Question about veganics

[CT Guy]

I wasted minutes of my life reading the first 5 pages. One of the stupider and more useless threads going. All of these ideals based on nothing.

Buddhist monks who devote themselves to not harming anyone, eat honey. Are you not going to eat food from your vegetable garden because worms shit in the ground? I have a friend with chickens who throws the shit from the ground into her composter and spreads it around. If a chicken walks through her veggie garden and takes a shit, will a vegan not eat the vegetables?


Dumbest thread I've read in a long time. Props.

FWIW, i'm on my fourth organic grow , compost teas, mycchos, diotomic hummus, the whole 9 yards and I'm not seeing any radical difference in bud quality over properly grown chem ferts. The screw up factor for organics is lower and it's easier to make good weed, but I'm not seeing a difference in ash color, flavor or smoothness.
Sounds more like religion and less like facts.

A good grower can grow superb weed with chemicals and a bad grower can screw up a veganics or organics grow. I'm giving organics two more grows with a familiar strain until I make a decision. Veg time is longer, yields are smaller. Smoke is nice, but so far , not different enough for me to be sold that it "tastes better and chem ferts have a chemmy taste."

I read that enough that I set out to see for myself. So far, it's easier, but not better.

Joker,

I would disagree with your post for a few reasons.

1. There are studies that show nutrition levels and sugar levels (brix) are higher in organically grown produce vs conventional methods.

2. Conventional methods are not sustainable and tax the environment through damage to our drinking water and soil quality.

3. You're supporting a horrible industry that's run by companies like Monsanto.

4. I think organics is harder at first because you have to know a little bit about soil to get started. With chemicals, you're doing nothing more than reading a label and then identifying deficiencies. With organics you have to learn to feed the microbes (which to me is a minor point, but I think it does take more work to get a good crop for the absolute beginner).

5. I know people that get just as good of yields with organics as with chemicals, it just takes a bit more time and knowledge.

6. No need to flush your plants.

7. And more importantly, flavor aside, you're not poisoning your body with organics.

But, whatever you choose to do is a personal decision, I'm not going to attack you for it. Those are just some of the reasons why I think organic is important.

Cheers,
CT

 

[Seamaiden]

While I can't say that my own senses are the best barometer, I can taste differences, and I believe others can, too. Much more importantly to me at this particular time is how I'm trying to apply my knowledge universally around my own landscape. Maybe it's just because I can, but I can definitely taste the difference between my organically grown tomatoes and the hydroponic shit that's sold upcountry and in the markets. Perhaps it's just that I don't know how to work with the chemicals very well, but again, being able to do *that* isn't actually very important to me at this time.

But, I needed to come back and say that vancerz has posted up the exact same fish powder that I have. Is that synonymous with hydrolysate?

Would aquarium water be usable in the veganic ideology?

 

[dextr0]

Would aquarium water be usable in the vegan ideology?

I think you ask 100 people youll get a whole bunch of answers. Some incredibly simple, some incredibly complex; to the point of being really stupid...to some good ideas.

Do Vegans eat fish? Im sure you will find some that will inevitably find some kind of reasoning to. But for the most part I would think they would avoid anything that is an animal, had a face, etc. Regular shit that we should have considered before posting.

I think we should use common sense here. (I wasn't specifically saying u Sea, im just sayin im sure u would have fish, and fish shit im sure isnt Vegan)
----------------------------------------

I dont usually get involved with things but if some one wants to go out there way and do specific things while growing, that should be their thing.

One of u asked why someone should avoid all the xtra sources of nutrients...because they want to.
Biodynamics was brought up as being eccentric, and that alot of it borders on religious type followings...
Most growers I know feel that strongly about there growing techs, that border on Religious zeal. Defy there ideals and see how long u stay friends.
For centuries agriculture was closely involved with LIFE/LIVING activities and in that way got to be of course involved with religious aspects, if thats what u wanna call them.

Bottom line of this long ass ramble, let people have something pure to work with, if thats what they are looking for. After that has been set and ESTABLISHED tinkering can follow for those who wish to do so.

Anything that brings growers to our cannabis plant in a positive way is good to me.

Ive been working on my Plant Ferments for a little while now and I have no doubt that if someone wants to go 100% veganic, its possible. Would he be making or selling a inferior product to some chemical OR animal based (which most of the time contains inorganic compounds or turns into inorganic compounds) nutrients? IMVHO no.

Let people what they consider a pure (kosher comes to mind every time I use this word) way of growing if they choose to grow.

 

[The Joker]

For centuries, famine and starvation were common. Life expectancy was low and most farmers barely got by . Subsistence living.
The revolution? Fertilizer!
I used to have an article written by a Nobel laureate who dedicated his life to improving farming to end starvation. His observation was that in order to end hunger, organics are not an option and that kind of growing is a privilege of the rich.
Overuse of pesticide doesn't kill microbes on contact. It feeds them so much they overpopulate and consume everything in the soil then die. Just like people.

Compared to most humans on this planet, I'm filthy rich able to buy Peruvian bat guano and diatomic humus for $$$$ a gallon.
Yeah, my home grown tomatoes taste better! I can grow varieties than don't last on a shelf and can't handle being shipped. Yellow stripe and heirloom ! Farmers supplying supermarkets don't have that privilege. They breed tomatoes to survive shipping and storage but taste is lacking. If you grew the
Strain of tomato they use it would still taste like shit.

I've been landscaping organically for a decade because it's less work.
But if I lived in Africa and had to feed my kids off a small plot, I would be using ferts.

But since I'm a privileged American making more in a week than most humans make I'm a year, I can afford the luxury of organics.

When people get all religious about saving the planet with me and ask me what I am doing. I just tell them I don't have kids.

Hey , Mormons believe a god spoke to them from a hat. People believe a lot of things . The good of Growing organically indoors is neutralized by electrical consumption, petroleum based product containers, plastics and toxic bulb waste.
Oh, but it's organic.

I'm not on a high horse but if you want to take that viewpoint, just being alive is destroying the planet. Compared to the electricity we use and the water we flush and the gas we consume, a bottle of ferts used by pot growers is small change.

And yes, I grow organically but just don't buy into all the emotional ideology. It's just pride.

 

[Seamaiden]

Not the planet, my friend, just my little place in it. I'm not sure what you're aiming for right now, did you really read the whole thread? Sure, there is a LOT of crap it's comprised of, but what you're pulling it back to was, I thought, done on page 1.

What you're bringing up brings us into a whole other sphere, sphere of influence, etcetera. A guy in Africa farming his little plot isn't going to be buying tomatoes, grapes or roses from Chile, while people like you and I might, and perhaps we need to reexamine that aspect of our economy. Again, though, huge digression from the main topic at hand.

But, back to the point, let me ask you this--what difference does it really make why people do things the way they choose to? It's all transitory and doesn't actually mean a fucking thing in the grand scheme of things. We only do things because it feels good or is driven by instinct. So what? What difference does it *really* make either way?

 

[altitudefarmer]

Do Vegans eat fish? Im sure you will find some that will inevitably find some kind of reasoning to.
I think we should use common sense here. (I wasn't specifically saying u Sea, im just sayin im sure u would have fish, and fish shit im sure isnt Vegan)
----------------------------------------

This made me smile. I tried a vegetarian stint for over a year (this girl from Berkeley was SUPER hot...lol), and I just couldn't give up the occasional trip for sushi. I was informed that I was a vegaquarian...

 

[Shredder]

This made me smile. I tried a vegetarian stint for over a year (this girl from Berkeley was SUPER hot...lol), and I just couldn't give up the occasional trip for sushi. I was informed that I was a vegaquarian...

I feel better now, I thought I was the only one that ate veggy for carnal reasons. Even then, I did eat fish for both enjoyment and ease of finding restaurant meals in the Midwest. In the end though, I found it boring after the relationship ended, and the swelling went down, and went back to well rounded foods. It's funny how we let ourselves get boxed in, with our own rules........shredder

 

[Bubblemang]

This made me smile. I tried a vegetarian stint for over a year (this girl from Berkeley was SUPER hot...lol), and I just couldn't give up the occasional trip for sushi. I was informed that I was a vegaquarian...

lol, very similar experience for me. Super hot model in berkeley, vegan, made me go vegan while we were together. I started reading vegan nutrition books. Then started growing without the poops. Vegaquarian, lol.

100% agree with dextr0.
:passingjoint:

 

[CT Guy]

For centuries, famine and starvation were common. Life expectancy was low and most farmers barely got by . Subsistence living.
The revolution? Fertilizer!
I used to have an article written by a Nobel laureate who dedicated his life to improving farming to end starvation. His observation was that in order to end hunger, organics are not an option and that kind of growing is a privilege of the rich.
Overuse of pesticide doesn't kill microbes on contact. It feeds them so much they overpopulate and consume everything in the soil then die. Just like people.

Compared to most humans on this planet, I'm filthy rich able to buy Peruvian bat guano and diatomic humus for $$$$ a gallon.
Yeah, my home grown tomatoes taste better! I can grow varieties than don't last on a shelf and can't handle being shipped. Yellow stripe and heirloom ! Farmers supplying supermarkets don't have that privilege. They breed tomatoes to survive shipping and storage but taste is lacking. If you grew the
Strain of tomato they use it would still taste like shit.

I've been landscaping organically for a decade because it's less work.
But if I lived in Africa and had to feed my kids off a small plot, I would be using ferts.

But since I'm a privileged American making more in a week than most humans make I'm a year, I can afford the luxury of organics.

When people get all religious about saving the planet with me and ask me what I am doing. I just tell them I don't have kids.

Hey , Mormons believe a god spoke to them from a hat. People believe a lot of things . The good of Growing organically indoors is neutralized by electrical consumption, petroleum based product containers, plastics and toxic bulb waste.
Oh, but it's organic.

I'm not on a high horse but if you want to take that viewpoint, just being alive is destroying the planet. Compared to the electricity we use and the water we flush and the gas we consume, a bottle of ferts used by pot growers is small change.

And yes, I grow organically but just don't buy into all the emotional ideology. It's just pride.

In China and India they've been quite successful for thousands of years at farming without chemical fertilizers. It's more or less a closed system, where you feed the animals the grain you grow and and use their manures as nutrients for your plants. Watched Food, Inc. a few months ago, there's so good examples in there.

You are talking about the issue of overpopulation, which is completely unrelated to the organic vs chemical argument.

On a side note, my company is currently working on a deal with the country of Ethiopia, to get compost tea brewers and other organic amendments into their fields. Their soils are so depleted that they are looking at ways to improve them. Chemicals do nothing to build the soil and are completely unsustainable.

Organics isn't a luxury or expensive. Chemicals have many hidden environmental costs, whether your recognize them or not. I know farmers that grow all their crops and their weed for pennies. Local, sustainable, and ultimately vegetarian is really the direction our society needs to go if you want to address issues like overpopulation and fossil fuels.

Your original post was about organics versus chemicals in growing cannabis though, which is what I responded to, not the welfare of subsistence farmers in Africa.

Again, you can make the personal choice to use chemicals, but I don't think that choosing to be organic is a bunch of hippie emotional bullshit either. There's some very succinct reasons to go organic, and if you ever met me in person you would see I'm the farthest thing from a conventional hippie.

 

[Bubblemang]

On a side note, my company is currently working on a deal with the country of Ethiopia, to get compost tea brewers and other organic amendments into their fields.

Link to company? :)

 

[dextr0]

Bubble have u looked into any Vegan sources of silica? I saw u had mentioned that earlier in the posts, and just wondered if you ever tried to source it somewhere different then bottles.

The more I think about it (and oddly enough I think alot about what people say on the farm from day to day) the more I see what a struggle anyone wanting to go vegan and grow vegan would be.

I think more than likely people would just have to resort to what jaykush (from icmag, Ive looked at your posts, head nod to ya.) does and grow there own.
I dont know what I was clicking on but I ran into a site that was stating what products were kosher to eat...and this was religion related, that religion has been around for centuries and hence has an established view of what is kosher. But so many products show up you really gotta watch whats going on, this is your job if your going to want to take this specific path.

Anyway as an example im going to use silica to see what we can find and which plants cotain silica in it. As a basic rule im going to tell you to look up your substances. We looked up tricantonol and it is not water soluble, so how does it relate to vegan growing. Well you are going to have to use an vegan organic sovient to extract because tricantonol is a wax. So know what your working with. Its work, but Its your choice.


Dr. Duke's
Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases

Plants Containing SILICA
Ordered by quantity

Species Part Quantity Reference
Oryza sativa L. -- Rice Plant 140,000 ppm DUKE1992A
Equisetum arvense L. -- Field Horsetail, Horsetail Plant 97,000 ppm DUKE1992A
Tephrosia purpurea PERS. -- Purple Tephrosia, Wild Indigo Leaf 21,900 ppm DUKE1992A
Melaleuca leucadendra (L.) L. -- Cajeput Wood 9,500 ppm DUKE1992A
Pueraria montana subsp. var. lobata (WILLD.) MAESEN & S. M. ALMEIDA -- Kudsu, Kudzu Shoot 5,200 ppm DUKE1992A
Galeopsis segetum NECK. -- Downy Hemp Nettle Shoot 6,000-10,000 ppm BIS
Mangifera indica L. -- Mango Seed 4,100 ppm DUKE1992A
Piper nigrum L. -- Black Pepper, Pepper, White Pepper Fruit 3,900 ppm DUKE1992A
Phyllanthus emblica L. -- Emblic, Myrobalan Fruit 1,163 ppm DUKE1992A
Linum usitatissimum L. -- Flax, Linseed Seed 608 ppm DUKE1992A
Camellia sinensis (L.) KUNTZE -- Tea Leaf 240 ppm DUKE1992A
Musa x paradisiaca L. -- Banana, Plantain Fruit 238 ppm DUKE1992A

Lets look at the top two sources:

Oryza sativa L. -- Rice Plant 140,000 ppm DUKE1992A
Equisetum arvense L. -- Field Horsetail, Horsetail Plant 97,000 ppm DUKE1992A

With the Rice you can get a usable substance out of the hulls that have been made to ash. This would be an acceptable method under what I see vegan is (please correct if wrong, again assuming u grew your own rice or got it from some other vegan source that u trust).

The method can be looked up over the interned by anyone.

The second is horsetail and I have made a post somewhere (dont remember where right now) about making an organic silica foliar. If I remember correctly, which was weird because I had never heard of foliar feeding silica...anyway I stop there because the other ingredient u need is HONEY, which is used as an emulsifier but is not Vegan.

 

[Shredder]

Bubble have u looked into any Vegan sources of silica? I saw u had mentioned that earlier in the posts, and just wondered if you ever tried to source it somewhere different then bottles.

The more I think about it (and oddly enough I think alot about what people say on the farm from day to day) the more I see what a struggle anyone wanting to go vegan and grow vegan would be.

I think more than likely people would just have to resort to what jaykush (from icmag, Ive looked at your posts, head nod to ya.) does and grow there own.
I dont know what I was clicking on but I ran into a site that was stating what products were kosher to eat...and this was religion related, that religion has been around for centuries and hence has an established view of what is kosher. But so many products show up you really gotta watch whats going on, this is your job if your going to want to take this specific path.

What Jay is doing is woefully inadaquit, it has serious shortcomings. There's no promotion, no hype, no mention of a revolutionary way of growing, no kewl name, no book deal, no oaksterdam degree, it will never work....he he.......shredder

 

[dextr0]

What Jay is doing is woefully inadaquit, it has serious shortcomings. There's no promotion, no hype, no mention of a revolutionary way of growing, no kewl name, no book deal, no oaksterdam degree, it will never work....he he.......shredder

Explain.

 

[Bubblemang]

Explain.

He's just talking shit. lol
Haters gotta hate.

 

[dextr0]

He's just talking shit. lol
Haters gotta hate.

If he has something valid to contribute, Ill listen. I put it out there like that so that the balls in his hands now...c what the man has to say.

 

[Shredder]

I'm comparing what Jay is doing vrs veganics.

I'm saying veganics is all about promotion and hype, using bottled product lines. IE trying to capitalize on a made up concept.

Jay uses rock solid science, with an eye towards sustainability using what is right outside his back door. Without any promotion, or hype, and actually cutting edge stuff.....

BTW I don't hate veganics, I just think it is pretty silly.......shredder

 

[Seamaiden]

Dextr0, how about just using silicaceous sands and letting the soil food web do its thing? Type can be roughly determined using two tests, vinegar (will make calcareous substances fizzle big time, lots of fun) and visual using a loupe of at least 10x magnification--silicaceous sand particles tend to be very sharply pointed, which is why it's a terrible idea to use silicate sand as a substrate if you're housing SHARKS, especially shark pups. Abrades their skin, infection sets in and they die.

 

[dextr0]

Dextr0, how about just using silicaceous sands and letting the soil food web do its thing? Type can be roughly determined using two tests, vinegar (will make calcareous substances fizzle big time, lots of fun) and visual using a loupe of at least 10x magnification--silicaceous sand particles tend to be very sharply pointed, which is why it's a terrible idea to use silicate sand as a substrate if you're housing SHARKS, especially shark pups. Abrades their skin, infection sets in and they die.

Very good question Sea. In reality I think thats exactly what you would be doing with carbonized rice grain hulls, as when u finish the silica is one of the main things that holds structure of ashes when almost all plant matter is burned.

Now the whole next part of this will be theoretical, so bare with me and feel free to correct anything u see wrong. I for one am not expert on silica.

My theory goes that if u use other plant matter as a begaining source it will be in the particle size that the plant can more easily use. Take for example sand like you said. My benies would have to be strong enough to break that down. I dont know about u but I just think that sand is gonna take awhile to break down. Same with Diatomaceous earth (which by the way is used in the same way you are describing the sand, to keep gnats and other insects from pots), unless its very fine.
All in all u must have the right benies to break silica up. Theres a thread here on the farm labeled The wonderful world of Microbiology. With a little searching you will find exactly what microbes your soil will need to break silica down.

Let me throw a personal example out there real quick too. I compost a little and one thing I know is bamboo takes for ever to break down. I mean I turned, and waited, and waited. I was like wtf? I read a little and looked like the silica content was what kept it from composting like most other material.

So considering that remember most growers do not recycle there soil for lack of know how or just they have been told not to for spread of germs. So benies are not reused, but did they have long enough time to break down what we put into the soil. Just as importantly was it broke down in time for our plant to receive the nutrients when we wanted them applied, for instance if u wanted silica during veg, was it broke down in time to be used during veg.

All this should be thought of, IMVHO.

 

[Bubblemang]

just thought I'd say that UP uses bottled silica, something that I have no experience with. The reason being that he is using it to emulsify the neem oil for his ipm, so he needs it concentrated and pure. It's a foliar thing.

When I brought up silica, it was my way of reminding UP that he may be using bottled grow store products as well.

 

[Seamaiden]

Dex, to be clear, I mix the sand I use in thoroughly, as I did with the pool-grade DE I bought. I figured, why not? See, I'm not feeding my plants, I'm feeding my soil. As long as I do that, I succeed, every time.

I poosh too leemeet, every time!