Dwc woes - constant failure

[hm7]

Hey, let me stand up for Beluga here, I think you may be reading him wrong. He's genuinely trying to help you.

Maybe I am, and if I am, I apologize - but from how I'm reading/interpreting his replies to my process so far, it's come across as more condescending and mocking, than being helpful. I've taken it thus far as 'I have no problems, and don't do any of that testing nonsense, therefore you're being stupid and wasting your time.'.

 

[Moe.Red]

Yeah, this is what I said yesterday, and also above - imo - there are two types of people, those with a green thumb who can throw a seed on a slab of concrete in a dark room and have it magically grow into a massive, perfect plant - and others, like myself, who can't grow the most basic of things under the most ideal environments lol.

I'm with you. I might be able to grow concrete tho.

If you take one piece of advice from me, completely sterilize your system and start over. Post it up to a grow thread and tag me in, I'll follow along and help you where I can. You can get over the learning curve in one grow.

 

[hm7]

I'm with you. I might be able to grow concrete tho.

If you take one piece of advice from me, completely sterilize your system and start over. Post it up to a grow thread and tag me in, I'll follow along and help you where I can. You can get over the learning curve in one grow.

Thanks man. I appreciate that. I was going to post updates on this thread as the next ones go in, but ... if it's easier, I can start a grow thread instead.

 

[Aqua Man]

Some people have an innate talent for horticulture. Others, including myself, could kill a cactus. I had to learn my green thumb with the internet and books as teachers.

Ever hear of the 7 intelligences?

View attachment 1290757

I'm ohhh so purple. Somehow you straddle blue and purple, and to me that is unusual. Most natural born growers tend to be more "creative" types in addition to naturalistic. And on top of that you are a fish.

Im a tin foil hat… they dont even recognize my kind

 

[beluga]

Some people have an innate talent for horticulture. Others, including myself, could kill a cactus. I had to learn my green thumb with the internet and books as teachers.

Ever hear of the 7 intelligences?

View attachment 1290757

I'm ohhh so purple. Somehow you straddle blue and purple, and to me that is unusual. Most natural born growers tend to be more "creative" types in addition to naturalistic. And on top of that you are a fish.

If I know those purple peoples, I know they can't sit still, too.

I have the tendency to over-tinker. I'm building lights ffs. Honestly, the more I apply numbers, the more they tell me to just shut up and watch the movie.

Sorry to seem combative or overly subjective, @hm7 . Stopping and listening, while it sounds like some wudang monk shit, is really the piece of advice that broke me through the learning curve and the overwhelming amount of possible information to process and apply.

 

[Aqua Man]

yeah definitely @beluga is definitely only helping…. Cant picture him with a mean bone in his body… even if he is a giant mass of muscle lol

 

[hm7]

Well then I apologize. I'm sure my frustrations regarding everything throughout this aren't helping here.

Some people just inherently 'get growing'. I think it's blatantly obvious - I'm not one of them. I'm doing what I can, in my own ways, to try to better understand things. I don't appreciate being made fun of for trying to learn in a way that makes sense to me. We all learn differently.

 

[hm7]

You probably remember when I recently started up my mothballed system and it was really nasty due to undrained lines and chiller.

I filled it with RO and started all the pumps.

I then put in a lot of 12% (maybe .5L? didn't measure) and then ran the system that way for a day. I used the water to clean all parts of the system and then drained it. It was over 100PPM, which is the max for these strips.

After I drained and added new RO day 2, there was still sufficient H2O2 in the water to read 100PPM. I let it go another day.

Drained and added RO and the H2O2 is now measurable. In the 50PPM range. I let it run for a week that way, and it only dropped slightly.

This is why I say it reacts more slowly in a situation where the bio load is low. Of course it is not sterile, I just meant that all significant life was gone.

In order to get to zero, I had to sully drain once more, and even vacuum out the remaining crannies with a shop vac, then add RO back in.

I can bench test this and show this phenomenon quite easily. But I am certain that H2O2 reacts differently depending on the load, if these strips are to be believed.


In terms of running it while growing, yes, any organic matter, including roots, will consume H2O2 more quickly. I have seen this too.

I have not run a sterile system in a long time, so I do not have any additional documentation to share on that.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, and I realize this is very situational, but this right here is a prime example of why actually testing, vs just randomly assuming things based on 'random internet knowledge' can be vital when trying to gain an understanding of what's going on in someone's own system.



If Moe had blindly believed and followed the general knowledge thrown around on the net, he would have believed that after 2-3 days, all that H2O2 would have completely broken down in his system. However, him doing actual testing of how much sterilization agent remained in his system proved contradictory to that common belief.

Had he just simply blindly followed this belief without actually testing his unique environment/system to confirm those assumptions and instead just assumed it had all broken down and then introduced his beneficial bacteria into his system, he would have incorrectly assumed he had properly inoculated his system, when in fact all that beneficial bacteria would have been eradicated by the high levels of sterilization agent that remained in his system.

In this example - it's a good thing he actually did testing himself to learn how long it truly was remaining in his system to confirm the levels were at 0, before introducing the beneficial bacteria, or he could have ended up in a situation where he's assuming things are good to go, when in reality, the levels weren't where they needed to be.

 

[beluga]

Well then I apologize. I'm sure my frustrations regarding everything throughout this aren't helping here.

Some people just inherently 'get growing'. I think it's blatantly obvious - I'm not one of them. I'm doing what I can, in my own ways, to try to better understand things. I don't appreciate being made fun of for trying to learn in a way that makes sense to me. We all learn differently.

No apologies necessary. I know how frustration gets us.

So, here's what I'm trying to get at.

I'm not saying that your method of learning is somehow leading you astray. It's not at all.
What I'm saying is it seems like you're drowning in variables and clinging onto whatever you can as a life raft.
But what you need to be doing is to stop struggling and let people on the boat toss you a lifebuoy... you can keep track of the buoyancy of the debris as we reel you back to safety.

Let's say you germinate a seed in a peat plug and it gets a taproot going and then rots out again. Welp. The only thing you think you're using that countless other people aren't using is your water. Test that water; set the data aside.
Start over with a different water source. Test it now if you want; set the data aside - what's that data telling you that you do know already? Nothing. Maybe that it's different than the water you were using, but you have no basis to make the assumption that that's going to be your impacting variable.. you're dabbling in anecdotes already; in blind assumptions based off of random information.
You germinate another seed in a peat plug and it rots out again. Well, fark. What now?
Okay, where is the peat plug? And what factors impact that locale?
Did you track your ppfd? RH? Temp? How about your VOCs? Is there a fan? Ducting? Microclimates? Microbes? aaaggggh... who knows! Shit. Now we're drowning again.
So, how many times are you going to make micro-adjustments until you do know? How many different sets of numbers are you going to have to compare until you find the equilibrium?

It will drive you nuts.
I promise you that those numbers will only make sense in the hindsight of a successful grow, make even more sense of the numbers that made an unsuccessful grow and, ultimately, the correlation of the two.
For now, trust our oral traditions so we can relieve you of some of that frustration - we've already run the googolplex of variables over our 4000-year relationship with the plant.

 

[SweetLeafGrow]

Hat tip to all the experts who help the beginner, like me. You guys seriously rock!

 

[Aqua Man]

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, and I realize this is very situational, but this right here is a prime example of why actually testing, vs just randomly assuming things based on 'random internet knowledge' can be vital when trying to gain an understanding of what's going on in someone's own system.



If Moe had blindly believed and followed the general knowledge thrown around on the net, he would have believed that after 2-3 days, all that H2O2 would have completely broken down in his system. However, him doing actual testing of how much sterilization agent remained in his system proved contradictory to that common belief.

Had he just simply blindly followed this belief without actually testing his unique environment/system to confirm those assumptions and instead just assumed it had all broken down and then introduced his beneficial bacteria into his system, he would have incorrectly assumed he had properly inoculated his system, when in fact all that beneficial bacteria would have been eradicated by the high levels of sterilization agent that remained in his system.

In this example - it's a good thing he actually did testing himself to learn how long it truly was remaining in his system to confirm the levels were at 0, before introducing the beneficial bacteria, or he could have ended up in a situation where he's assuming things are good to go, when in reality, the levels weren't where they needed to be.

He wasn’t using it in his system… he was cleaing an empty system… thats where we were miscommunicating… he is right in his use…. dont make the mistake of not understanding the context because in a system with plants it will NOT be the same

 

[Aqua Man]

No, I fully understand he was using it to clean his system. My point remains valid - he was cleaning it to use it, and was checking to ensure his levels were at 0 so he could add the beneficial bacteria.

Had he attempted to inoculate that system and use it without checking to ensure his H2O2 levels were at zero before doing so - he would have killed off that beneficial bacteria.

Ok this is just to all over the place for me…

i understand exactly how it works and why.

But you run sterile systems and what im saying is dont confuse the cleaning of an empty system with having the same results in a running system with plants.

i think im just gonna duck out of trying to explain all these different ins and outs and the context’s. Its has nothing to do with validity and everything to do with the context and type of use. This discussion has be extremely over simplified and i dont have the patience to explain all the differences

 

[hm7]

Ok this is just to all over the place for me…

i understand exactly how it works and why.

But you run sterile systems and what im saying is dont confuse the cleaning of an empty system with having the same results in a running system with plants.

i think im just gonna duck out of trying to explain all these different ins and outs and the context’s.

Sorry - Just ignore me. I clearly don't know anything about any of this and am confusing myself.

No matter what I say or try to explain, I just can't win here. Even the guy who (imo was trolling me) by telling me my issues were because I didn't have enough calmag, when this issue was clearly unrelated to that - was getting praise/support.


I appreicate your advice, help, and patience Aqua Man - truly. Thank you, and sorry for my ignorance, and stupidity. Clearly, I am frustrated in my attempts to learn and understand, and ... that's not improving.

 

[Aqua Man]

Sorry - Just ignore me. I clearly don't know anything about any of this and am confusing myself.

It’s nobody’s fault. Its just there is a shit ton to the subject and im thin on concentration and patience to explain is all. Like all things cannabis the real understanding comes from a very deep discussion i just dont have the energy for. If anyone ahould apologize for that its me

 

[hm7]

It’s nobody’s fault. Its just there is a shit ton to the subject and im thin on concentration and patience to explain is all. Like all things cannabis the real understanding comes from a very deep discussion i just dont have the energy for. If anyone ahould apologize for that its me

Nah it's all good. I'm sorry for coming off like an ass, when I was just trying to understand and felt my logic behind things made sense. Clearly I was mistaken, about a great number of things. In either case, I never expected my hand to be held. I was just trying to understand the source of my problems.

Appreciate your help. Take care.

 

[Aqua Man]

Basically id clean the system as @Moe.Red describes and then pick sterile or live and establish a good healthy seedling… that should solve your issues and good luck man. Just stick to it and it will come. If going sterile a great way to see the difference is the strips that Moe mentioned

 

[Moe.Red]

He wasn’t using it in his system… he was cleaing an empty system… thats where we were miscommunicating… he is right in his use…. dont make the mistake of not understanding the context because in a system with plants it will NOT be the same

Yes, we are saying the same thing. And yes we overcomplicated the crap out of this.

H2O2 at high doses can remain measurable a very long time. Not like in the bottle time, but week(s).
Small doses can get used quickly with a high biologic load. This means you will most likely need to trend dosages up as roots grow to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

That's what I should have said pages ago and left it alone.

 

[hm7]

Basically id clean the system as @Moe.Red describes and then pick sterile or live and establish a good healthy seedling… that should solve your issues and good luck man. Just stick to it and it will come. If going sterile a great way to see the difference is the strips that Moe mentioned

I'm sure in time it will come, if for no other reason beyond my own stubbornness.


Yes, I will be going sterile this round again, but using H2O2 instead of chlorine this time, as well as continuing top feeding per your excellent recommendation (I truly think this was the missing key!). I've already picked up those strips Moe mentioned, and will absolutely be conducting my own tests with them once the plants are in the system to see know and verify how long H2O2 truly remains active in my system, and at the required levels.

Testing certainly can't hurt; it can only let me know if I need to add it more or less often than the general blind recommendation of "every 3 days" to hit and maintain 5ppm. If it breaks down and levels drop to 0ppm in 1-3 days, great! If it stays in the system longer, then I can accurately calculate how much to add and how often - to maintain levels of 5ppm and avoid having it build up over time, potentially harming the roots due to excessive levels.



I'm still just absolutely blown away by the amount of push back I've received simply for wanting to verify information by running some basic tests myself on my own actual system in my own unique environment. I'm truly shocked. I would have expected a completely different response, especially from those who are heavily into this at a more of a methodical/scientific level, and I'm sure there are some very experienced growers who take things beyond just 'plant feel' and get down into the nitty gritty of things at the finest levels - especially when it comes to hydro, which just by it's very nature requires the understanding and manipulation of many variables, vs something like a basic super-soil, water-only grow.

I think it's hilarious that when Moe is talking about the various tests he's doing (some literally the exact same as I've been wanting to do on my own) - everyone thinks it's great, asks questions, and contributes meaningful responses back toward his findings, yet when I expressed interest in wanting to run similar tests to verify the sterilization agent levels in my own system and environment, it's met with resounding push-back. I really did not expect that. It's quite funny.

 

[hm7]

Yes, we are saying the same thing. And yes we overcomplicated the crap out of this.

H2O2 at high doses can remain measurable a very long time. Not like in the bottle time, but week(s).
Small doses can get used quickly with a high biologic load. This means you will most likely need to trend dosages up as roots grow to maintain the same level of effectiveness.

That's what I should have said pages ago and left it alone.

This is awesome! Thank you for the detailed explanation. I appreciate it.

 

[Aqua Man]

I'm sure in time it will come, if for no other reason beyond my own stubbornness.


Yes, I will be going sterile this round again, but using H2O2 instead of chlorine this time, as well as continuing top feeding per your excellent recommendation (I truly think this was the missing key!). I've already picked up those strips Moe mentioned, and will absolutely be conducting my own tests with them once the plants are in the system to see know and verify how long H2O2 truly remains active in my system, and at the required levels.

Testing certainly can't hurt; it can only let me know if I need to add it more or less often than the general blind recommendation of "every 3 days" to hit and maintain 5ppm. If it breaks down and levels drop to 0ppm in 1-3 days, great! If it stays in the system longer, then I can accurately calculate how much to add and how often to keep them at 5ppm and avoid having it build up over time, potentially harming the roots due to excessive levels.



I'm still just absolutely blown away by the amount of push back I've received simply for wanting to verify information by running some basic tests myself on my own actual system in my own unique environment. I'm truly shocked. I would have expected a completely different response, especially from those who are heavily into this at a more of a methodical/scientific level, and I'm sure there are some very experienced growers who take things beyond just 'plant feel' and get down into the nitty gritty of things at the finest levels - especially when it comes to hydro, which just by it's very nature requires the understanding and manipulation of many variables, vs something like a basic super-soil, water-only grow.

I think it's hilarious that when Moe is talking about the various tests he's doing (some literally the exact same as I've been wanting to do on my own) - everyone thinks it's great, asks questions, and contributes meaningful responses back toward his findings, yet when I expressed interest in wanting to run similar tests to verify the sterilization agent levels in my own system and environment, it's met with resounding push-back. I really did not expect that. It's quite funny.

No push back… just attempts to clarify gone wrong