JACKS BACK!!! Capulators new formulas.

[azmmjadvocates]

Most plants (especially those that fruit/bud with a good amount of water weight added) prefer to be at a VPD of about 8-10.

At 65RH and 79 degrees, you are at a VPD of ~12 which is certainly reasonable for the most part--however for an equatorial strain from a place as rainforest-y as Colombia, I'd expect you need to push this into the 8-10 range, and perhaps even beyond it early in veg.

For that particular strain (if it is indeed bred out from a Colombian parent and sensitive to that heritage genetically) an RH between 72-75 is where I'd shoot for at that temp. Maybe even moving up towards 80 in early veg.

Do you see any tacoing/twisting/heat stress along with the spotting? If so then its almost guaranteed to be a humidity issue based on my experience.

At what point is it that those genetics are hardened to new environmental conditions through seed propogation? An example would be the reduction of stomata in high CO2 climates http://phys.org/news/2011-04-araucarias-gauge-ancient-carbon-dioxide.html

What led me here to THC farmer in the first place was following anything fatman wrote, that led me to the Mine forum and reading about Jacks hydro from 2010 post by Yosimitiesam. Take Fatman for instance, was he only working with one strain? I don't look primarily at environment as it relates to genetics, only what happens when all things are not taken into account when manipulating environment. I have a mullen in my back yard here in AZ from up in the mountains taken from 5000 feet, now here at 115 degrees and it's thriving because I hardened it, seeds will be adaptive as well.


What I'm trying to say is I agree with you that his humidity is high for his temps, but I dont focus on the VDP by genetics. I look at manipulating turgor pressure to my advantage by forcing the stomata to stay open, massive H20 uptake and nutes along with it, however that requires adjusting nute concentrations, I don't focus so much on VPN because I keep my RH low and Temps higher. If I didn't do that I'd experience problems. A plant takes some of it's environmental conditions and imprints that to seed, Some factors depend on the breeders IMHO. With that said Kush's by large tend to taco from what growers report, but that is because they are not hardened, growers are on the the next best plant and don't make it adapt to a new environment. There is some downside to all of this IMO however and that is what happens to the genetics pool.

 

[squiggly]

At what point is it that those genetics are hardened to new environmental conditions through seed propogation? An example would be the reduction of stomata in high CO2 climates http://phys.org/news/2011-04-araucarias-gauge-ancient-carbon-dioxide.html

What led me here to THC farmer in the first place was following anything fatman wrote, that led me to the Mine forum and reading about Jacks hydro from 2010 post by Yosimitiesam. Take Fatman for instance, was he only working with one strain? I don't look primarily at environment as it relates to genetics, only what happens when all things are not taken into account when manipulating environment. I have a mullen in my back yard here in AZ from up in the mountains taken from 5000 feet, now here at 115 degrees and it's thriving because I hardened it, seeds will be adaptive as well.


What I'm trying to say is I agree with you that his humidity is high for his temps, but I dont focus on the VDP by genetics. I look at manipulating turgor pressure to my advantage by forcing the stomata to stay open, massive H20 uptake and nutes along with it, however that requires adjusting nute concentrations, I don't focus so much on VPN because I keep my RH low and Temps higher. If I didn't do that I'd experience problems. A plant takes some of it's environmental conditions and imprints that to seed, Some factors depend on the breeders IMHO.

Opening of stomata can be correlated to VPD in a 1:1 ratio. VPD directly effects the saturation of guard cells with water--which causes stomata to open.

Also the genetic situation you propose above wherein you take a cut from the mountains and get it used to a new environment--this will not have a direct genetic effect. The seeds have a chance to be adaptive (as the parent clearly is)--but the moving of the plant itself has no direct effect on this. It simply follows that the offspring are likely to have some of the traits of the parent (which may include traits which allow vigorous growth at the lower altitude).

Where you keep your plants shouldn't affect the offspring at all--unless there are some meiotic drive elements at work which are environment dependent, but I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[Capulator]

Most plants (especially those that fruit/bud with a good amount of water weight added) prefer to be at a VPD of about 8-10.

At 65RH and 79 degrees, you are at a VPD of ~12 which is certainly reasonable for the most part--however for an equatorial strain from a place as rainforest-y as Colombia, I'd expect you need to push this into the 8-10 range, and perhaps even beyond it early in veg.

For that particular strain (if it is indeed bred out from a Colombian parent and sensitive to that heritage genetically) an RH between 72-75 is where I'd shoot for at that temp. Maybe even moving up towards 80 in early veg.

Do you see any tacoing/twisting/heat stress along with the spotting? If so then its almost guaranteed to be a humidity issue based on my experience.

lol, you will probably want to kill me, your math works out correct if it's 27% N, but I come up with .00662 g/gal. I follow your math but are you sure it's 27%? Looking at 25# or 100# the numbers are the same, multiply x 4 and they translate. The example they give of 20-10-20 adding 10.6oz pr 100# is the same as the column below 2.65oz pr 25#.

Looking at the example being a 20-10-20 mix seems pretty straight forward but we use 5-12-26 plus the 15.5 from the Ca(No3)2 so that should equal 20.5% N ? If the way you are figuring this is correct, that would imply we need different concentrations for Veg and Flower?

yeah i fucked up and put the 12 in the N column of the jacks hydro instead of the P. oops. its 20.5% then... so it would be 2.65 oz per 25 lbs,which is no that much. The only way you woudl use less is if you used less hydro or less cano3, since you are using a specific amount/ gram of either one. All I know is I only throw a pinch in now and the plants all look very healthy.

as far as how much to feed... I find it's best to run one strain for a while, record what you are doing every time, record the conditions, record what the plant is doing, etc... This way if you ever get a bumper crop, you can emulate.

 

[azmmjadvocates]

Opening of stomata can be correlated to VPD in a 1:1 ratio. VPD directly effects the saturation of guard cells with water--which causes stomata to open.

Also the genetic situation you propose above wherein you take a cut from the mountains and get it used to a new environment--this will not have a direct genetic effect. The seeds have a chance to be adaptive (as the parent clearly is)--but the moving of the plant itself has no direct effect on this. It simply follows that the offspring are likely to have some of the traits of the parent (which may include traits which allow vigorous growth at the lower altitude).

Where you keep your plants shouldn't affect the offspring at all--unless there are some meiotic drive elements at work which are environment dependent, but I've never heard of such a thing.

Now you have lol.. IMHO this plant is HIGHLY adaptive, look at all the nute concentrations all the meddling we have done going back thousands of years.

You are absolutely correct about the VDP 1:1 ration I just don't have to run a calculation because I keep my temps high enough and RH low enough for me not to have to give it a consideration.

 

[Capulator]

http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0804.html

looks like I should be down around 55%? makes sense since I have condensation on my buckets... the air can't hold any more water. Gonna go turn on a deheuy and kill my humidifier right now.

 

[squiggly]

Now you have lol.. IMHO this plant is HIGHLY adaptive, look at all the nute concentrations all the meddling we have done going back thousands of years.

You are absolutely correct about the VDP 1:1 ration I just don't have to run a calculation because I keep my temps high enough and RH low enough for me not to have to give it a consideration.

You're saying backwards of what is actually needed. To maintain VPD at proper levels, as temperature increases so must RH.

For example:

 

[aRiv]

couldn't tell you exactly how much MORE i need to use but depending on my mix say i use 25ml down with city tap.. on the well it takes about double that and that is to move it a few points compared to the city which has a longer ways to get to 5.8 my tanks are 100 and 150gal.. im starting to learn ph down is adding to my nutrient profile? any products i can effectively use for up and down that will not add to the food and be stable?

 

[Capulator]

You're saying backwards of what is actually needed. To maintain VPD at proper levels, as temperature increases so must RH.

For example:

can you check the link I posted above. post #165. I am reading 55% would be better. PLus I have condensation on my buckets which makes me think that the air can't take in as much moisture, or is something else causing the buckets and pipes to sweat (water is 62 degrees)?

 

[Capulator]

couldn't tell you exactly how much MORE i need to use but depending on my mix say i use 25ml down with city tap.. on the well it takes about double that and that is to move it a few points compared to the city which has a longer ways to get to 5.8 my tanks are 100 and 150gal.. im starting to learn ph down is adding to my nutrient profile? any products i can effectively use for up and down that will not add to the food and be stable?

sulfuric acid. it will raise sulfur but will not affect NPK.

 

[azmmjadvocates]

You're saying backwards of what is actually needed. To maintain VPD at proper levels, as temperature increases so must RH.

For example:

What i'm trying to get at is you can use it as a tool, to manipulate the stomata, I do not disagree with the chart, it states when to apply humidification or de humidify. I do keep it backwards so that my plants transpire, it doesn't matter how much my air can hold because as soon as they transpire my de humidifyer robs it from the air, I pour off 2 gallons a day which is about equal to the loss in H20 of my REZ. So they are transpiring which is exactly what I want to manipulate them to do. It 's a tool, like picking a few leaves to slow strecth , or forcing a nute deficiency then pulling them out quickly... To be a good pilot you need to do some tail spins on purpose. Not all bad things are bad if controlled. I'm just saying those measurements make no difference, TO ME, others it will absolutely make a difference and should not go out and do what I am doing without also making other adjustments or they will crash and burn. If I didn't have de humidification it would. If I didn't make changes due to significant uptake it would make a difference, the point is it's all relative.

As far as genetics the article pdf im trying to attach is from Europeans in China 3000 years ago using this hight THC plant for medicine, where did it originate? It was apparently transported from somewhere with trible people, was it a more arid environment? I keep an open mind about everything so am not ever going to be so steadfast as I cannot change my mind about something.

 

[squiggly]

The idea is to balance between transpiration and respiration depending on the current needs of the plant. My only suggestion is that in this particular situation--I've found that it tends to be respiratory issue rather than transpiratory one.

As for the condensation, you are forgetting something very critical in your analysis--the temperature differential between your air temp and the water temp.

We expect condensation to be driven forward the larger the temperature differential is, even at lower humidity (say 30%). If ANYTHING this as the effect of lowering the available water vapor in your air mixture rather than suggesting that it is already saturated.

I assure you that it is not :) This is just an example of how condensation works.

Now, if you have a bucket of water at 79deg and IT is sweating--then you could make the assumption that you have.

My suggestion is that, you won't know unless you try.

 

[azmmjadvocates]

I don't like saying things that aren't referenced so I'm going to post some "fair use" comments from fatman running them together from a thread on seedmine june 20th 2010 starting with post 310 and hopefully it will help. Coincidentally on that same thread was the first mention "ive seen" of jacks 5-12-26 for MMJ, I'd like to narrow down who used it first to give credit in upcoming publishing, so if anyone knows and can prove it please let me know for my research. What you will find even though Fatman gets banned for abrasiveness is his writings reach far into MMJ cultivation.


Fatman wrote:

Giant said: ↑

Damn, I dont know what is going on, but almost immediately after switching to the 2-1-3 ratio I started having broken branches. It must be a coincidence, but I dont know what caused it. It seems like either the buds just got 20x heavier or the branches just gave up on supporting them. They are all sagging and 3-4 have snapped clean off at the main stalk.. :(

Fatman: A higher ratio of potash typically leads to an immediatte increase in water take up. IE It is responsible for water status of stomato aperatures. It plays a major role in controlling plant transpiration and turgor. Simply put your plants put on some immediate water weight. String time!!!! Lower the humidity if you can do so without the heavy use of fans. IE a dehumidifier. If using fans a multiple of small muffins fans will lower the humidity enough so that the palnts will transpire more and therore not carry so much excess water.

Indoor mj grows are not the same as commercial green house grows where transpiration and humidity is controlled by over head misting and massive air movements. Rules that apply to commercilal green houses in the growing of products like tomatos and other highwater content plants do not transfer across to an indoor grow. Unless that grow is sadly managed at inefficient levels due to poor methodologies. mj is a high dollar crop and the growing areas are contained well enough (and most often space efficient enough) that climate controll can be better managed by dehumidifiers, CO2 supplemention and air conditioning.

It is simply a matter of upscaling your system to take advantage of all the light you provide or down garde your lighting to the lower standards of climate parameters you are willing to provide. Consider dehumification as being the replacement for natural winds/ventilation. The dehumifier and air conditioners remove humidity just like a com ntinous gentle wind. They lower the humidity anfd the plants transpire more to replace the water at the stomata lost due to the dehumification. This increases nutrient uptake. If the humidity is too high transpiration stops. DVR charts pertaining to a greenhouse grow of tomatos have no relation to an indoor mj grow. Increasing RH as showmn in the charts will cause the problem you are experiencing right now. With tomatos though it will just plump up the tomatos with lots of water.

fatman, Jun 20, 2010 Report
#310 Like Reply



skwirlgirl said: ↑

I have so many questions...I will say I'm all about lower RH and have been since I moved to THE HIGH DESERT haha. The average RH here is 22% at 7000 ft...I augment that a bit during veg (up to 50% for awhile.. but in bloom I like to drop it into the 30'
s and late I'll kill the fogger completely so it's in the 20's..Seems to tighten things up.. All done with my ultrasonic fogger. Can you give us some ideas why YOU like to run lower RH?


Fatman: There are no benefits to a high RH with a well managed and designed system. However, there are many adverse side effects to a high RH. A hig RH is only needed to protect your plants for a shortage of water and DO when your system it is unable to supply adequate amounts of water containing adequate DO to the roots. Many systems can not supply adequate water containingadequate DO for high temps. With such systems then higher RT are necessary at high temps. However high RH at high temps slows to a crawl all growth. A high RT slows or nearly stops all evapotranspiration RH amongst the plants is often 50% to 100% higher than the RT at the plants canopy (IE open areas in the grow space). Air can only hold so much water. When the air is loaded with moisture amongst the plants the stomata are not able to relaeses water, so no transpiration takes place. Yes, one can toy around with fans and ventilation and even pretend they are maintaining proper levels of RT with humidistats, misters and/or humidifiers.

The most efficient manner of getting the most transpiration is to lower the humidity down to a level just above the level whare the stomata close to conserve water. This means the plants will transpire very heavily and the growers then just removes the transpired water. This heanvy transpiration means: heavy nutrient flow, heavy uptake of DO, heavy use of CO2. All this given adequate lighting PAR means maximum growth.

In a Nutshell

Significance of Transpiration

Absorption of water
Transpiration influences the rate of absorption of water from the soil.
Water movement
By transpiration, water moves upwards and as it passes into the cell vacuoles, it makes the cells turgid. This gives form and shape to cells and plant as a whole.
Mineral salt transport
The water stream moving upwards carries dissolved minerals with it. Transpiration also helps in distributing these minerals throughout the plant.
Cooling
The evaporation of water during transpiration cools the leaves.
Protection from heat injury
Some plants like cacti, retain water by reducing transpiration. This saves the plants from high temperatures and strong sunlight.

Factors Affecting Rate of Transpiration - External factors
Temperature
Higher the temperature more is the transpiration.
Light
Light causes stomata to open and hence increase the water loss from plant.

Deficiency
Availability of soil water
When the soil gets dry, soil solution becomes more concentrated and the rate of absorption by cells decreases. This leads to reduction in transpiration and stomata close quickly to keep the water loss to minimum.
Atmospheric humidity
High humidity means high water vapour pressure outside and it results in lower rate of transpiration and as the humidity decreases rate of transpiration increases.
Wind
The wind removes water vapour and thus increases the rate of transpiration. High winds lead to stomatal closure to stop the rapid water loss and hence bring a drop in rate of transpiration. Moderate winds may also reduce transpiration by lowering the temperature of leaf.

fatman, Jun 21, 2010 Report
#312 Like Reply



skwirlgirl said: ↑

well put.

So F'Man where do you like your RH to be most of the time?...and what about the theory/practice of lowering RH late in flowering for tighter flowers?


Fatman: I run all water cooled fine droplet misted aero systems with air conditioning, dehumificication and 1500 ppm CO2 in sealed rooms. I run Honey Well Dehumidistats with a 4 to 6 degree differential. They stay set at 40%. They power window air conditioners used as dehumidifiers as they exhaust air back into the rooms not outside. I also use DIY split AC units. They seldom run and are set at 90 degrees with a 4 to 6 degree diff. The night time thermostats are set at 86 degrees. By chiller cools the light water down to 55 Degrees. I use all 250 watt lights 2 to 4 inches above the canopy. I do not chill the nutrient water (it runs about 86 to 92 degrees) as it is drain to waste. Yes it runs at a low nutrient ppm. I maintain a residual of 0.5 ppm of chlorine at all times in the nutrient water. Tap water is usaully 2 to 4 ppm of chlorine. I have found no benefit to lowering RH below 35% that is worth the risk of stopping transpiration. My buds are green leafed at harvest. I find buds that show obvious visual signs of nutrient deficiency due to long term flushing obscene.



Giant said: ↑

I am running a dehumidifier, but my RH still stays between 40 and 60% in the tent. I couldnt get it below 35% if I tried. :lol: Temps are peaking between 85 and 95*f during the days, and Im trying to work on that.. I really dont see any way to resolve that before this grow is over, so I think I am stuck dealing with it. I got as many branches as I could save tied up, and they are certainly swelling. :D

Fatman: Looks like you have hit a RH that is working well for your set up. High enough that the stomata do not close to conserve water, yet low enough to keep the plants transpiring heavily so as to still supply enough water, nutes, and DO to grow in the heat. The issue now is what is your EC. With heavy transporation you have heavy nute up take. If you have heavy water/nute uptake and strong lighting, high temps but low CO2 a high EC will cause tip burn as you have enough too much of everything except CO2. This means increased CO2 (more ventilation or CO2 supplementation) for maximum growth, or cut the EC to utilize as much of everything posible your CO2 level allows. This will cause some bud extension (thinner, longer buds) but it will still be a greater yield in a shorter growth period then would happen under low temps or higher RH. I would if the CO2 becomes an issue just increase ventilation with outside air. Supplemental CO2 is great but spendy to initially set up.

fatman, Jun 22, 2010 Report
#325 Like Reply

 

[aRiv]

sulfuric acid. it will raise sulfur but will not affect NPK.

thanks Cap. from what i've read sulfur is a good thing...


question for you. The root packs and foliar. If you only had a warm rez how would you suggest using them? running straight canna coco DTW currently on maxi due to hi temps and canna going funky. ordered up some jacks and i'll be making the switch shortly.

in flower im feeding multiple times a day running 1gal pots with good run-off. my veg period is usually 7-10day's.

another thing. i clone in straight coco.. will mixing in some of the roots pack be beneficial?

 

[Capulator]

thanks Cap. from what i've read sulfur is a good thing...


question for you. The root packs and foliar. If you only had a warm rez how would you suggest using them? running straight canna coco DTW currently on maxi due to hi temps and canna going funky. ordered up some jacks and i'll be making the switch shortly.

in flower im feeding multiple times a day running 1gal pots with good run-off. my veg period is usually 7-10day's.

another thing. i clone in straight coco.. will mixing in some of the roots pack be beneficial?

mix in the root pack for sure. very beneficial. warm res is good.

 

[tconch]

I am running this at around 80% and plants are really loving it. Ill take some pics later to post up here.

CAP what alien plant is that in pic? also with jacks what g/watt have you had ?

 

[Capulator]

CAP what alien plant is that in pic? also with jacks what g/watt have you had ?

I am not at liberty to divulge that info. my best run on jacks was 5 elbows under 3 600w with pK, but I coudl do better if I ran something like the guava13 or tangerine dream (bigger yielders).

 

[tconch]

I am not at liberty to divulge that info. my best run on jacks was 5 elbows under 3 600w with pK, but I coudl do better if I ran something like the guava13 or tangerine dream (bigger yielders).

have you run that same strain with different nutes,looking for comparison between jacks and other nutes like h&g that alien strain is it a test or are they available now i have a coulpe of his just wondering

 

[Snowblind]

Ill post some pictures soon in this thread of some mind blowing results from JACKS!

JACKS is so cheap that ive fallen in love with drain to waste. The plants seem to respond to drain to waste like never before. I will never recirculate again.

Im using Growstones which are an amazing product that I am very happy with.

If you mix up your own sulphuric acid please been carefull. Order it on ebay and dilute it at home.

Use long sleeves, gloves, a hat, eye protection. Do it in a well ventilated area, outside is best for most people in case something bad happens. Mix the acid into the water slowly! It will create a great deal of heat. Never mix the water into the acid. Never. Never. Never. Never.Use caution, but dont be afraid. One gallon of Sulphuric Acid ph down after its diluted will last a long time. The added Sulphur is good for your plants too.

I cant wait to show you a few pictures. All the pictures I take for the most part are always grown with JACKS.

Thanks for the thread Cap as always. Im learning a lot!

 

[aRiv]

snowblind, any specific ratio it should be mixed too or doesn't matter? i currently run the AN ph down cause if not i would run through gallons of the other shit.. what kinda mix do work with ? anything else besides the jacks and calnit?

cap, what ratio would you mix the root pack into the coco that will be used for making clones?

the foliar pack.. would it not last mixed into a warm rez for 4-6 days? would like to use it for the fungus gnats that like to come about.. currently keep skeeter dunks in the rez but they make a mess after a while..

thanks

 

[Snowblind]

Check ebay for this listing. Its like 12.95 plus shipping.

Concentrated Sulfuric Acid Biodiesel 950 ml H2SO4 Liter Sulphuric 98% Vitrol Oil

I had an old ph down gallon bottle from gh and rinsed it out.

Get a gallon of ro water. Empty out 950ml just to be safe and discard.

I then put the remaining water into the cleaned out gh bottle. Slowly add the sulphuric acid to the ro water. If you add it toofast it will get really hot. Just add a little at a time. Wear chem gloves and sleeves.

There is probably a good plastic for storing sulphuric acid that can be ordered online. Some kind of special containers. Im not sure if the normal plastic that a ro gallon of water comes in is good for storing the shit. Perhaps someone else smarter than I am can chime in.

The mixture is really strong and takes a while to get used to. I made many mistakes at first and phed down things way to much.

I love my home made sulphuric acid ph down. The shit will freak you out at first though! Use caution until you know what the fuck you are doing.