

Sorry. You have managed to test my patience.

I will back off moderators. I know it's enough already.
 
Organikz

Organikz

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"Not so much feeding as driving microbes......."

Your words.

We are all only feeding the soil. Read about cation exchange in different mediums.

You only present info you know that seems to support your agenda.

And have ignored all of my points.

Like I said. When you have a full understanding of plant science and container gardening then you might get better responses from experienced knowledgeable growers.

Until then you are a no till noob hobbyist.

I have met families that have had organic pot farms for decades.

I will ignore future responses. It takes time to learn all of this stuff. I studied for quite a few years before I started growing. And I have had a lifetime "working" in the cannabis industry with other growers since the 80's.

You think I have not had discussions with an organic wanna be hippy grower before? Do you really think because organics has become popular in cannabis cultivation that the info is new and you have discovered something special?

Learn about all methods and science involved. Grow consistently and show excellent results. Then chime in and try to help and teach.

Until then you are just copying words. Anyone can read a textbook. Few really bother to learn.

Sorry. You have managed to test my patience.

I will back off moderators. I know it's enough already.
Is this shit for real...man you are very confused. If we all were utilizing CEC ph up and down would not exist. You're good at sounding like you know what the hell you're talking about. You even actually got a like from it

Do you get runoff? Do you flush? CEC doesn't mean Jack
 
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Organikz

Organikz

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Btw what element has the highest CEC? humus...so....wouldnt no till where the humus layer is built over time until you have pure worm castings be the best utilization of CEC. Its also why we use sequestered carbon.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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dont buy any at all,,make them yourself,,check out korean natural farming,true organic nutrients,in my opinion .
we have been making nutrients using fermentation techniques learned in the far east for many years. We are pretty close to any locally made nutrients, and we take away the headaches of trying to source many of the items required. But, I totally agree, as someone who makes his own nutrients, there is little better than resonant help.
As a further, think locally about KNF, sure use the practices, these are static, but the components? understanding what is being targeted in the use of the plants etc they recommend, and find a local alternative.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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There is N and P being made in the soil. Microbes carry DNA. As they consume one another, split, die etc nucleic and amino acids are released. Remember we also return the biomass to the soil. What was taken is returned with a small cut taken. The enzymes generated via the soil food web handle the rest.
Ok yes, Nitrogen is in the air, its is not in plant form, nor is it when its in many of its pre existing organic forms.
Microbes must convert it, but N also converts because of weather, Lightening etc where its NH4+ and NO3- no longer N2 or other.
As microbes convert N, they need to be fueled themselves and they need to use organic acids and proteins themselves which they get from C and H and so on in order to extract the fuel from the environment.. So microbes in soil, in many cases use some of the N, either that already in soils as decaying biomass, or that in the air, water and so on, or they use minerals like Iron which they convert to amino forms of N.
No N means no mineralization, means no plant can feed itself on organics and so N defs occur. its like me trying to eat a thanksgiving turkey whole, on my own, with no knife or fork. it aint happening, it will need to be cut up in to smaller units of turkey right? Microbes take the turkey, and make it in to a nugget.

Excess N is spilled from microbes as waste, or by way of biological warfare and predation, ionic N, proteins (amino acids) and so on, this is the N our plants might use in nature, but they also use the amino acids created by assimilation of N.
As each round of N is used in our systems and excess accumulates, its is further transformed by another set of microbes whom convert this ionic N and so on, back in to a gas, where it balances that taken from the air, so providing a part of the puzzle of balancing dynamic atmospheric gases. Where we over use N we get too much for the systems needs and so we get n based pollution events. these are something we really ought to have learned to avoid by now.

All of this sways on the local conditions and so any and all of this might fail at any one point in time given unfavorable conditions that may well be outside of our control. For example, what is the operating range of bacillus subtilus? How many other Bac Sub types exist and what is the sum total OSR?
Might we be buying things that dont stand a chance of working in light of how we grow?

Amino acids are just the latest thing to come out of the universities that are themselves funded by big Ag. And on them, I wanted to make some things clear, esp about the relationship between AA and N. This post is confusing otherwise. Plants need Nitrogen, do not stop using sources of this.

But here is some data on AA and why i use it in combinations, including an AAC of N directly.

Every plant like any organism needs certain components for growth over and above soil, sun, rain and air. The basic component of living cells is Proteins, with building block material, Amino Acids. Proteins are formed by sequence of Amino Acids.
Plants synthesize Amino Acids from the Primary elements, the Carbon and Oxygen obtained from air, Hydrogen from water in the soil, forming Carbon Hydrate by means of photosynthesis and combining it with the Nitrogen which the plants obtain from the soil, leading to synthesis of amino acids, by collateral metabolic pathways. Only L-Amino Acids are part of these Proteins and have metabolic activity.
The requirement of amino acids in essential quantities is well known as a means to increase yield and overall quality of crops.
The application of amino acids for foliar use is based on its requirement by plants in general and at critical stages of growth in particular. Plants absorb Amino Acids through Stomas and is proportionate to environment temperature.

Amino Acids are fundamental ingredients in the process of Protein Synthesis.
About 20 important Amino Acids are involved in the process of each function. Studies have proved that Amino Acids can directly or indirectly influence the physiological activities of the plant.
Amino Acids are also supplied to plant by incorporating them into the soil. It helps in improving the microflora of the soil thereby facilitating the assimilation of nutrients.
Foliar Nutrition in the form of Protein Hydrolysate (Known as Amino Acids Liquid) and foliar spray provide ready made building blocks for Protein synthesis but are not always easy to use in blooming plants subject to mold risk..

Proteins have a structural function, metabolic function (enzymes), a transport function and a stock of Amino Acids function. Only L - Amino Acids are assimilated by plants. D - Amino Acids are not recognized by the enzymatic locus and therefore can not participate in protein synthesis.This fact actually means lab AAC is more effective then organic AAC. Although this statement needs to be taken lightly, we dont truly understand the magic.

Stress such as High temperature, Low humidity, Frost, Pest attack, Hailstorm, Floods have a negative effect on plant metabolism with a corresponding reduction in crop quality and quantity.
The application of Amino Acids before, during and after the stress conditions supplies the plants with Amino Acids which are directly related to stress physiology and thus has a preventing and recovering effect.

Plants synthesize carbohydrates by photosynthesis, Low photosynthesis rate implies a slow growth leading to death of the plant, chlorophyll is the responsible molecule for the absorption of the light energy.
Glycine and Glutamic Acid are fundamental metabolites in the process of formation of vegetable tissue and chlorophyll synthesis. These Amino Acids help to increase chlorophyll concentration in the plant leading to higher degree of photosynthesis. Or greener plants :)


Stomas are the cellular structures that control the hydric balance of the plant, the macro and micronutrient absorption and the absorption of gases.

The opening of the stomas is controlled by both external factors (light, humidity, temperature and salt concentration) and internal factors (amino acids concentration, abcisic acid etc.)

The Stomas are closed when light and humidity are low & temperature and salt concentration are high, when stomas are closed photosynthesis and transpiration are reduced (low absorption of macro & micronutrients) and respiration is increased (Carbohydrate destruction)
In this case the metabolic balance of the plant is negative. Catabolism is higher than anabolism. This implies slow metabolism and stops the plant growth.
L-glutamic acid acts as a cytoplasm osmotic agent of the “guard cells”. Thus favouring the opening of the stomas.

Amino Acids have a chelating effect on micronutrients. When applied together with micronutrients, the absorption and transportation of micronutrients inside the plant is easier.
This effect is due to the chelating action and to the effect of cell membrane permeability.
L - Glycine & L - Glutamic Acid are known to be very effective chelating agents.

Amino Acids are precursors or activators of phytohormones and growth substances. L - Methionine is precursor of ethylene and of growth factors such as Espermine and Espermidine, which are synsthesized from 5 - Adenosyl Methionine. L - Tryptophan is precursor for Auxin synthesis. L - Tryptophan is used in plants in L - Form only. L - Tryptophan is available only if hydrolysis of Protein is carried out by enzyme. If hydrolysis is carried out by acid or alkali, as done in many European countries, L - Tryptophan is destroyed.
L - Arginine induces synthesis of flower and fruit related hormones.

Pollination is the transport of pollen to the pistil, so fecundation and formation of the fruit is possible. L - Proline helps in fertility of Pollen. L - Lysine, L - Methionine, L - Glutamic Acid are essential amino acids for pollination. These amino acids increase the pollen germination and the length of the pollinic tube.

The equilibrium of the microbial flora of the agriculture soil is a basic question for a good mineralisation of the organic matter and also for a good soil structure and fertility around the roots.
L-methionine is precursor growth factors that stabilize the cell walls of the microbial flor.


L - Glutamic Acid & L - Aspartic Acid, by transamination give rise to the rest of the amino acids.
L - Proline & Hydroxy Proline act mainly on the hydric balance of the plant strengthening the cellular walls in such a way that they increase resistance to unfavourable climatic conditions.
L - Alanine, L - Valine & L - Leucine improve quality of fruits.
L - Histidine helps in proper ripening of fruits.

I hope this helps.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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Excellent post!

I would like to know where micronutrients come in. There is far more testing going on with soil content from different regions where better pot tends to come from. And tests showing things like iron promotes thc and manganese promotes cbd have come up.

I understand the soil web but don't really see that without supplementing pretty much everything you could reliably get the results I look for inside and in flower pots.

I cheat and grow as long as I can water only with an organic base soil and add nutrients when it is depleted. I do this as I believe plants are using more than the accepted 17 elements to grow to their potential. And that soluble nutrients in the ground are the reason there is more growth in some places than other.


a whole array of trace elements are instantly available in seaweed. The hormones are a bonus.

And humic acid is a natural chealater anyway so we are still feeding plants soluble nutrients the whole time we water in organic growing.
:-)
you are using your skill to maintain soil fertility mate, this is the very essence of sustainable gardening. its knowing when your system needs help, then how much help, never over doing it. Yes its true, synthetic Nitrogen destroys soil carbon and so reduces the potential larder of AA, but if this is in a container, I wouldnt worry too much. I would worry more about over using any N, organic and synthetic.
If we had focused on it, we would already have mastered how to get enough N from the existing N cycle not to make more, but theres no money in this model right?

I am full organic here, with organic AACs for granular adjustments and Organic acids and soil carbohydrates to balance the systems when i put them under lots of pressure, as we do as farmers looking for a profit from our effort., These tend to be after some weather events which might otherwise push whats needed away from my root zones, or otherwise introduce parts I might wish to control.

Micronutrients are crucial to the well being of the end product. these elements used in the tiniest of fractions, are the ones triggering many of the plants systems and functions which we enjoy. taste, hit, duration, scent and so on.
Adding kelp meal is a good way to boost minerals, I also use a bacterial sea water application in event of shortfalls that need near instant adjustment. EWC is another great booster for soil aminos.

I use humates lots here, we have high levels of carbonates that otherwise mean i struggle to access all micros. I do sometimes find adding this with Kelp is helpful. Virginia Tech did a study on using both :-)
 
Organikz

Organikz

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@Ecompost
Thanks for all that info. I might throw that one in my big ass PDF. I agree that it's a balancing act. I know you've read up on nutrient cycling. I agree that it's a well choreographed process. You must utilize a good mix of legumes and dynamic accumulators along with mulch in order to hold onto that nitrogen. Any escaping nitrogen will get grabbed up by those legumes and mulch. This is the purpose of clover.

You stated that something can't be made from nothing. Its true. However here's what Einstein said based off of what you said.

"No matter or energy can be created nor destroyed, only transferred."

Is this sort of growing for everyone? Hell no,. You need to understand soil biology, soil nutrient mobility, and soil solution chemistry.
 
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Ecompost

Ecompost

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I am still a firm believer in MBP. The water only was just an example it can be done. The worms eat trimmings and shade leaves that die off. It isn't driving max potential. I agree. The MBP is a great food source for worms and in fact is like alfalfax10 in the fact of increasing cytokinosis in them as well. As you cam see it also supplies what NPK factor is truly after...these nucleic acids. Look at nucleic acids as the filet cut of a cow in reference to the target NPK feed.
messing about with growth hormones didnt do the chicken industry any favours, nor did it help beef farmers or dairy farmers, now these people have fucked up vets bills for abnomral growths and puss balls in cartons of milk. I just think we need to really understand what GH are and do before we set about trying to increase them.
Plants make many of there own aminos, but they need Nitrogen to set about this, no one is pulling n from out of a hat. It is simply N that is all about us always
 
cannabeans

cannabeans

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The recent posts by you and Eco bring me back to the point I was trying to get across in your other thread ..What you are doing here is like playing a game of chess. Its involves strategy and knowing what move to make next. I sincerely commend your effort and greatly appreciate your posts and threads....@Ecompost too!
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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@Ecompost
Thanks for all that info. I might throw that one in my big ass PDF. I agree that it's a balancing act. I know you've read up on nutrient cycling. I agree that it's a well choreographed process. You must utilize a good mix of legumes and dynamic accumulators along with mulch in order to hold onto that nitrogen. Any escaping nitrogen will get grabbed up by those legumes and mulch. This is the purpose of clover.

You stated that something can't be made from nothing. Its true. However here's what Einstein said based off of what you said.

"No matter or energy can be created nor destroyed, only transferred."

Is this sort of growing for everyone? Hell no,. You need to understand soil biology, soil nutrient mobility, and soil solution chemistry.
if energy is being transfered in to a state we cant capitalize on, what is the point? I am not saying we destroy per say, rather we convert in to something less favorable for us, why would we knowingly do this?
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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We have our moments but @MIMedGrower and i see through different opinions. My mom was a hippie ornamental tree nursery greenhouse manager. His family was botanists.

So you can see the preprogrammed thinking differs. I'm an open minded day tripper. He's a scientist in need of hard copy. However science is still opinion based on observation. Science has been disproved and altered time and time again especially regarding nature. Is the earth flat? Does the sun revolve around the earth? That big bright thing in the sky wont come up unless i sacrifice a virgin. Don't cling to ideas. It's not always that simple.

Masanobu mocks scientist as they focus on single brush strokes to the masterpiece we call nature.
i dont think mocking anyone is that helpful. i like Masa but I dont enjoy the stupidity of mocking people whose nature it is to detail the minute and so fail to focus on a bigger image. if my essay is how does bacillus subtilus impact root enzyme activity and nitrogen uptake in tomatoes, it would be a waste of my time to consider what else is occurring. I would merely try to answer the question presented, not the one about god.
if we as readers of data cant put what is finite, back in to a larger picture without mocking the authors, than i argue the flaw is with us and that Masa was likely just pissed off that his ideas dont have as much sway or impact as those formed in the bordellos of new learning.
Its not what i expect from people claiming to be thoughtful and it puts me off when people start a debate with a mocking tone. No wonder his books never sold more than a few thousand copies. What is the fucking point in reading words that say this much? i dont give a shit about anyones opinion, rather i just want facts, honest facts whatever they are, and where possible proof that others can interpret
 
Organikz

Organikz

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if energy is being transfered in to a state we cant capitalize on, what is the point? I am not saying we destroy per say, rather we convert in to something less favorable for us, why would we knowingly do this?
I'm not following. The clover will also capture atmospheric nitrogen and put it into the soil. We always want reserves in the tank. Clover will also trade nitrogen for phosphorus in the form of carbohydrates via exudates.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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I'm not following. The clover will also capture atmospheric nitrogen and put it into the soil. We always want reserves in the tank. Clover will also trade nitrogen for phosphorus in the form of carbohydrates via exudates.
this depends on levels of Ca. Without relevant ca levels, the clover can not bridge the N made to the clays and so net net it all gets lost through volatilization. Insufficient P in the system will fail clover anyway.
 
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