Question about veganics

[dextr0]

Its just another way to grow. Im not saying its better or worse. What proof of what do u need.

 

[Shredder]

Its just another way to grow. Im not saying its better or worse. What proof of what do u need.

See post 158. And thanks for being civil......shredder

 

[dextr0]

Frivolous shit? You mean this whole thread? If veganics is something special, or new, or anything we just have to try, prove it! If it is based in reality using accepted science I'll listen. If i think it's silly i'll damn sure say it, thank you. This subject is like only watering on even days, just silly. Why or how does placing limits on your choices beneficial. Call that hate if you want, silly boy......shredder

Im just now seeing how our ideology is fitting into our actions. This is just another way for people to fit in and belong to something. Let them do there thing.

Some people need limits, some need freedom.

 

[Shredder]

I'm all about making responsible choices, but see no need to promote or in any way capitalize on them. And that in a nutshell is veganics.

Growing with weeds from your yard is way cool. Buying bottled weeds from hydro central not so cool. I have a dandelion flower fermented plant extract brewing now along with a whole dandelion fpe, I make lavender tea for pest control. But I feel no need to cash in, I feel it is much better to learn and help others.

I think the "professor Matt rise" the god father of veganics, is all about capitalizing on a concept that was not really his or is even special. YMMV I know some worship veganics on other forums, maybe it's me. But I can be convinced if I seen something besides smoke and mirrors........shredder

 

[CHILKaT]

"Vegan organics is, briefly, any system of cultivation that avoids artificial chemicals and sprays, livestock manures and animal remains from slaughterhouses."

This is pretty simple and straight forward and by that definition you could use greensand and worm castings. However, it is more complicated in that it is based on a "do no harm" philosophy. If you buy mineral products, then they are being mined, and this is harmful. If you purchase worm castings, they are likely being fed on livestock manure, again this is not considered vegan although it is organic.

Think sustainable permaculture, living soil, diy with a "do no harm" attitude and you shouldn't have problems.

I make my own worm castings and compost. I also make my own fish meal from harvesting salmon off the riverbanks after a salmon run when they have finished their lifecycle, spawned and died. I harvest my own seaweed from that which has dislodged and washed up on shore. I harvest my own peat moss and humus from the forest floor of my own property. I reuse my soil. Is this veganic, by definition, yes. Some would argue that I use animal products, i.e. fish meal, but again, this is not slaughterhouse, and this isn't mass farming of live fish for the purpose of fertilizer. Not everyone has the benefit of living where I do, but most people can create their own soil mix and compost, you don't need expensive mass produced fertilizer or amendments to create veganic or organic living soils, just do no harm and KISS.

 

[Shredder]

Your methods are admirable, a lot to like there, truely. But vegan? not so much. The name vegan implies something, that i don't see in veganics. Maybe concious growing, or local organics, something long those lines. But then buying a line of nutrients does not fit there, either. Whatever.

I lifted this from wiki
Veganism is the personal practice of eliminating the use of animal products. Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only.[1]

The term "vegan" was coined in England in 1944 by Donald Watson, co-founder of the British Vegan Society, to mean "non-dairy vegetarian"; the society also opposed the use of eggs as food.[2] It extended its definition in 1951 to mean "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals," and in 1960 H. Jay Dinshah started the American Vegan Society, linking the movement to the Jainist concept of ahimsa, the avoidance of violence against living things.
.........shredder

 

[CHILKaT]

Lol, well I'm also not claiming to be vegan or growing vegan. But I don't kill anything to use as fertilizer, nor do I pay someone else to do so. I never use store bought soil, amendments or ferts. I don't need to. I don't exploit living things to grow my garden, but I do exploit the fruits of my labor.

Funny thing is, you can't link vegan to the avoidance of harm to living things, as plants are living things and vegans exploit them for food, kill them and eat them. Unless we become like fungus and feed off of dead decaying matter, humans will kill something to eat.

 

[Seamaiden]

Like I said earlier in the thread, it's a misguided attempt at copying Jainism.
I exploit living things all day long to grow my garden. They're the soil food web, and I needs them!

 

[CHILKaT]

Like I said earlier in the thread, it's a misguided attempt at copying Jainism.
I exploit living things all day long to grow my garden. They're the soil food web, and I needs them!

Damn Sea, I give my soil critters free room, board, meals and lots of love! Little basterds better be freaking happy. If that's exploitation, then I want to be exploited too! hehe

 

[dextr0]

Shredder I will give one more example in hopes you see my side. It is not about having a better way for you or me, its about having a way for someone who is seeking for a way.

You see it as something that not only hinders but also is just something that someone or people are trying to capitalize and make money off of.

I certainly do not mind if someone makes money off of the knowledge that he has but ANYONE has the ability to look into. EVERYONE HAS TO FEED THERE FAMILY TOO. If you live in the same world I do, rent isnt paid you and your family need to step...wherever yall are going. I believe everyone should have there specialty and get paid for it.

I dont see you tooting how you use HUMANUER or your urine.
After all we dont want to limit our choices now. Admittedly LOTS see this as extreme, but someone opposed to meat or even handling it is also extreme. Give anyone who seeks a way. As long as they arnt shoving it down YOUR throat, or your loved ones throats, who are they harming?

And I only post this because your very adamant about being anti-veganic.

Im very adamant about letting everyone have the chance to grow a plant, so that maybe...we got one more person on our team.

 

[Von]

I didn't realize that jay was focused on veganic organics, I've read a lot of what he does but I don't recall ever actually noticing that being specifically his focus. I've always interpreted him to be a "use what you can find in nature" kind of guy, which could include deer poo, I mean if it works, yeah?

Hey seamaiden, how is it going? didn´t know you were over here. Jay does not use manures and such. Most of what he uses is plant based and he produces himself. It is similar to Biodynamics but not as strict. I believe the only amendment he has purchased in the last few years was Azomite. He actively produces various types of composts and various forms of microbial teas......EM1, Lactobacillus and things of this sort. He is a big advocate of stinging nettles etc.

He is very much so, just ask him. He is a great guy. He drinks less haterade than most of these guys...

Now Rize I have been posting with Jay for many years now and to my recollection I have never heard him say that.

 

[Von]

I saw that, but the fact is that you (repeatedly, didn't know til I searched) posted an article that appears to be based on partial and misunderstood information. Look up the veracity of the claims made in it for yourself, don't just take my word for it. However, I came across more than one instance of this exact information coming through you, much more easily found (first hits) through you than the original author. Either way, are my questions any less valid? I don't think so, but I am always willing to do a little footwork before I say anything, just to be sure, because that claim really caught my eye and I had to know.

Then I started looking for published papers, the kind with scientific veracity, the kind that talk about how the research and/or experiments were performed, the basic hypothesis that was used to develop the research/experiment, what other research/experiments that may be related are being relied upon, etc, etc. These are the kinds of papers that other scientists and researchers cite when developing their own hypotheses. Because, if it's true, if I could give myself, my family or friends something as bad as spongiform encephalopathy, I wanna know, for sure, ya know? So I started using the best tool I have at my disposal before I started making calls for people to give me their online uni library passwords--Google Scholar.

And so where I found myself was with these meals being discussed in conjunction with these disease occurrences when these meals are used as feeds. I found one paper talking about the bone and blood meals used as animal feed not being acceptable because feeding bovine parts to bovines, etcetera (because the spongiform encephalopathy doesn't always seem to cross species) increased rates of the disease, so this practice was stopped. But, I expected to find these papers, this stuff is well-known.

More significantly, I could not find a single paper that discussed either disease, mad cow or Creutzfeldt-Jakob, being passed to humans through the use of animal meals to feed plants. Not one. If you've got one that's like that, that has veracity, that's published science, please, lay it on me because I truly want to know.

PS: That wasn't a flaming, that was calling it like I see it. I didn't call anyone names, I didn't begin to make any other claims about you or the person you've based the previous post upon, nor did I denigrate anyone except to say the truth--bad information is being passed around. Does truth = flaming for you?

Great post Seamaiden!!!

This is EXACTLY what I have seen in this boy also. His vegan information came from one of my peers at IC last winter. Before that Matt could not tell you one little bit of information concerning vegan organics. Not that he has much to say about it now.

And no Matt I am not trolling you. I am just informing people that you do not have a clue. After reading this thread I think most of the posting members have that idea also.

I think I will make it a point to be a better posting member here.

V

 

[Von]

I'm comparing what Jay is doing vrs veganics.

I'm saying veganics is all about promotion and hype, using bottled product lines. IE trying to capitalize on a made up concept.

Jay uses rock solid science, with an eye towards sustainability using what is right outside his back door. Without any promotion, or hype, and actually cutting edge stuff.....

BTW I don't hate veganics, I just think it is pretty silly.......shredder

I would have to agreee with Shredder here. First, veganics LOL is just a marketed work much similar to Organic. Which is a marketing word also. Now if all of you did not know it Rize has a degree in Marketing......and that is it.

Now as far a Jay goes his concept of growing Naturally, that is the way we term it which is correct and nothing more. He not only uses things out his back door he produces these things. He also collects and uses native soils from the forest areas where he lives.

And shreeder is also correct in saying that Jay uses no hype or self promotion as some do here. He does not make up terms to fit his growing style or sell his ideas as none of us do.

He simply places the pieces into the puzzle and lets the Soil Food Web do its thing as it has done for 450 billion years. Nothing has changed. He places in the key materials to bu utilized by the different plants he is growing. He as well as many of us use cover crops and companion planting to benefit his garden.

What he does is much more in depth than that but I thought I would give you some insight from someone that actually knows him. Not someone that throws his name around for self promotion.

IMHO, Seamadain is following the correct path. She is placing in the pieces to the puzzle ie composts, rock powders and compost teas and letting the sfw do its thing. Although it is some what limited in indoor growing all the same it is the correct path for natural growing indoors. I have a great respect for her knowledge on this subject. I have read many postings of hers at the CC and now here. Her thinking is correct and traveling in the right direction.

And Rize, she sees through you as I and many others do who have done this for many, many years.

I would like to put up a quote from a very well respected member on another forum. His knowledge is vast and spot on. He does not ever promote himself and does nothing but be helpful to thousands of growers. He is formerly educated and has worked in the industry for many years.

here is the message..........quote....

My personal advice to Mr. Rize would be the following:

1. Never come to a battle of wits unarmed

2. It's better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it

3. Re-read #1 and #2 before posting anything or writing anything for publication (real or imagined)

Just trying to be helpful - as usual.

unquote.......

I do hope he will not be upset with me posting this but I do believe it is appropriate at this time to make this knowledge know.

Von

 

[Seamaiden]

Hey Von! Yep, we can thank another islander for pointing me in the direction of this place. Or not... :giggle

I hope to see more folks of your kind, and jay's, here. CT_Guy, GanjaGardener, mrbong, Blaze, globe_toker (I hope I got that nick right), et more alia than I can now remember, have all offered up some very good stuff. In the meantime, I reread an awful lot of Jay's posts. IIRC, he's getting into forestland gardening now, too. Honestly, everything he's written could make a complete book, which would be nice to take around with me.

 

[Bubblemang]

And no Matt I am not trolling you.

You are ONLY here to troll me you fucking liar.

Fuck you Von, you are a punk bitch troll. Keep my name out your mouth you little sniveling piece of shit. Yeah, I won't take your abuse here either you chode smoker. Piss off back to moding icschwag. 61 posts, and 5 of them are talking shit at me. TROLL. FUCK OFF! Get off Tim and Jim's dicks and get real you fucking troll.

http://i1194.invalid.com/albums/aa378/MattRize/DSCN0055.jpg

 

[Von]

You are ONLY here to troll me you fucking liar.

Fuck you Von, you are a punk bitch troll. Keep my name out your mouth you little sniveling piece of shit. Yeah, I won't take your abuse here either you chode smoker. Piss off back to moding icschwag. 61 posts, and 5 of them are talking shit at me. TROLL. FUCK OFF! Get off Tim and Jim's dicks and get real you fucking troll.




Wow, someone of your higher intellect I was hoping to have a nice discussion. But I guess not.

Von

 

[Bubblemang]

Wow, someone of your higher intellect I was hoping to have a nice discussion. But I guess not.

Von

you fucking troll that is such BULLSHIT. you trolled me off IC then came here to continue antagonizing me. STFU and unsub. its amazing how much shit you can talk with gypsy's dick in your mouth.

http://i1194.invalid.com/albums/aa378/MattRize/DSCN0008.jpg

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh, Jesus. Really? Come on, if you have a degree you have to have something more/better in your arsenal.

 

[Bubblemang]

Oh, Jesus. Really? Come on, if you have a degree you have to have something more/better in your arsenal.

he edits my posts and trolls me off icshwag. he gets nothing but the same level of respect in turn. don't let him get you twisted, he is my personal troll/fanboy.

 

[Von]

Matt I am simply attempting to engage you in a debate in a fair open playing field. You are correct I cannot edit here and neither can you.

If indeed y<ou had something of substance to say then by all means say it. Dispute what I have posted with your opinion and knowledge on the subject. I would have expected more from a Professor. After all you have stated in open forum that you have a degree from an out of the way garden center in NC.

I on the other hand have a Degree in Aircraft Mechanics from the US Marines and an incomplete degree in Computer Networking.

So, this debate should be an easy one for you. After all your are a Professor at OU.

I did expect better from you Matt. Such foul language.

Maybe that is why some of your posts at IC were edited. What do you think?

V