Dwc woes - constant failure

[Aqua Man]

They are talking completely sterile… add root and thats not sterile. Here shows just water supply and H2o2 last for 5.5 and just over 1 hr.

 

[Aqua Man]

I also believe they are referring to stored in containers and not exposed to air laden with bacteria etc from airstones and all the other things that can be oxidized burring out the h2o2. Anything that can be oxidized will be until the h2o2 is gone…. and that happens extremely fast

 

[beluga]

no you are confusing sterile with a name we use… they are talking sterile like medical

I've always scrutinized that in my head, coming from doing some soft core microbiology. IIRC, you'll find certain bacteria even in bottles isopropyl and h2o2. Surely once you open them in air not under a flow hood.

What we run are sanitized systems.

 

[Frostie069]

8-12" roots and 3+ nodes is safe transplant. Less than that yoi run the risk of shock and death

100% agreed, how long roughly does it take you to achieve this? I was aiming for that but had to transplant a little earlier than I liked due to temp issues with my seedling raiser and I had to go to work for a period of time, I had two nodes on most, some have a long single tap root and some have much shorter but much more roots out of the bottom of the basket. 3 weeks my bay burgers spent before transplanting.

 

[Aqua Man]

I've always scrutinized that in my head, coming from doing some soft core microbiology. IIRC, you'll find certain bacteria even in bottles isopropyl and h2o2. Surely once you open them in air not under a flow hood.

What we run are sanitized systems.

Exposure and concentration are far different in our systems then in a bottle

 

[Frostie069]

also can I say this as a noob without being roasted, but aren't these plants way too small for cal and mag supplementation? the plants requirements are quite minimal at this stage, are they really absorbing that much that it needs to be supplemented? Also using H&G I don't think so. I'd biff it till you need it. You don't need anything but the essentials in the res, the rest will just do harm in the early stages IMO

 

[Moe.Red]

Ppm is not necessarily completely h2o2 but simply a measure of dissolved solids

I'm using strips that supposedly measure the PPM of H2O2, not dissolved solids.

I can only tell you what I actually see in real life in these systems, beyond that you decide.

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm using strips that supposedly measure the PPM of H2O2, not dissolved solids.

I can only tell you what I actually see in real life in these systems, beyond that you decide.

Ahhh i see. Your results are probably correct. The dose and concentration are going to be the key.

Just so i can understand how are you testing it and do you notice any difference in them over the grow?

like initially ot lasts days and when the roots have become very established you need to add more or more frequently?

what dose are you using of what %?

There is a reason your seeing those results… just cant say what they are

 

[Frostie069]

hey mate decided to share a pic with you.

so my last grow died from root rot, last grow was first NFT grow, im now onto second, still learning, its not smooth sailing but im better at "fixing" things this time, this crop still might die, im not counting my chickens yet, but this is a 100% legit time line. 15/9 start germ, 19/9 transplanted to Rockwool 3/10 day 1 Veg. Today is the start of week 2 veg, this plant had a single 16cm tap root on it last Monday. All I have in my soup is aqua flakes A&B in minimal amounts and super thrive (get yourself some, the best). Ive been top watering morning and night, they seem to like it. EC 0.5 (0.7 inc tap) up until they went into NFT system they were just given top watering with a drop of super thrive and a drop of roots excel per 1L, anything else was too much.

im really happy dude!!

 

[hm7]

Either my strips are not truly measuring H2O2 concentrations, or it lasts much longer than people think.

Yeah, this is what I like to see - people actually doing legit testing instead of just guessing. IMO there are way too many variables in everyone's environment and grow to do a magic 'one size fits all' for things like this. I see so much of the guessing game thrown around on the net, and the thing is, just because someone got through a grow with what they were doing, without actually testing to see where their levels of free chlorine, h2o2, 'whatever have you', etc are at - they have no real way of knowing.

Maybe .... their chlorine/h2o2/etc off gassed and they just didn't have anything in their water/air/environment to begin with that would cause them problems. They would automatically assume "I added this much of X and I had no problems!". That's how scientific evidence is formulated for anything - you have a hypothesis, you actually test for it and pull back some hard data, and it either confirms or busts the hypothesis.

There's so many people who just blindly grow, following random conflicting data online without ever doing any real testing/research on their own that it makes it hard for, at least someone like myself who is more of an evidence based observer/learner, hard to justify/believe. I know to a lot of people - especially those who have zero/minimal problems - it seems stupid, counterproductive, or a waste of time, but ... imo, if someone is really trying to sit down and truly find underlying issues and really gain an in-depth understanding of what is actually going on, you're only going to get there by actually doing actual, real testing to confirm or deny your assumptions.

Those who argue it's stupid/pointless are essentually arguing monitoring your ppm/ph as pointless too by that same logic. You test your ppm. You test your ph. Why would you not want to be testing the amount of sterilizing agent in your system to find out what the levels are at and how long they are maintained?

I personally can see this level of actual testing/data gathering as beneficial. I see absolutely no downsides to it whatsoever. Some will argue that growing is an art form, others will argue it's a science. Can't please everyone.

also can I say this as a noob without being roasted, but aren't these plants way too small for cal and mag supplementation? the plants requirements are quite minimal at this stage, are they really absorbing that much that it needs to be supplemented? Also using H&G I don't think so. I'd biff it till you need it. You don't need anything but the essentials in the res, the rest will just do harm in the early stages IMO

Personally, I have found the old 'don't give seedlings ANYTHING until 3 weeks/3 nodes' advice I've seen thrown around the internet countless times to be utter nonsense. I believe it stems from old growers, who came from hot soil. In Hyro, from what I've seen and experimented with - this deprives the plants and leaves them deficient of nutrients. I've read it time and time again "The cotyledons contain all the nutrients a plant needs to get to 3 weeks/3 nodes". I don't believe it. I think the cotyledons contain enough nutes to pop the seedling up and get the first set of true leaves out, and that's about it.

I also think this is *very* dependent upon the water you're using and what's already in it. I think a lot of people who still go by this probably have really poor water that's very high PPM - and that allows them to get away with not giving any nutes. This last attempt of mine when I actually started mine off with about 220tds (a mix of calmag, Aquaflakes A and B) - they were the greenest, best looking seedlings I've *EVER* had. Again, I'm a noob, and obviously am having issues, but ... this is what my testing has shown me after a LOT of starting over to all this root rot over the lat year+. Every single time, up until now, I have blindly followed what I've continuously read thrown around the net of "don't give them anything but plain water until 3 weeks/3nodes" - my plants have been yellowing horribly by that point.

I also have very low ppm tap water, however.... Not everyone does.

hey mate decided to share a pic with you.

so my last grow died from root rot, last grow was first NFT grow, im now onto second, still learning, its not smooth sailing but im better at "fixing" things this time, this crop still might die, im not counting my chickens yet, but this is a 100% legit time line. 15/9 start germ, 19/9 transplanted to Rockwool 3/10 day 1 Veg. Today is the start of week 2 veg, this plant had a single 16cm tap root on it last Monday. All I have in my soup is aqua flakes A&B in minimal amounts and super thrive (get yourself some, the best). Ive been top watering morning and night, they seem to like it. EC 0.5 (0.7 inc tap) up until they went into NFT system they were just given top watering with a drop of super thrive and a drop of roots excel per 1L, anything else was too much.
View attachment 1290733

im really happy dude!!

Looking fantastic! I appreciate your very precise timeline and dates of when you started, vs transplanted, vs considered it in veg.

I've never really understood exactly when the 'seedling' stage ends, the the 'veg' stage begins. I've seen answers all over the board related to that.

 

[Moe.Red]

Ahhh i see. Your results are probably correct. The dose and concentration are going to be the key.

Just so i can understand how are you testing it and do you notice any difference in them over the grow?

like initially ot lasts days and when the roots have become very established you need to add more or more frequently?

what dose are you using of what %?

There is a reason your seeing those results… just cant say what they are

You probably remember when I recently started up my mothballed system and it was really nasty due to undrained lines and chiller.

I filled it with RO and started all the pumps.

I then put in a lot of 12% (maybe .5L? didn't measure) and then ran the system that way for a day. I used the water to clean all parts of the system and then drained it. It was over 100PPM, which is the max for these strips.

After I drained and added new RO day 2, there was still sufficient H2O2 in the water to read 100PPM. I let it go another day.

Drained and added RO and the H2O2 is now measurable. In the 50PPM range. I let it run for a week that way, and it only dropped slightly.

This is why I say it reacts more slowly in a situation where the bio load is low. Of course it is not sterile, I just meant that all significant life was gone.

In order to get to zero, I had to sully drain once more, and even vacuum out the remaining crannies with a shop vac, then add RO back in.

I can bench test this and show this phenomenon quite easily. But I am certain that H2O2 reacts differently depending on the load, if these strips are to be believed.


In terms of running it while growing, yes, any organic matter, including roots, will consume H2O2 more quickly. I have seen this too.

I have not run a sterile system in a long time, so I do not have any additional documentation to share on that.

 

[Aqua Man]

You probably remember when I recently started up my mothballed system and it was really nasty due to undrained lines and chiller.

I filled it with RO and started all the pumps.

I then put in a lot of 12% (maybe .5L? didn't measure) and then ran the system that way for a day. I used the water to clean all parts of the system and then drained it. It was over 100PPM, which is the max for these strips.

After I drained and added new RO day 2, there was still sufficient H2O2 in the water to read 100PPM. I let it go another day.

Drained and added RO and the H2O2 is now measurable. In the 50PPM range. I let it run for a week that way, and it only dropped slightly.

This is why I say it reacts more slowly in a situation where the bio load is low. Of course it is not sterile, I just meant that all significant life was gone.

In order to get to zero, I had to sully drain once more, and even vacuum out the remaining crannies with a shop vac, then add RO back in.

I can bench test this and show this phenomenon quite easily. But I am certain that H2O2 reacts differently depending on the load, if these strips are to be believed.


In terms of running it while growing, yes, any organic matter, including roots, will consume H2O2 more quickly. I have seen this too.

I have not run a sterile system in a long time, so I do not have any additional documentation to share on that.

Ahhh ok that makes complete sense… again i get caught thinking linearly.

FWIW i think the strips are accurate although i have never used them the method they use seems solid to me

 

[hm7]

You probably remember when I recently started up my mothballed system and it was really nasty due to undrained lines and chiller.

I filled it with RO and started all the pumps.

I then put in a lot of 12% (maybe .5L? didn't measure) and then ran the system that way for a day. I used the water to clean all parts of the system and then drained it. It was over 100PPM, which is the max for these strips.

After I drained and added new RO day 2, there was still sufficient H2O2 in the water to read 100PPM. I let it go another day.

Drained and added RO and the H2O2 is now measurable. In the 50PPM range. I let it run for a week that way, and it only dropped slightly.

This is why I say it reacts more slowly in a situation where the bio load is low. Of course it is not sterile, I just meant that all significant life was gone.

In order to get to zero, I had to sully drain once more, and even vacuum out the remaining crannies with a shop vac, then add RO back in.

I can bench test this and show this phenomenon quite easily. But I am certain that H2O2 reacts differently depending on the load, if these strips are to be believed.


In terms of running it while growing, yes, any organic matter, including roots, will consume H2O2 more quickly. I have seen this too.

I have not run a sterile system in a long time, so I do not have any additional documentation to share on that.

I love your test based methodology. Absolutely fantastic!

 

[beluga]

What are numbers but abstractions of realities?

It'd do good to move your mindset from thinking people "blindly" do "random" things that reap consistent results.
We can measure and replicate procedures without spreadsheets and data logs. We can identify erroneous steps or constituents without chemical analyses. And we can show others how to do it, too.

Over 15 years, I've used a myriad of different techniques with different processes with different components and only recently tracked even my pH. You find a way by trial and error - by building a relationship with the plant. And listening to others who have a better relationship with it - what you should be doing, regardless of whether they can provide you the data you believe you require.

If you think your water is bad, use different water.

 

[Frostie069]

Yeah, this is what I like to see - people actually doing legit testing instead of just guessing. IMO there are way too many variables in everyone's environment and grow to do a magic 'one size fits all' for things like this. I see so much of the guessing game thrown around on the net, and the thing is, just because someone got through a grow with what they were doing, without actually testing to see where their levels of free chlorine, h2o2, 'whatever have you', etc are at - they have no real way of knowing.

Maybe .... their chlorine/h2o2/etc off gassed and they just didn't have anything in their water/air/environment to begin with that would cause them problems. They would automatically assume "I added this much of X and I had no problems!". That's how scientific evidence is formulated for anything - you have a hypothesis, you actually test for it and pull back some hard data, and it either confirms or busts the hypothesis.

There's so many people who just blindly grow, following random conflicting data online without ever doing any real testing/research on their own that it makes it hard for, at least someone like myself who is more of an evidence based observer/learner, hard to justify/believe. I know to a lot of people - especially those who have zero/minimal problems - it seems stupid, counterproductive, or a waste of time, but ... imo, if someone is really trying to sit down and truly find underlying issues and really sit down and gain an in-depth understanding of what is actually going on, you're only going to get there by actually doing actual, real testing to confirm or deny your assumptions.

I personally can see this level of actual testing/data gathering as beneficial. I see absolutely no downsides to it whatsoever. Some will argue that growing is an art form, others will argue it's a science. Can't please everyone.





Personally, I have found the old 'don't give seedlings ANYTHING until 3 weeks/3 nodes' advice I've seen thrown around the internet countless times to be utter nonsense. I believe it stems from old growers, who came from hot soil. In Hyro, from what I've seen and experimented with - this deprives the plants and leaves the deficient of nutrients.

I also think this is *very* dependent upon the water you're using and what's already in it. I think a lot of people who still go by this probably have really poor water that's very high PPM - and that allows them to get away with not giving any nutes. This last attempt of mine when I actually started mine off with about 220tds (a mix of calmag, Aquaflakes A and B) - they were the greenest, best looking seedlings I've *EVER* had. Again, I'm a noob, and obviously am having issues, but ... this is what my testing has shown me after a LOT of starting over to all this root rot over the lat year+.





Looking fantastic! I appreciate your very precise timeline and dates of when you started, vs transplanted, vs considered it in veg.

I've never really understood exactly when the 'seedling' stage ends, the the 'veg' stage begins. I've seen answers all over the board related to that.

First day of veg is the day they went into the system for me as that’s kind of what I’ve seen as the standard around.
In all honesty it’s not all fantastic, still have had shit collecting on the roots, wasn’t major but enough to have me alarmed, has subsided since adding the little aquarium filter to res, I’ve given them two res baths and root squirts to remove the little bits of brown blobs.

With giving nutes to seedlings, from finger leaves light is all they need and only a little, I personally don’t think they have a need for food until they have enough roots to consume it, leaves starting to lime out in colour would suggest to me they need feeding. I guess for me I come from a grow where I over nuted them as well as many other things, so I’m going towards the other end this grow, focusing on the leaves, tips down not happy, usually PH or EC or both is the issue for me. When I look back at the photos from the last grow you can actually see the leaves deepening in green before I ran into issues, then tips down, then clawing, leaves yellowing and the roots looked similar to your crispy fried noodles with black bean sauce.

what ive been trying to say but didn't articulate very well, I believe a smidge of deficiency is a quicker fix than over feeding. I let my seedlings lime out a bit this grow, two days for them to colour up. Last grow I fed from the get go and got away with it, ran into problems later. You can feed from the get go and get good results, but you can also stunt them, burn roots etc. I've read elsewhere keeping them hungry can be a very productive style of growing

 

[hm7]

What are numbers but abstractions of realities?

It'd do good to move your mindset from thinking people "blindly" do "random" things that reap consistent results.
We can measure and replicate procedures without spreadsheets and data logs. We can identify erroneous steps or constituents without chemical analyses. And we can show others how to do it, too.

Over 15 years, I've used a myriad of different techniques with different processes with different components and only recently tracked even my pH. You find a way by trial and error - by building a relationship with the plant. And listening to others who have a better relationship with it - what you should be doing, regardless of whether they can provide you the data you believe you require.

If you think your water is bad, use different water.

You do you man. Like I've told and praised you for already - you clearly have a very good undestanding of growing, and know institutionally by now what/how to do things in a way that works for you.


Every person in almost every single field - growing or otherwise - who truly excels and has a massive amount of low level knowledge of how how things work has gotten there from test based research. Knowledge is never a bad thing. We as a species wouldn't even be where we are today, without countless minds and individuals doing scientific research/testing.


I really think it's actually kind of funny that you're basically mocking me for wanting to actually test and gather legitimate data on various aspects of things. Clearly you're intelligent, but that's how we evolve and learn as a species. Look at our own understanding of our reality. Look at the medical field. It's all done through test based research. How can gathering data and doing tests ever be a bad thing?


Anyway - I'm not going to argue about it with you any more. Clearly you're a very knowledgeable, experienced, and capable grower. I commend you for your experience and expertise, however.... I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by making fun of them for wanting to actually gather data on various aspects of things and gain a better, more in-depth understanding of what's truly going on at a fundamental level instead of just assuming/guessing.

 

[Moe.Red]

What are numbers but abstractions of realities?

It'd do good to move your mindset from thinking people "blindly" do "random" things that reap consistent results.
We can measure and replicate procedures without spreadsheets and data logs. We can identify erroneous steps or constituents without chemical analyses. And we can show others how to do it, too.

Over 15 years, I've used a myriad of different techniques with different processes with different components and only recently tracked even my pH. You find a way by trial and error - by building a relationship with the plant. And listening to others who have a better relationship with it - what you should be doing, regardless of whether they can provide you the data you believe you require.

If you think your water is bad, use different water.

Some people have an innate talent for horticulture. Others, including myself, could kill a cactus. I had to learn my green thumb with the internet and books as teachers.

Ever hear of the 7 intelligences?

I'm ohhh so purple. Somehow you straddle blue and purple, and to me that is unusual. Most natural born growers tend to be more "creative" types in addition to naturalistic. And on top of that you are a fish.

 

[Moe.Red]

You do you man. Like I've told and praised you for already - you clearly have a very good undestanding of growing, and know institutionally by now what/how to do things in a way that works for you.


Every person in almost every single field - growing or otherwise - who truly excels and has a massive amount of low level knowledge of how how things work has gotten there from test based research. Knowledge is never a bad thing. We as a species wouldn't even be where we are today, without countless minds and individuals doing scientific research/testing.


I really think it's actually kind of funny that you're basically mocking me for wanting to actually test and gather legitimate data on various aspects of things. Clearly you're intelligent, but that's how we evolve and learn as a species. Look at our own understanding of our reality. Look at the medical field. It's all done through test based research. How can gathering data and doing tests ever be a bad thing?


Anyway - I'm not going to argue about it with you any more. Clearly you're a very knowledgeable, experienced, and capable grower. I commend you for your experience and expertise, however.... I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by making fun of them for wanting to actually gather data on various aspects of things and gain a better, more in-depth understanding of what's truly going on at a fundamental level instead of just assuming/guessing.

Hey, let me stand up for Beluga here, I think you may be reading him wrong. He's genuinely trying to help you.

 

[Moe.Red]

I love your test based methodology. Absolutely fantastic!

Thanks, its a hobby. I do it for the lols.

 

[hm7]

Some people have an innate talent for horticulture. Others, including myself, could kill a cactus. I had to learn my green thumb with the internet and books as teachers.

Ever hear of the 7 intelligences?

View attachment 1290757

I'm ohhh so purple. Somehow you straddle blue and purple, and to me that is unusual. Most natural born growers tend to be more "creative" types in addition to naturalistic. And on top of that you are a fish.

Yeah, this is what I said yesterday, and also above - imo - there are two types of people, those with a green thumb who can throw a seed on a slab of concrete in a dark room and have it magically grow into a massive, perfect plant - and others, like myself, who can't grow the most basic of things under the most ideal environments lol.