Question about veganics

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dextr0

dextr0

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I'm comparing what Jay is doing vrs veganics.

I'm saying veganics is all about promotion and hype, using bottled product lines. IE trying to capitalize on a made up concept.

Jay uses rock solid science, with an eye towards sustainability using what is right outside his back door. Without any promotion, or hype, and actually cutting edge stuff.....

BTW I don't hate veganics, I just think it is pretty silly.......shredder

So your mad because people can make money off of ignorance or convenience? Because if so your gonna be fighting that one for a while bro.
I post all kinds of shit people can do there selves to save money or at least not pass there money on the wrong shit, but convenience is what most need. Did u see that word, need.

Get that info out there, and discredit the view that it cant be done at home, or that its not as good if its not coming out of a pretty bottle. Remember tho people are gonna want u to show up, all that talk is just that...talk.

As to veganics being silly, well thats an opinion. We all got em, and you stated how u feel. No one hates u for that, but if u keep posting how your so opposed to it, its gonna get old fast.

...or maybe oppose it intellectually and with rock solid science, with an eye towards sustainability using what is right outside our back door. Without any promotion, or hype, and actually cutting edge stuff.....

just thought I'd say that UP uses bottled silica, something that I have no experience with. The reason being that he is using it to emulsify the neem oil for his ipm, so he needs it concentrated and pure. It's a foliar thing.

When I brought up silica, it was my way of reminding UP that he may be using bottled grow store products as well.

Yea, really I dont see anything wrong with buying a bottle of whatever u wanna buy. Just look into what your buying, if your that obsessed with whatever your obsessed with.

(I got your pm, Im checking it out)

Dex, to be clear, I mix the sand I use in thoroughly, as I did with the pool-grade DE I bought. I figured, why not? See, I'm not feeding my plants, I'm feeding my soil. As long as I do that, I succeed, every time.

I poosh too leemeet, every time!

^^^Thats pretty funny were u singing that?? lol.
 
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Shredder

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DextrO, not mad about anything, or anyone for that matter. I sometimes play "pretend" with my grandkids, I'm not mad about that either, but it is rather silly. Like veganics. I think professor rise is in veganics for $, like P T
Barnum was, although PT put on a nice show. I don't see how restricting your grow nutrients to vegan ( and it's arguable veganics is even vegan) makes any sense or is any improvement over organic growing, or even that different. If I learned anything in organic growing, it is diversity is good. Boxing yourself in with semantics, seems counter productive, and misleading.

I can see your covenience argument, but the shelves are already loaded with organic "solutions", no need to make up a new buzz word.

Other than the word veganics I don't see anything new, or revolutionary in it at all. But hey that's just me, ymmv as they say. And like P T said there's a sucker born every minute...........shredder
 
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Udyana Peace

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just thought I'd say that UP uses bottled silica, something that I have no experience with. The reason being that he is using it to emulsify the neem oil for his ipm, so he needs it concentrated and pure. It's a foliar thing.

When I brought up silica, it was my way of reminding UP that he may be using bottled grow store products as well.

Bubblemang

Actually that isn't true - i.e. using bottled silica. I actually buy the raw material at a pottery supply house. It's used as part of some glazes in that craft.

It's much easier to direct people to a 'bottled' product because explaining the difference between 3% of weight vs. 3% by volume isn't helpful.

RE: Rice

In the link/quote above about rice and its silica content, it's important to look at that database and see which part of a plant contains measurable levels of the element that you're looking to source and in the case of rice it's in the plant and not in the grain.

It is in the rice hulls (@ 45%) so adding this to your soil not only give you a good aeration amendment but as it breaks down it will release silica in a form that the plant can use.

HTH

UP
 
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Bubblemang

Guest
Bubblemang

Actually that isn't true - i.e. using bottled silica. I actually buy the raw material at a pottery supply house. It's used as part of some glazes in that craft.

It's much easier to direct people to a 'bottled' product because explaining the difference between 3% of weight vs. 3% by volume isn't helpful.
...
UP
That doesn't sound very food grade either, lol. :)

Hey nice to hear from you. I also caught up with you and your tear over on the organic soil subforum. Well, if anyone should be allowed to act like that, it's you. Still can't believe you brought up dude's mom, lol. But compared to rez you were polite. So when in rome ey? But seriously if you need to talk to someone holler at me. It's been a crazy couple weeks celestially.
:passingjoint:
 
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Bubblemang

Guest
Is Your Garden Vegetarian? / Alternatives to Blood Meal, Bone Meal and Fish Emulsion
August 08, 2001|By Lisa Van Cleef, Special to SF Gate

Gardeners have been fussing with fertilizers since the first human stuck a seed in soil. The goal of fertilization is to create the richest soil possible, since it is in the soil where plants draw the essential nutrients that make them grow.

Organic gardeners rely on fertilizers made from plants and animal by-products, avoiding the chemical fertilizers that have flooded the farming and gardening industries for the past 50 years. Synthetic fertilizers do nothing to support the microbial activity that makes soil and plants healthy. In fact, some of them will kill your soil.

These fertilizers also short-change your plants by supplying them only with the major elements nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, while overlooking the other 13 nutrients plants need to survive. And, if that's not enough, it's been proven that chemical fertilizers leach into our water supply much more easily than organic fertilizers, thereby polluting it.

It's no wonder many organic gardeners reject these synthetics and rely on old standbys like bone meal, blood meal and fish emulsion. But times are a-changin', and even these additives, variations of which have been used for centuries, are coming under scrutiny.

We Calls 'Em Like We Sees 'Em

Blood meal, bone meal and fish emulsion are just what they say they are: the remains of blood, bones and fish. The first two products come from cattle slaughterhouses, where bones and blood are dried, crushed and packaged for gardeners. Fish emulsion and other fish-based products are made from carcasses left over at fish-processing plants, though sometimes fish are caught specifically to be used as fertilizer.

Right about now, the vegetarian gardeners in the crowd are raising their eyebrows and squirming in their seats. Even borderline carnivores might find this information a bit jarring. Couple this with the threat of mad cow disease, which can be transmitted through bone meal and blood meal, and it's enough to get some gardeners looking for vegetarian alternatives.

Moo-Free Zone

I checked in with the folks at Palo Alto's Common Ground organic-gardening store, where founder John Jeavons has produced a pamphlet, "Recommended Organic Soil Amendments," that lists readily available organic-fertilizer alternatives and recommended quantities.

The store is the not-for-profit project of Jeavons' Ecology Action, an organization devoted to developing techniques for growing more nutritious food while simultaneously increasing the health of the soil.

According to the store's Eva Henin, Common Ground began emphasizing a vegetarian approach to fertilizers as a result of the threat of mad cow disease and not because of any vegetarian inklings. Henin quotes John Robbins, author of " The Food Revolution," who says the US meat industry talks about mad cow disease in terms of "when," not "if," the disease will hit our shores, and though the US Department of Agriculture placed import restrictions on European bone meal and blood meal in December 2000, Jeavons decided to head off any possible complications by encouraging the use of non-animal-based fertilizers.

Begin at the Beginning

Before adding anything to your soil, be it vegetarian or not, consider performing a soil test. How do you know what to add if you don't know what your soil already contains? Soil tests come in varying levels of complexity, from simple, store-bought do-it-yourself kits that will determine your soil's pH level to lab tests that will give you a full nutrient breakdown.

The San Francisco League of Urban Gardeners offers an inexpensive lab test that will reveal the most intimate details regarding your soil. The results come with complete recommendations for additives, including amounts to use. (I wish I'd followed this advice when I started my garden. When I finally got around to the test, the results provided a wealth of information that would have saved me time and money.)

For more information about soil tests, see the August 23 Green Gardener column.

The Substitutes

Whether your soil test says your garden needs potash, phosphorus or nitrogen, non-animal-based by-products are readily available at most nurseries. The following information, unless credited otherwise, is from Jeavons' pamphlet. The amounts stated are for use on a 100-square-foot garden of poor-quality clay soil in the garden's first year.

Whichever of these fertilizers you choose to use, work them into the soil a good 6 to 8 inches before you plant anything. Cut quantities back appropriately if you have a smaller garden, and feel free to experiment. As Jeavons reminds readers in his pamphlet, "Soil conditions can vary from backyard to backyard."

Compost
First and foremost in Jeavons' plan is the use of compost to improve and maintain the soil's health. A rich, black soil-like amendment made from rotted yard waste and kitchen scraps, compost feeds soil microbes that release nutrients. Nothing else provides the necessary carbohydrates and cellulose, as well as all 16 nutrients plants need.

In fact, if your soil is in good shape, he suggests you add a 1-inch layer of compost (8 cubic feet, or a dozen 5-gallon buckets), a quarter-pound of potash and a half-pound of calcium to your garden.

Supporting this advice, the July/August 2000 issue of Organic Gardening magazine included a special report on fertilizers, based on research performed at the Woods End Research Laboratory, in Mt. Vernon, Maine. The research concluded that if gardeners use a combination of compost, mulch and cover crops, they need add nothing else to their soil: If your soil is healthy and alive, it will provide plants with all the nutrients they need.

On the other hand, "Golden Gate Gardening," by Pam Peirce, recommends that you routinely add a 2-inch layer of compost with some nitrogen and phosphorus to your vegetable garden. (Ask three gardeners the same question, and I guarantee you'll get three different answers, which is why in the world of gardening, we all need to become our own authority. There are too many variables for anyone to have the definitive answer for many questions regarding your particular garden's needs.) Nitrogen

If you want to add nitrogen to your soil, try using alfalfa meal or the alfalfa pellets sold for rabbit feed, instead of blood meal or fish emulsion. Alfalfa is a quick-acting source of nitrogen, with healthy amounts of phosphorus and potash. Organic Gardening magazine called rabbit pellets "an excellent all-purpose fertilizer." Jeavons recommends adding 16 pounds of alfalfa meal to your garden.

Phosphorus

Rather than using bone meal as your source of phosphorus, try soft-rock phosphate. Dig 6 pounds into your plot.

Potash

For potash, try 1 pound of kelp meal or 8 1/2 pounds of crushed granite, which Jeavons says will last for 10 years, slowly releasing potash and trace minerals.

Calcium

Add 2 pounds of crushed eggshells.

Potassium

Both "Golden Gate Gardening" and Organic Gardening magazine recommend using greensand, a mined mineral, as a slow-release source of potassium. Peirce recommends 10 pounds.

Whether you choose to go vegetarian or not, our focus is on the soil. As Common Ground's Eva Henin said, "The emphasis is on building healthy soil that will produce nutritious, delicious food."

All these nutrients can be found at Peaceful Valley Farm Supply; Common Ground, at 2225 El Camino Real, Palo Alto, CA 94306, or call (650) 493-6072; and many other nurseries.

For further information, check out:

"How to Grow More Vegetables," fifth edition, by John Jeavons, Ten Speed Press, 1995.
 
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Udyana Peace

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Bubblemang

In the late 80's my wife & I had the opportunity to take a week class at John Jeavon's farm. It was something to remember.

If you like Jeavon's work then you might want to check out Alan Chadwick who modified/modernized the French Intensive Technique (1700's). I believe that Jeavons studied directly under Chadwick but I may be wrong on that point.

Their planting method (which morphed into the term 'Bio-Intensive Planting' i.e. high density to preclude weeds, increased yields, etc.) was the work that the kids in Amsterdam used to come up with the term 'Sea of Green' in the 80's.

Quite an inventive bunch wouldn't you say?

UP
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Mad cow can be transferred through meals? I not only want to see the veracity for such a claim, I need to see it.

We're leaving around 11am today to head up to Auburn, specifically to visit Peaceful Valley Farm Supply (and my list is hardly complete, I'm hoping that by walking around there my memory will be jogged).

Anyway, that's a hell of a claim to say that mad cow can be passed on through meals. Not to mention that many of these meals are actually porcine in origin, not just bovine... makes me wonder.

***Edit*** Eeeyeahh... absolutely nothing that's citable other than the fact that these meals are no longer fed to feed animals. Jesus Horatio Christ, dissemination of bad information should come with a flogging sometimes, I swear. Give me a paper! Just one paper that shows that either Creutzfeld-Jakob OR bovine spongiform encephalopathy is transmittable to HUMANS through using blood or bone meals for growing PLANTS.

Seriously, wanna know where I keep running into this claim? Matt Rize. On what do you base your assertions?
 
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Bubblemang

Guest
Their planting method (which morphed into the term 'Bio-Intensive Planting' i.e. high density to preclude weeds, increased yields, etc.) was the work that the kids in Amsterdam used to come up with the term 'Sea of Green' in the 80's.

Quite an inventive bunch wouldn't you say?

UP

Your insight and knowledge are limitless sir. I incorporated your soil recipe into the classes I'm teaching this weekend. Thanks in advance :)

Maybe one of these days you are going to show up at one of my classes and call me out for being your intellectual inferior and former student... :evilgrin0040:
 
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Bubblemang

Guest
Seriously, wanna know where I keep running into this claim? Matt Rize. On what do you base your assertions?

If you didn't notice, which I find it hard to believe, is that the article I posted was not written by me. So I'm not going to defend the particulars. This was written back in the days of BSE-mania. There is a ton of really good info in this article. Take what you will from it. Flame on... I've already been thanked several times for posting that article.

"your assertion" lol, read better. I posted a well written article that brings some really good info to this thread. I'm not surprised tho, it's called selective reading. Skim the 99% good info to pick out the 1% bad... good job!
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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I saw that, but the fact is that you (repeatedly, didn't know til I searched) posted an article that appears to be based on partial and misunderstood information. Look up the veracity of the claims made in it for yourself, don't just take my word for it. However, I came across more than one instance of this exact information coming through you, much more easily found (first hits) through you than the original author. Either way, are my questions any less valid? I don't think so, but I am always willing to do a little footwork before I say anything, just to be sure, because that claim really caught my eye and I had to know.

Then I started looking for published papers, the kind with scientific veracity, the kind that talk about how the research and/or experiments were performed, the basic hypothesis that was used to develop the research/experiment, what other research/experiments that may be related are being relied upon, etc, etc. These are the kinds of papers that other scientists and researchers cite when developing their own hypotheses. Because, if it's true, if I could give myself, my family or friends something as bad as spongiform encephalopathy, I wanna know, for sure, ya know? So I started using the best tool I have at my disposal before I started making calls for people to give me their online uni library passwords--Google Scholar.

And so where I found myself was with these meals being discussed in conjunction with these disease occurrences when these meals are used as feeds. I found one paper talking about the bone and blood meals used as animal feed not being acceptable because feeding bovine parts to bovines, etcetera (because the spongiform encephalopathy doesn't always seem to cross species) increased rates of the disease, so this practice was stopped. But, I expected to find these papers, this stuff is well-known.

More significantly, I could not find a single paper that discussed either disease, mad cow or Creutzfeldt-Jakob, being passed to humans through the use of animal meals to feed plants. Not one. If you've got one that's like that, that has veracity, that's published science, please, lay it on me because I truly want to know.

PS: That wasn't a flaming, that was calling it like I see it. I didn't call anyone names, I didn't begin to make any other claims about you or the person you've based the previous post upon, nor did I denigrate anyone except to say the truth--bad information is being passed around. Does truth = flaming for you?
 
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Bubblemang

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I'll just say that I've gotten +rep for posting that article by senior members of the farm. . I don't grow vegan because of concerns over mad cow. But it sure is nice not having animal poo under my nails all the time now that I've gone vegan organic. Blaming me for showing up first on google searches seems a little silly.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
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A little poo never scared me. But then, I'll pick up rattlesnakes.

:makeup

Everyone should endeavor to ensure the information they're disseminating has a solid foundation in fact. If anything I say is found not to be factual or incorrect, I expect to be corrected.
 
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Bubblemang

Guest
Veganics = less yield with better quality according to someone else. PM me if you want the link to his grow journal.
veeeganics
Hey man, biocanna (or veganics?) generally yields less, correct? I've noticed a pretty big drop in yield (about 30%) from my previous organic poop methods, but the quality is about that much better, maybe even 40%+.... It's shocking man, this bud is so good. I almost don't want to write anymore smoke reports because I big it up too much, and I'm generally modest. I have to give you a big thanks man... you've seriously helped me improve the quality of my buds.

When I first tried veganics on an auto the quality was great, considering the absolute shit genetics. These current harvests have been such treats man, I've never had this tasty of bud in my life, and I've been around... so again, I have to thank you personally, and on the behalf of some patients that are seriously tripping on how good their meds are now. These are some of the things I live for man, working hard to help out people who deserve/need it and improving their quality of life, and now they can't stop praising these methods. It's a great feeling to know these people are comfortable with the source of their meds, and they don't have to worry it's some nasty corrosive hydro...
(and by patients I don't mean my pothead friends...)

So yeah, you're the man, keep speadin' the knowledge homie, it's helping improve people's lives.

Peace,
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Capt.Cropper

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Is that the BBK cut flying around lately? Wow,sounds potent,I had that plant in my closet for a minute. I forgot why I ditched it,but it was good smoke.
 
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stillcantroll

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I don't understand the concept, really. Veganism is one thing, but should we pretend here that animals don't die and decompose? It just seems like a seriously flawed concept. I can understand someone not wanting to see animals kept and used to produce these organic amendments, but lets get real... I'll have to do some more research one the sourcing of these products, but to me it just seems like a bunch of phooey nonsense.
 
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Shredder

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I don't understand the concept, really. Veganism is one thing, but should we pretend here that animals don't die and decompose? It just seems like a seriously flawed concept. I can understand someone not wanting to see animals kept and used to produce these organic amendments, but lets get real... I'll have to do some more research one the sourcing of these products, but to me it just seems like a bunch of phooey nonsense.

It's like bottled water. There was never any real need to buy water, most public places had drinking fountains. But after it was promoted, and folks were seen buying it, now it is a multi million dollar industry. The real story is the the money trail and the hype/promotion, really nothing new or something we have to have. But fortunes have been made on thin air, so it's up to the consumer, or in this case buyer beware. Nothing wrong with it, (other than $) nothing different, but if you want to box yourself in with self imposed rules, go for it. I just see it as silly.....shredder
 
dextr0

dextr0

1,664
163
It's like bottled water. There was never any real need to buy water, most public places had drinking fountains. But after it was promoted, and folks were seen buying it, now it is a multi million dollar industry. The real story is the the money trail and the hype/promotion, really nothing new or something we have to have. But fortunes have been made on thin air, so it's up to the consumer, or in this case buyer beware. Nothing wrong with it, (other than $) nothing different, but if you want to box yourself in with self imposed rules, go for it. I just see it as silly.....shredder

Maybe you should make another thread about all that, or pm each other. Im saying you shredder seem to feel xtra strongly about it. I would if I felt that strong. Your doing nothing but cluttering up what could be a good thread with bullshit. Hating can only get you so far, so do u a favor and stop. What are you going to gain by trying to tell us that u think its silly. Do you actually think that people HAVE to explain their beliefs to you in a good way. Get off the gas homeboy. No one should have to explain shit, unless they want to. Grow up, learn how to overlook the frivolous, and get serious when its needed. These are the signs of a man.

A little RESPECT and some good questions will get you further than HATING ever will. You wanna understand the WHY of something or someone then ask, respectfully.

I see nothing silly with someones beliefs, and if you dont agree with them thats your thing. Unless someone is trying to impose something on you or a loved one you have no right to Judge. Get your nose out of peoples business. Thats whats wrong with people, yall dont know how to keep your ears, eyes, and mouth shut at the appropriate times.

Dont let your ignorance infringe on someone elses beliefs, because one day you are going to run into someone that dont give a fuck...or maybe just dont feel like explaining himself. What you gonna do then?? I hope your tough and you can defend yourself if need be, but Im saying why even take it there. Respect things mane, you will only get the same back. Not always, but remember the way people perceive you is your own fault.
So you know like I said does this person/or idea even matter in any situation enough for you to demand respect or recognition? If so address it, but if not let it go. Who the fuck has time to deal with frivolous shit all the time?? I would hope that YOU dont, but your actions have showed differently. Time really is precious so dont let it pass you buy talking about frivolous stuff that mean nothing to you....or if it is important get your point across knowledgeably. Or even ask the right questions, something to let me know to take you seriously.

...just some suggestions. Alot of people probably need this little speech, including myself sometimes.

Peace,
dextr0
 
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Shredder

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Frivolous shit? You mean this whole thread? If veganics is something special, or new, or anything we just have to try, prove it! If it is based in reality using accepted science I'll listen. If i think it's silly i'll damn sure say it, thank you. This subject is like only watering on even days, just silly. Why or how does placing limits on your choices beneficial. Call that hate if you want, silly boy......shredder
 
dextr0

dextr0

1,664
163
A mexican will elbow the teeth out your mouth boy...I aint your boy. BOY.
 

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