HOW TO WATER COCO FOR BEST RESULTS.

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Bottom feeding coco seems incredibly odd to me. It's pretty universal that watering to run off is a necessity, I'm not sure how that is actually achieved in this situation. For the same reason we discard the runoff as not to spread pathogens. I wont even let the pots touch the saucer, I've used pot elevators for years.
 
soultouch

soultouch

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Bottom feeding coco seems incredibly odd to me. It's pretty universal that watering to run off is a necessity, I'm not sure how that is actually achieved in this situation. For the same reason we discard the runoff as not to spread pathogens. I wont even let the pots touch the saucer, I've used pot elevators for years.
using pot elevators is a great idea where you want to ensure maximum air pruning and never want your roots to touch a dirty common bench. Dr Coco uses a similar double saucer method to catch the leachate in the bottom most saucer just to measure leachate pH and ppms before that waste is drained off. It is indeed a brilliant concept. Professor Carl Whitcomb designed a stepped pyramid air pruning 4 inch pot in the late 1980s that is probably the most optimal small container ever designed. When a 4 inch roots hits air and burns back, branch roots erupt along the previous 4 inches and create a fibrous non circling root system. As much as one may be tempted to use a deeper pot with the same design, Whitcomb points out that if an 8 inch deep were used instead of a 4 inch pots that all this root branching would occur in the bottom 4 inches of the 8 inch pot and the upper 4 inches would not be exploited until the lower zone were first filled with roots. This is one reason growers generally get better results by transplanting up at least one or 2 times during the whole grow.
Even the common use of fabric grow bags employs the principles of either root trapping and/or air pruning to great advantage. I love air pruning and first employed the use of mesh bags in the early 1980s, before the nonwoven bags were even commercially available. This sub irrigation method is simply another approach to root pruning and moisture control in the container media. It does run extra risk of inviting a root rot pathogen, but there are several ways to mitigate or even eliminate these potential pathogens. There are at least 2 commercially available sub watering systems that many cannabis growers use. The AutoPot and the OctaPot. The AutoPot design hinges on these clever 2 stage float valve that allows a 1 inch deep container to completely drain or 1/16 inch layer of water left before the vaccuum pressure is broken on the lower valve and the reservoir then floods till the upper float valve mechanism shuts of the water level. The OctaPot manual system has a floating stick gauge that alerts the grower when the water has dropped into the red zone and then grower adds water. The automated version employs a tall feed solution reservoir which constantly tops off a Master Float reservoir which then feeds all the individual plant saucers which flood to the level that the master reservoir is flooded. Super cheap mini floats for $5 can be also be used for individual saucers in a DIY scenario. Hundreds of youtube videos on DIY versions of self watering planters exist. Some containers employ a suspended mesh deck above a reservoir and use a capillary mat or wick of some kind to lift the water to the plant root base Capillary matting has upper flow limits and for plants that use a lot of water such as cannabis and tomatoes. Others use media substrate feet that extend into the reservoir to wick water up, One could also set a fabric bag filled with media and both the bag and the media will wick up the water. If most of the bag sitting in water is too water saturated and you wish more air flow, the fabric bag can be lowered onto an inverted mesh pot which will lift the center of the bag above the water line allow for increased drainage and air exchange while the perimeter of the bag descends back into the solution. There are dozens of tweaks to these scenarios, but it is possible to engineer a system in which the vertical wicking of water is highly controlled and even the choice of media can ensure optimal levels of water and air throughout the profile. Using a gradient of particle sizes and a choice of hydrophobic or hydrophillic properties it is entirely possible to create a soil space where water and air are more evenly distributed than in any system where a container filled with either a single component or a homogenous mix fills the entire container. A 60/40 mix may overall have optimal airspace starting 2 inches above the bottom of the pot, but it may be slightly too dry for the upper 3 inches of the media. I am just making these numbers up, but i am going to use a laboratory grade moisture probe to actually measure the WHC at various depths in the media. I am going to speculate that if the bottom 3 inches of the container used a water absorbing coarser material with fewer fines that airspace would improve in the lower part of the container and that the upper dry zone of the container could be made wetter by using a finer particle size material. Of course, such a layer cake gradient media fill would almost certainly require only sub watering because any abrupt soil layer will at least temporarily perch water at each boundary interface as water drains downward from a top watering. Even coarse gravel over sand will temporarily flood the entire gravel zone before the water begins to seep into the sand. I know this sounds counter intuitive but i have read dozens of papers and seen dozens of actual demonstrations in clear pots where this fact of physics was proven repeatedly.

So, you are correct that there is no runoff in this system. In fact i use a constant or near constant water level to WATER root prune instead of AIR prune. One can also use entrapment or constriction to root prune or heat prune or chemical prune such as using copper hydroxide treated nursery pots, copper mesh, a concentrated peroxide solution which literally oxidizes the root surfaces that it contacts. Manually pruning is also exploited but the tearing injuries to plant tissue is an open invitation to invading organisms
If too many roots grow through the bag and become water roots but i need to transplant up into a larger pot, rather than tear off the roots, i would either drain the water then air prune or chemical prune the roots with a stronger solution of hydrogen peroxide so entry points of infection would be reduced.

Large orchards grown on drained swamp land use control boards on field canals to control the water table height. Some of these systems date back over 200 years. Your mother may have watered her clay pot by simply adding water to the saucer, tand commercially available Wicking pots have been available for over 2 decades. some Kratky methods grow an entire crop floating on a single reservoir of never replenished water. So it is possible, I have grown thousands of pots of pampas grass, tomatos, beets and chard in 3 to 6 month long experiments as well going back over 30 years. For a crop cycle that is often less than 3 months, a sub irrigated system is almost fool proof.

A recirculating system will contaminate all plants where a sub irrigated system will only contaminate those plants which share a reservoir. Any pathogen or algae can be handled using a proactive bio control, or ozonated water or hydrogen peroxide just poured into the saucer to control any algae. Any commercial grow that uses recirculated water needs to provide bio designed filtration plus inline UV, ozone or peroxide injection or some similar type technologies.

I just harvested a plant that was 1 year 9 months old just to see how long it would last before any damage. I finally got what appears to be a slow dropping of leaves and indeed there is some soft rot starting on the lower trunk where the "bark was cracked and wounded" when i was wrangling the 4 foot plant around that was stuck in the scrog grid.

For those people who find themselves manually watering 10 to 14 x a day, if they put a saucer under the plant, the runoff water will be used up in under an hour, but they may only have to water 8x a day but there would be zero waste if you wanted. However any wet dry irrigation cycling in a sub watered system increase the risk of drowning Moist Air or Terrestrial roots. When these white roots die back, discolor and begin to rot and at the very least some saprophytic organism is now consuming this dead tissue. Some rhizosphere product in the sub water may insure that a more beneficial organism is doing the feeding because even an out of control pathogenic bacteria or fungi can result in a pathological consequence for a dead root and the host plant. Outright pathogens such as Pythium or Fusarium if introduced will most certainly lead to death if not mitigated in some fashion.



The most probable way of introducing a root rot pathogen in a sub watered system is by letting the reservoir dry out. When this happens roots will grow to bottom of pot and then potentially drown upon a future flooding ... although many cannabis strains can adapt and grow more hydro like roots. If you start with a pathogen free media, you can easily outlast a 12 week window, if you keep the individual plant reservoir constantly or cyclically flooded frequently enough. You use the water to prune or discourage the roots continuously, Only those roots whose morphology convert to grow hydro will venture into the area. For plants that hate wet feet these roots will simply never grow into the overly saturated zone. Now to compensate for this PWT Perched Water Table or Saturated zone simply increase the height of the pot by at least the depth of the water level or better still to the height of the water level plus the perched water table level in the media. For an example lets say you are using a coco media without sub irrigation and if you used an accurate enough water moisture probe determined that the bottom 2 inches of the coco was overly wet everytime you watered but since it drains fast enough and cannabis is vigorous enough, it usually worked out but still NOT OPTIMAL. Now lets say you use a taller grow bag by 2 inches like a 12 inch tall bag vs a 10 inch bag. In the 10 inch bag, there is 8 inches of more favorably conditioned media but in the 12 inch bag there is still a 10 inch depth of not overly saturated soil for the roots to explore. many growers hate tall pots, the plants fall over and they have to water more often than the same volume of substrate in a shallower container. Growers adapt to their materials and environments as well and since cannabis is a vigorous grower, whatever works for people is something they will probably just keep doing, but it may or may not be scientifically optimal or some other issues may have to be adjusted for or compensated for.

People can grow in straight water. Of course lettuce can grow in static water with Dissolved Oxygen aka DO as low as 1/2 part per million. As oxygen in the atmosphere is about 20.3%, the partial pressure of oxygen at sea level (1 atm) is 0.203 atm. Thus the amount of dissolved oxygen at 100% saturation at sea level at 20° C is 9.03 mg/L . Even with air bubblers it is difficult to exceed 13 percent but under some lab conditions using venturis or ozone injection or peroxide this can be upped supposedly to 50 ppm. Standard DO instruments top out at 20 ppm whereas regular air is 200,000 ppm oxygen. Even the most poorly drained greenhouse media is probably at least close to 10% Airspace = 100,000 ppm oxygen so even using an airstone under a regular fabric pot in a drain to waste will probably lead to increase yields when someone actually tests it out. Let us imagine a grower using a pot size and mix where he waters once every 3 days, chances are the mix is really too wet for the entire first day so an airstone below the bag might provide optimal o2 immediately but many only need to run for 4 to 8 hours. This is a future experiment on my task list. A simpler solution is too place and inverted pot in the center of the bag before filling with media. Professor Kratky use a full gallon pot upside down for this but loved my idea of using an inverted Mesh cup {optimal size to be determined] sleeved in pantyhose to provide even greater Air Flow and eliminating the zone in the container where the media always verges on being overly wet. I just kicking out some observations on the whole water Air space interaction and many viable approaches and tweaks. Sorry to run on so long
 
Mr.GreenthumbOG

Mr.GreenthumbOG

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I may have to skim that again😂
Some solid info.
I use hydroton in place of Perlite in my coco.
2 inches at the bottom. 2 inches at the top.
And a few scattered in between. Reusable👍
I suck up all the waste with a shop vac.
 
soultouch

soultouch

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Imo it leaves residual salt build up and needs to be top fed every so often to clear that out. I guess if someone flooded it until the waterline reached the top of the media it would eliminate that issue but I think its just easier to top feed than try and set that up???

Never done it so take this with a grain of salt.
Great thread here AquaMan and great solid, detailed advice and insights. I found myself watering my 1 gallon coco perlite girls as often as 1x per hour during lights on and i was seeing irreversible damage if i waited 3 or 4 hours. I was mystified by all the reports that people watered as much as 4x per day in coco or coco mixes. You have corroborated my own experience. I had fertilizer damage when i reached 1200 or so ppm so i backed off but because i employ sub watering as well as top watering, it may be that like hydro, the ec does not have to be so high as a top watered mix because the roots can easily find nutrient water when they are sitting in water and floating ions can easily find roots when they can dissolve and float in solution. In fact, i can only assume that it is easier for a plant to mine adequate fertility from a dilute solution than for it to uptake nutrients from an overly concentrated aka a Saltier solution though i have yet to read a study in the Sci Lit. But it makes intuitive sense in that a nutrient solution can be increased to such a concentration that it can actually draw the water out of the plant and cause permanent cell wall collapse aka Permanent Wilting Point or PWP. With fresh water i think PWP will usually happen around -1500 KPa of Matric tension but i will have to verify that. I would assume that given a High enough salt concentration or EC that a plants roots could be sitting in water and "die of thirst" so to speak. I think there are limits to how well a plant can be slowly acclimatized to overcome these osmotic tension limitations. someone needs to find a nondestructive method to determine the EC of phloem and xylem tissue to be able to continuously monitor the effects of slowly increasing solution concentration over time to these high levels of EC 3 and even EC 4. I think there may be some exageration by some of these growers or perhaps they need to more accurate methods to determine the actual EC concentration next to the roots in the media as most of their solution is simply running down the drain or being bound up in a high CEC mix. If i find some answers to this I will come back and post. Once again, i am very pleased to find your thread. Don't know your background but you take a systematic scientific approach and you have sciency observational skills. Everyone thinks that the foundation of science is the scientific method. Very useful methodology but the core of Science is Creativity, Curiosity and Observation, an inquiry into how Nature really works. Data Collection is important in so far as memory fails and the data, results and interpretations can be passed onto others who can test, verify, push the inquiry deeper. I video recorded some of my observations but it is nice to find someone who took the trouble to log the data down. Very useful.
 
soultouch

soultouch

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For discussion sake can you share your reasons for this? Why does it need to dry?

Personally not a believer in the gpw mearument. Imo its an extremely flawed and easily manipulated measurement.
Hi again, i chuckle when people manage to overwater in coco and then claim it was because they read somewhere it was impossible to overwater in Coco with out taking into account how large the container is or how small the transplant is. All containers will need less water intially if the transplant is small. A small seedling in a large container of coco will need less frequency of watering than the same plant in a smaller pot, and if the soil temps are cold, EvapoTranspiration could slow to a crawl as well [something you pointed out in an another post}. Common Sense should always Trump ALWAYs thinking. Nothing in Nature is always except Gravity perhaps. Super Coarse perlite would be hard to overwater and I once grew in pea gravel in a fabric lined milkcrate {in 1977} and dripped water through the 3/8 pea gravel continuously without overwatering. But you are up to 14x times per day for gallon pots with rougly a 1/4 liter per cycle during lights on. I suspect that one could not water any Peat moss or Peatlite mix that many times in a day without overwatering, so it is MOSTLY TRUE that it is nearly impossible to over water Coco, but you did not start out watering 10x to 14x per day. Some day you should post the full water schedule and volumes week by week plus your EC creep over the entire transplant, veg and flower cycles. One nice big chart, i will make a poster and add to my grow wall things to know board
 
soultouch

soultouch

52
18
I may have to skim that again😂
Some solid info.
I use hydroton in place of Perlite in my coco.
2 inches at the bottom. 2 inches at the top.
And a few scattered in between. Reusable👍
I suck up all the waste with a shop vac.
I can see why some people use hydroton instead of perlite. It provides larger macropore space and it stays where you place it, ie. it does not float and it does not crush down into fines like perlite. But it has no capacity to meaningfully wick water upwards through capillarity or adsorption or absorption. In this regard, it is inferior to using perlite. Let us say you have a 12 inch tall bag with 2 inches of coarse perlite and another with hydroton. The coco mix in the hydroton bag will be slightly wetter for longer with less airspace than the hydroton mix over a 2 inch layer of perlite. Both mixes will temporarily pond water at the 2 inch level interface but the perlite will then help suck the water downward whereas only gravity will drain the water through the hydroton and the perlite would hold slightly more water as a reserve and be able to reverse wick that last water back up into the hydrococo mix. This may very well be an almost insignificant difference in WHC and AFP. To demonstrate my point take an empty nursery pot and run 2 new cloth shoelaces in an x pattern through the holes with an even amount of shoelace outside each wall of the pot,
2. Tape or rubber band these shoelaces up the outside sidewall of the pot towards the rim pulling out all the loose slack so no part of shoelace extends below the bottom of the pot. Then filll the pot with water and allow to drain, Place the container on an elevated concrete block or inverter bowl or another inverted nursery container. Simply moving the pot in an upward motion in will mimic extra gravity due to acceleration. let that free drainage stabilize, then untape or unrubberband the shoe laces and let ends drop below the bottom of the container. however long the shoelaces exceed the container will trick the pot into thinking it is that many inches taller and more water will wick away and drain from the container. if you weigh the containers before and after each of these steps you will see how much extra water drains away.
I repeat if the shoelaces drop another 4 inches vertically below the pot, say you are using a 6 inch pot, the physical water holding capacity and Air Filled Porosity will now be similar to a 10 inch tall pot. If you are growing in plastic containers and you find you mix is too wet, hang shoelaces out the bottom holes and they must Hang straight down, and not horizontal to have the extra drainage effect.

Another quick Eyes wide open demonstration on the effect of media height on Drainage and air space is the SPONGE DEMO
Saturate a rectangular sponge and hold level and wait until water freely drains /
Next turn sponge on edge with the long edge of sponge running parallel to the counter. Extra water will drain way. After this water drains freely away
Turn sponge to tallest side pointing up and down and even more water will drain away.

No matter which direction you hold the sponge, the volume of the sponge is exactly the same [L X W X H]. hOWEVER THE POSITION OF THE SPONGE RESULTS IN THE RESIDENT WATER IN THE SPONGE BEING ACTED UPON BY THE FORCE OF GRAVITY. THE TALLER THE COLuM OF WATER THE HIGHER THE PRESSURE TO THE TUNE OF .437 POUNDS PER FOOT.

In your setup i would possibly use the hydroton base simply because more root surface area will be exposed to the air flowing through the hydroton which is a very good thing. Though i might switch over to a slightly taller pot just to insure better drainage characteristics in the whole pot. And in all my futre runs i will also use a pantyhose covered inverted mesh pots from 3 to 6 inches dead center in the fabric bag bottom to futher reduce the overly saturated zone and increase AFP. I use tall pots from 247
 
Grownsince95

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I can see why some people use hydroton instead of perlite. It provides larger macropore space and it stays where you place it, ie. it does not float and it does not crush down into fines like perlite. But it has no capacity to meaningfully wick water upwards through capillarity or adsorption or absorption. In this regard, it is inferior to using perlite. Let us say you have a 12 inch tall bag with 2 inches of coarse perlite and another with hydroton. The coco mix in the hydroton bag will be slightly wetter for longer with less airspace than the hydroton mix over a 2 inch layer of perlite. Both mixes will temporarily pond water at the 2 inch level interface but the perlite will then help suck the water downward whereas only gravity will drain the water through the hydroton and the perlite would hold slightly more water as a reserve and be able to reverse wick that last water back up into the hydrococo mix. This may very well be an almost insignificant difference in WHC and AFP. To demonstrate my point take an empty nursery pot and run 2 new cloth shoelaces in an x pattern through the holes with an even amount of shoelace outside each wall of the pot,
2. Tape or rubber band these shoelaces up the outside sidewall of the pot towards the rim pulling out all the loose slack so no part of shoelace extends below the bottom of the pot. Then filll the pot with water and allow to drain, Place the container on an elevated concrete block or inverter bowl or another inverted nursery container. Simply moving the pot in an upward motion in will mimic extra gravity due to acceleration. let that free drainage stabilize, then untape or unrubberband the shoe laces and let ends drop below the bottom of the container. however long the shoelaces exceed the container will trick the pot into thinking it is that many inches taller and more water will wick away and drain from the container. if you weigh the containers before and after each of these steps you will see how much extra water drains away.
I repeat if the shoelaces drop another 4 inches vertically below the pot, say you are using a 6 inch pot, the physical water holding capacity and Air Filled Porosity will now be similar to a 10 inch tall pot. If you are growing in plastic containers and you find you mix is too wet, hang shoelaces out the bottom holes and they must Hang straight down, and not horizontal to have the extra drainage effect.

Another quick Eyes wide open demonstration on the effect of media height on Drainage and air space is the SPONGE DEMO
Saturate a rectangular sponge and hold level and wait until water freely drains /
Next turn sponge on edge with the long edge of sponge running parallel to the counter. Extra water will drain way. After this water drains freely away
Turn sponge to tallest side pointing up and down and even more water will drain away.

No matter which direction you hold the sponge, the volume of the sponge is exactly the same [L X W X H]. hOWEVER THE POSITION OF THE SPONGE RESULTS IN THE RESIDENT WATER IN THE SPONGE BEING ACTED UPON BY THE FORCE OF GRAVITY. THE TALLER THE COLuM OF WATER THE HIGHER THE PRESSURE TO THE TUNE OF .437 POUNDS PER FOOT.

In your setup i would possibly use the hydroton base simply because more root surface area will be exposed to the air flowing through the hydroton which is a very good thing. Though i might switch over to a slightly taller pot just to insure better drainage characteristics in the whole pot. And in all my futre runs i will also use a pantyhose covered inverted mesh pots from 3 to 6 inches dead center in the fabric bag bottom to futher reduce the overly saturated zone and increase AFP. I use tall pots from 247
You must have a pretty impressive grow! I can't wait until you get around to post up some pics!

I learn better from pictures. Sometimes the written word can be confusing right? ...when a pic is worth a thousand. 👍
 
soultouch

soultouch

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I think the same but Also i have to Say that if u have seen the roots of a pure hydro... The are submerged And the roots grow the same...
Maybe not the same soil roots and hydro roots? Idk
While certain stresses may force the plant to create more terpenes and fighting for water may help harden a plant a bit, It is unlikely that the lazy ass plant will under perform the stressed plant as far as total biomass goes. This is not to say that i would no worry if i were going to transplant this soft wall, lazy plant into the outside dirt. It would need to be acclimated or hardened off a bit/ While it is hard to examine the roots in the soil and compare to water roots, one could look at fogponic roots and see there are a greater proportion of super fine root hairs which will simply not exist in a hydro setup due to lower oxygen levels and due to turbulence, agitation and possible exposure to light. OctaPots has a reasonable explanation and Professor Kratky explains he learned a similar thing from his mentor and while using different naming convention points out that one must slowly acclimate moist air roots to the water solution. One should not add too much water at one time if Moist Air Roots will be submerged as they will drown but that water roots slowly acclimatized to moist air do not suffer in the same way. I will seek out more published science on this stuff but understand i have been growing off and on for almost 50 years. I once worked as a Greenhouse supervisor at DuPonts Crop Research Farm in Delaware where i returned to school and got a MSc in Plant & Soil Science. I published an Article in HortScience in 1992 on CFI aka Constant Flood Irrigation outlining a novel watering system i invented so i would not be a slave to watering some 20,000 plants in my diverse crop and soil mix studies. I know a bit more than the average joe when it comes soil mixes and water. I remember reading my first soil physical characteristics study of some dozens of commercial plug mixes and components in 1972 and have been tracking similar studies off and on since then.

In the future i will conduct a study for moist air, terrestrial roots and hydro roots, take pictures, manual measurements and then use AI to really measure the root volume, length, branching and fine hairs just to really put the question to rest
 
soultouch

soultouch

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Root do grow great in hydro but there morphology is distinctly different if you closely inspect side by side with soiless grows

While certain stresses may force the plant to create more terpenes and fighting for water may help harden a plant a bit, It is unlikely that the lazy ass plant will under perform the stressed plant as far as total biomass goes. This is not to say that i would no worry if i were going to transplant this soft wall, lazy plant into the outside dirt. It would need to be acclimated or hardened off a bit/ While it is hard to examine the roots in the soil and compare to water roots, one could look at fogponic roots and see there are a greater proportion of super fine root hairs which will simply not exist in a hydro setup due to lower oxygen levels and due to turbulence, agitation and possible exposure to light. OctaPots has a reasonable explanation and Professor Kratky explains he learned a similar thing from his mentor and while using different naming convention points out that one must slowly acclimate moist air roots to the water solution. One should not add too much water at one time if Moist Air Roots will be submerged as they will drown but that water roots slowly acclimatized to moist air do not suffer in the same way. I will seek out more published science on this stuff but understand i have been growing off and on for almost 50 years. I once worked as a Greenhouse supervisor at DuPonts Crop Research Farm in Delaware where i returned to school and got a MSc in Plant & Soil Science. I published an Article in HortScience in 1992 on CFI aka Constant Flood Irrigation outlining a novel watering system i invented so i would not be a slave to watering some 20,000 plants in my diverse crop and soil mix studies. I know a bit more than the average joe when it comes soil mixes and water. I remember reading my first soil physical characteristics study of some dozens of commercial plug mixes and components in 1972 and have been tracking similar studies off and on since then.

In the future i will conduct a study for moist air, terrestrial roots and hydro roots, take pictures, manual measurements and then use AI to really measure the root volume, length, branching and fine hairs just to really put the question to rest. In the meantime i will track down some photos of moist air roots penetrating the fabric bags just above the waterline and plunging into the water where they network out profusely into the saucer water, but they are visibly not as fine as the moist air roots
s d
 
Fudge

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using pot elevators is a great idea where you want to ensure maximum air pruning and never want your roots to touch a dirty common bench. Dr Coco uses a similar double saucer method to catch the leachate in the bottom most saucer just to measure leachate pH and ppms before that waste is drained off. It is indeed a brilliant concept. Professor Carl Whitcomb designed a stepped pyramid air pruning 4 inch pot in the late 1980s that is probably the most optimal small container ever designed. When a 4 inch roots hits air and burns back, branch roots erupt along the previous 4 inches and create a fibrous non circling root system. As much as one may be tempted to use a deeper pot with the same design, Whitcomb points out that if an 8 inch deep were used instead of a 4 inch pots that all this root branching would occur in the bottom 4 inches of the 8 inch pot and the upper 4 inches would not be exploited until the lower zone were first filled with roots. This is one reason growers generally get better results by transplanting up at least one or 2 times during the whole grow.
Even the common use of fabric grow bags employs the principles of either root trapping and/or air pruning to great advantage. I love air pruning and first employed the use of mesh bags in the early 1980s, before the nonwoven bags were even commercially available. This sub irrigation method is simply another approach to root pruning and moisture control in the container media. It does run extra risk of inviting a root rot pathogen, but there are several ways to mitigate or even eliminate these potential pathogens. There are at least 2 commercially available sub watering systems that many cannabis growers use. The AutoPot and the OctaPot. The AutoPot design hinges on these clever 2 stage float valve that allows a 1 inch deep container to completely drain or 1/16 inch layer of water left before the vaccuum pressure is broken on the lower valve and the reservoir then floods till the upper float valve mechanism shuts of the water level. The OctaPot manual system has a floating stick gauge that alerts the grower when the water has dropped into the red zone and then grower adds water. The automated version employs a tall feed solution reservoir which constantly tops off a Master Float reservoir which then feeds all the individual plant saucers which flood to the level that the master reservoir is flooded. Super cheap mini floats for $5 can be also be used for individual saucers in a DIY scenario. Hundreds of youtube videos on DIY versions of self watering planters exist. Some containers employ a suspended mesh deck above a reservoir and use a capillary mat or wick of some kind to lift the water to the plant root base Capillary matting has upper flow limits and for plants that use a lot of water such as cannabis and tomatoes. Others use media substrate feet that extend into the reservoir to wick water up, One could also set a fabric bag filled with media and both the bag and the media will wick up the water. If most of the bag sitting in water is too water saturated and you wish more air flow, the fabric bag can be lowered onto an inverted mesh pot which will lift the center of the bag above the water line allow for increased drainage and air exchange while the perimeter of the bag descends back into the solution. There are dozens of tweaks to these scenarios, but it is possible to engineer a system in which the vertical wicking of water is highly controlled and even the choice of media can ensure optimal levels of water and air throughout the profile. Using a gradient of particle sizes and a choice of hydrophobic or hydrophillic properties it is entirely possible to create a soil space where water and air are more evenly distributed than in any system where a container filled with either a single component or a homogenous mix fills the entire container. A 60/40 mix may overall have optimal airspace starting 2 inches above the bottom of the pot, but it may be slightly too dry for the upper 3 inches of the media. I am just making these numbers up, but i am going to use a laboratory grade moisture probe to actually measure the WHC at various depths in the media. I am going to speculate that if the bottom 3 inches of the container used a water absorbing coarser material with fewer fines that airspace would improve in the lower part of the container and that the upper dry zone of the container could be made wetter by using a finer particle size material. Of course, such a layer cake gradient media fill would almost certainly require only sub watering because any abrupt soil layer will at least temporarily perch water at each boundary interface as water drains downward from a top watering. Even coarse gravel over sand will temporarily flood the entire gravel zone before the water begins to seep into the sand. I know this sounds counter intuitive but i have read dozens of papers and seen dozens of actual demonstrations in clear pots where this fact of physics was proven repeatedly.

So, you are correct that there is no runoff in this system. In fact i use a constant or near constant water level to WATER root prune instead of AIR prune. One can also use entrapment or constriction to root prune or heat prune or chemical prune such as using copper hydroxide treated nursery pots, copper mesh, a concentrated peroxide solution which literally oxidizes the root surfaces that it contacts. Manually pruning is also exploited but the tearing injuries to plant tissue is an open invitation to invading organisms
If too many roots grow through the bag and become water roots but i need to transplant up into a larger pot, rather than tear off the roots, i would either drain the water then air prune or chemical prune the roots with a stronger solution of hydrogen peroxide so entry points of infection would be reduced.

Large orchards grown on drained swamp land use control boards on field canals to control the water table height. Some of these systems date back over 200 years. Your mother may have watered her clay pot by simply adding water to the saucer, tand commercially available Wicking pots have been available for over 2 decades. some Kratky methods grow an entire crop floating on a single reservoir of never replenished water. So it is possible, I have grown thousands of pots of pampas grass, tomatos, beets and chard in 3 to 6 month long experiments as well going back over 30 years. For a crop cycle that is often less than 3 months, a sub irrigated system is almost fool proof.

A recirculating system will contaminate all plants where a sub irrigated system will only contaminate those plants which share a reservoir. Any pathogen or algae can be handled using a proactive bio control, or ozonated water or hydrogen peroxide just poured into the saucer to control any algae. Any commercial grow that uses recirculated water needs to provide bio designed filtration plus inline UV, ozone or peroxide injection or some similar type technologies.

I just harvested a plant that was 1 year 9 months old just to see how long it would last before any damage. I finally got what appears to be a slow dropping of leaves and indeed there is some soft rot starting on the lower trunk where the "bark was cracked and wounded" when i was wrangling the 4 foot plant around that was stuck in the scrog grid.

For those people who find themselves manually watering 10 to 14 x a day, if they put a saucer under the plant, the runoff water will be used up in under an hour, but they may only have to water 8x a day but there would be zero waste if you wanted. However any wet dry irrigation cycling in a sub watered system increase the risk of drowning Moist Air or Terrestrial roots. When these white roots die back, discolor and begin to rot and at the very least some saprophytic organism is now consuming this dead tissue. Some rhizosphere product in the sub water may insure that a more beneficial organism is doing the feeding because even an out of control pathogenic bacteria or fungi can result in a pathological consequence for a dead root and the host plant. Outright pathogens such as Pythium or Fusarium if introduced will most certainly lead to death if not mitigated in some fashion.



The most probable way of introducing a root rot pathogen in a sub watered system is by letting the reservoir dry out. When this happens roots will grow to bottom of pot and then potentially drown upon a future flooding ... although many cannabis strains can adapt and grow more hydro like roots. If you start with a pathogen free media, you can easily outlast a 12 week window, if you keep the individual plant reservoir constantly or cyclically flooded frequently enough. You use the water to prune or discourage the roots continuously, Only those roots whose morphology convert to grow hydro will venture into the area. For plants that hate wet feet these roots will simply never grow into the overly saturated zone. Now to compensate for this PWT Perched Water Table or Saturated zone simply increase the height of the pot by at least the depth of the water level or better still to the height of the water level plus the perched water table level in the media. For an example lets say you are using a coco media without sub irrigation and if you used an accurate enough water moisture probe determined that the bottom 2 inches of the coco was overly wet everytime you watered but since it drains fast enough and cannabis is vigorous enough, it usually worked out but still NOT OPTIMAL. Now lets say you use a taller grow bag by 2 inches like a 12 inch tall bag vs a 10 inch bag. In the 10 inch bag, there is 8 inches of more favorably conditioned media but in the 12 inch bag there is still a 10 inch depth of not overly saturated soil for the roots to explore. many growers hate tall pots, the plants fall over and they have to water more often than the same volume of substrate in a shallower container. Growers adapt to their materials and environments as well and since cannabis is a vigorous grower, whatever works for people is something they will probably just keep doing, but it may or may not be scientifically optimal or some other issues may have to be adjusted for or compensated for.

People can grow in straight water. Of course lettuce can grow in static water with Dissolved Oxygen aka DO as low as 1/2 part per million. As oxygen in the atmosphere is about 20.3%, the partial pressure of oxygen at sea level (1 atm) is 0.203 atm. Thus the amount of dissolved oxygen at 100% saturation at sea level at 20° C is 9.03 mg/L . Even with air bubblers it is difficult to exceed 13 percent but under some lab conditions using venturis or ozone injection or peroxide this can be upped supposedly to 50 ppm. Standard DO instruments top out at 20 ppm whereas regular air is 200,000 ppm oxygen. Even the most poorly drained greenhouse media is probably at least close to 10% Airspace = 100,000 ppm oxygen so even using an airstone under a regular fabric pot in a drain to waste will probably lead to increase yields when someone actually tests it out. Let us imagine a grower using a pot size and mix where he waters once every 3 days, chances are the mix is really too wet for the entire first day so an airstone below the bag might provide optimal o2 immediately but many only need to run for 4 to 8 hours. This is a future experiment on my task list. A simpler solution is too place and inverted pot in the center of the bag before filling with media. Professor Kratky use a full gallon pot upside down for this but loved my idea of using an inverted Mesh cup {optimal size to be determined] sleeved in pantyhose to provide even greater Air Flow and eliminating the zone in the container where the media always verges on being overly wet. I just kicking out some observations on the whole water Air space interaction and many viable approaches and tweaks. Sorry to run on so long
Autopot have used this as an add on now, it's called an air dome I've been looking at them fir a while, I've built my own multi pot version using the aQuavalve with the housing in a 1x1m tray, I've pulled off an impressive sog using it. Love this idea of an upside down mesh pot, add an airline on a timer with maybe some of the porous rubber stuff they use for air curtains would work great. Great tip.
 
3 balls

3 balls

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@soultouch As you clearly have a scientific background not often found in these forums, I would kick my self for not trying to pry some product opinions out of you. I assume you wont be comfortable bad mouthing anything but if you could comment on the ones you may have a high opinion of I would be very grateful.

I grow in Royal Gold Tupur

The biofungicides I have used and or currently use as dips or drenches are RootShield WP, Actinovate and Regalia.

The what I call inoculants that I use are Cannazym and Hydroguard.

My benefecials are mostly just Recharge at the moment after switching from many years of using Great White. I do use V&B Life still here and there. Also Mammoth P

Maybe you could share what products you use in your garden. Thank you
 
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Tesla666

Tesla666

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I would like to discuss about that. In my short experience whith coco i think that keep the coco saturated at the 90% it's not good at all during veg.

When u start the veg with a cutting, the root system grow faster if we let the coco get dry until 30% of humidity. That dry cycle since the moment you water the coco until 70-80% humidity and gets dry to 25-30% stimulates the root system to grow looking for water when the coco is getting dry.




If we produce many dry cycles a day like 2 or 3, being necesary water 2-3 times a day, we Will be getting a very fast and explosive grow, and a very strong root system.



I only get some run off 1 time a week ir two weeks, and i use enzimes 1 time a week and i'm very happy with my results.

Thats My way of work with coco.
Cut with 33 days of life in the 10th day of bloom using coco with my technique.
 
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soultouch

soultouch

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You must have a pretty impressive grow! I can't wait until you get around to post up some pics!

I learn better from pictures. Sometimes the written word can be confusing right? ...when a pic is worth a thousand. 👍
Not even growing right now, but will be setting up soon. Most of what I am sharing is research i did over 30 years ago when working on my Master's in Plant & Soil Science. I will try to collect some illustrations or at least find links to the work of others that have great graphics to illustrate the concepts I am talking about
 
Grownsince95

Grownsince95

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Not even growing right now, but will be setting up soon. Most of what I am sharing is research i did over 30 years ago when working on my Master's in Plant & Soil Science. I will try to collect some illustrations or at least find links to the work of others that have great graphics to illustrate the concepts I am talking about
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👍

🌱
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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I wish the stakes were longer so I could elevate them more. I think I was a little too worried about it, when I woke up this morning (after 2 waterings) the pots looked a lot better, the coco is getting saturated better than I expected.

View attachment 1101451

Now I need to find the best solution to keep my nutes reservoir circulating so the aquarium heater will keep the tank the desired temperature. Will a simple bubbler/air pump work? Or do I need to make some kind of waterfall w/water pump?
Small circulation pump or airstones will work for mixing. I use a 120gph small inline pump.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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I am not familar with the term gpw measurement. Gross Plant Weight?


Calcium could be supplied with Calcium NitrateandtheMagnesiumcould be supplied with Magnesium Sulfate, aka Epsom Salts at any dollar store or drug store. Micro Nutrients will not be useful
Gpw=grams per watt.

I'm not sure what your references to cal nitrate or mag sulfate are for?

The quote you responded to was me say that most coco these days are well rinsed and buffered. So you no longer need to soak I cal mag and ph prior to use.
 
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