120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 9, 2013

Hey thanks guys. I forgot citric acid was a pH down lol. And I'm for sure going to check out caps bennies, just been a little sick lately so haven't got a chance yet. Ttystikk, thanks for the fogger advice. That's a headache I don't need to start w. I might push that idea back until I really get going again. As for the website...I ended up finding it thru Google. It wasn't haifas main site but they do have Haifa products on there :)

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 9, 2013

And I'll post my formulas and shit in the next few days or weeks so as to actually contribute the proper information this thread is asking for lol.

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 9, 2013

Okay well, being only slightly bronchial today, I was able to hash out those figures I was talking about. Here goes:

All measurments in g/L
Early Veg:

MKP - .44
Cal. Nit.- .52
Mg. Sulf. - .51
K. Sil. - .1
Ammonium Sulfate - .06
This gives us: 100-125-125-100-50-66.3 for N-P-K-C-M-S ppms

Veg

MKP - .18
Cal. Nit. - .79
Mg. Sulf. - .77
K Sil. - .19
K Nit. - .29
A Sulf. - .42
Giving us: 300-50-200-150-75-100

Late Veg

MKP - .21
Cal. Nit. - 1.05
Mg. Sulf. - 1.02
K Sil. - .19
K Nit. - .4
A Sulf. - .33
325-60-200-200-100-132

Early Flower

MKP - .25
Cal. Nit. - 1.18
Mg. Sulf. - 1.23
K Sil. - .29
K Nit. - .38
A Sulf. - .05
250-70-275-225-120-160

Late Flower

MKP - .28
Cal. Nit. - .92
Mg. Sulf. - 1.02
K Sil. - .29
K Nit. - .21
A Sulf. - .09
K Sulf. - .23
200-80-325-175-100-175

As I stated above, I'll be using a plethora of additives, hormones, bennies, etc. to supplement these Macros and Secondary lists. I'll also be using EDTA Cal. and Mag. to supplement those figures as MgSO4 isn't 100% Magnesium, nor is Cal. Nit. 100% Calcium in its listed figure.

Any input would be greatly appreciated on these figures.

Edit: For the Ammonium Sulfate, I calculated only N and at the wrong figures...so I'll have to go back and re-hash that out.

LexLuthor · Jan 9, 2013

@Jfizzle - They seem like some good ratios. Do you think the one for early veg would burn your young plants??

Capulator · Jan 9, 2013

jfizzle2cmu said:
Okay well, being only slightly bronchial today, I was able to hash out those figures I was talking about. Here goes:

All measurments in g/L
Early Veg:

MKP - .44

Cal. Nit.- .52

Mg. Sulf. - .51

K. Sil. - .1

Ammonium Sulfate - .06

This gives us: 100-125-125-100-50-66.3 for N-P-K-C-M-S ppms

Veg

MKP - .18

Cal. Nit. - .79

Mg. Sulf. - .77

K Sil. - .19

K Nit. - .29

A Sulf. - .42

Giving us: 300-50-200-150-75-100

Late Veg

MKP - .21

Cal. Nit. - 1.05

Mg. Sulf. - 1.02

K Sil. - .19

K Nit. - .4

A Sulf. - .33

325-60-200-200-100-132

Early Flower

MKP - .25

Cal. Nit. - 1.18

Mg. Sulf. - 1.23

K Sil. - .29

K Nit. - .38

A Sulf. - .05

250-70-275-225-120-160

Late Flower

MKP - .28

Cal. Nit. - .92

Mg. Sulf. - 1.02

K Sil. - .29

K Nit. - .21

A Sulf. - .09

K Sulf. - .23

200-80-325-175-100-175

As I stated above, I'll be using a plethora of additives, hormones, bennies, etc. to supplement these Macros and Secondary lists. I'll also be using EDTA Cal. and Mag. to supplement those figures as MgSO4 isn't 100% Magnesium, nor is Cal. Nit. 100% Calcium in its listed figure.

Any input would be greatly appreciated on these figures.

Edit: For the Ammonium Sulfate, I calculated only N and at the wrong figures...so I'll have to go back and re-hash that out.

why so much N?

Man I haven't broken 160ppms of N... Seems like you are really high in N and Ca in late veg/early flower.

kushtrees · Jan 9, 2013

I'm assuming those are going to be diluted by like 1/2. From my expirience numbers that high are going to put ur EC in the high 2s or 3s.

A lot if what I have read shows very few if any benefit from vitamins. For example a healthy plant will produce plenty of B1 so adding extra will not be very useful, it will be a source for microbes, but after that the plant won't need it unless it isn't healthy. A lot of companies toss in extra bs like vitamins to make their products more applealing when they really do very little for the plant.

kushtrees · Jan 9, 2013

You have a large list of inputs jfizzle I'd love to see how things go for you. I've found I can cut out a lot of things over the years and have just as good and better results. No need to over complicate

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 9, 2013

why so much N?

Yeah I've already looked these over and realized a few things that are way off. I've thought over the whole N thing a lot. I wanted to carry decent levels of N through stretch and then dwindle off, I just wasn't thinking that was too high, but after re-reading and going through a bunch of threads. I'll probably look to build up to about 350 during veg, then bump down to 250 then down to about 200 through first 3 weeks flower. Then bump down to 150 and then 100 and 50 ppms the last two weeks b4 flush. Also probably shoot for like 300 ppms K in the first week of flower and build up to 400 the last week b4 flush. That's one thing I noticed I was way out of whack on the N:K ratio. Calcium I'm not gonna change much, probably lower a bit, but I like the idea of a lot of calcium. I've read somewhere calcium should be somewhat proportional to N during flower. Taper em both off quite a bit the last 2 weeks and I should be good.

Keep in mind I've only had about 2 years of growing experience and I've learned most everything through thousands of hours of research and sifting through what I believe to be the best, most scientifically proven data. So I'm sure as I pick back up and actually get this thing in full motion a lot will change. But I tried to keep most of the info from this thread in mind when I modeled this, with a few personal preferences.

I'm assuming those are going to be diluted by like 1/2. From my expirience numbers that high are going to put ur EC in the high 2s or 3s.

A lot if what I have read shows very few if any benefit from vitamins. For example a healthy plant will produce plenty of B1 so adding extra will not be very useful, it will be a source for microbes, but after that the plant won't need it unless it isn't healthy. A lot of companies toss in extra bs like vitamins to make their products more applealing when they really do very little for the plant.

You have a large list of inputs jfizzle I'd love to see how things go for you. I've found I can cut out a lot of things over the years and have just as good and better results. No need to over complicate

I like the idea of a lot of different things being given to the plant, as I have a firm belief it can only help in moderation. I'm not gonna go dump B vitamins down their throat expecting extra miracle pounds. I'm just looking to give em a VERY well balanced diet. Sort of like a human taking a daily multivitamin. I don't think anybody's died from taking a multivitamin, have they? As I'm sure nobody gained superpowers either. Can't hurt in moderation right?
As Pork mentioned in a comment on the first page...why restrict your plant to 13 elements when there are potentially 90, hell probably even more things that COULD help your plants? The research is nowhere near complete on this sort of thing. The only thing you can do is try and see what hurts, what helps, what does nothing.
I'll be sure to keep everyone updated. It'll probably be mid-Feb before I'm up and running though.

Capulator · Jan 10, 2013

jfizzle2cmu said:
Yeah I've already looked these over and realized a few things that are way off. I've thought over the whole N thing a lot. I wanted to carry decent levels of N through stretch and then dwindle off, I just wasn't thinking that was too high, but after re-reading and going through a bunch of threads. I'll probably look to build up to about 350 during veg, then bump down to 250 then down to about 200 through first 3 weeks flower. Then bump down to 150 and then 100 and 50 ppms the last two weeks b4 flush. Also probably shoot for like 300 ppms K in the first week of flower and build up to 400 the last week b4 flush. That's one thing I noticed I was way out of whack on the N:K ratio. Calcium I'm not gonna change much, probably lower a bit, but I like the idea of a lot of calcium. I've read somewhere calcium should be somewhat proportional to N during flower. Taper em both off quite a bit the last 2 weeks and I should be good.

Keep in mind I've only had about 2 years of growing experience and I've learned most everything through thousands of hours of research and sifting through what I believe to be the best, most scientifically proven data. So I'm sure as I pick back up and actually get this thing in full motion a lot will change. But I tried to keep most of the info from this thread in mind when I modeled this, with a few personal preferences.

I like the idea of a lot of different things being given to the plant, as I have a firm belief it can only help in moderation. I'm not gonna go dump B vitamins down their throat expecting extra miracle pounds. I'm just looking to give em a VERY well balanced diet. Sort of like a human taking a daily multivitamin. I don't think anybody's died from taking a multivitamin, have they? As I'm sure nobody gained superpowers either. Can't hurt in moderation right?
As Pork mentioned in a comment on the first page...why restrict your plant to 13 elements when there are potentially 90, hell probably even more things that COULD help your plants? The research is nowhere near complete on this sort of thing. The only thing you can do is try and see what hurts, what helps, what does nothing.
I'll be sure to keep everyone updated. It'll probably be mid-Feb before I'm up and running though.

IMHO if you go over 200 ppm N you will be using far too much. Its all about the elemental ppm ratios brother. If you go to 350 ppm N you need like 350 ppm Ca, 180ppm Mg, 100ppm P, and like 500 ppm K (something like that). Those figures are retardedly high, even for dankworth lol.

I suggest if you are in coco to stay around 1.3 - 2.2 EC and if you are in water culture, half of that. That means around 120-160ppm N, not 300-350 FWIW.

veg plants... 0.3-0.5 EC

More growing, Less research.

BTW vitamin B is a myth. B does nothing for plants.

ttystikk · Jan 10, 2013

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not." -Yogi Berra

LexLuthor · Jan 10, 2013

I think one of the best pieces of advice I got was from Dankworth, he said "buy salts for cheap, copy a proven formula, then talk shit". Ok, you don't have to talk shit, but if your just starting to mess with making ferts from raw salts (like me) you should definitely copy a proven formulation that worked for you in the past, or something that you've seen work for multiple people..

A typical 3-1-2, 3-1-4, 2-1-3, ect. will most likely work great, you just have to dial it in depending on your medium, grow system, ect., also boost PK weeks 2.4.6 of bloom then drop N, Ca and raise P,K,Mg last couple weeks bloom before flush. Or something like that.

kushtrees · Jan 10, 2013

If you invest less money in nutrients and inputs you can spend more on the important things like the environmental controls :) just trying to keep an eye out for your wallet.

If you look at a lot of commercial hydro grows they use part A part B and an acid for pH control. I have no doubt commercial growers could outgrow many people who use tons of additives. IMO it's better to start with less and add little by little so you can see what is makig a difference and worth your money.

My essentials... Base nutes (including micro nutrients), silica, fulvic acid, ACT
My useful extras... Humic acid, kelp, iba and naa, triaconal

That's just my personal preference gatta find what works for you though

midwestdensies · Jan 10, 2013

Great thread and concise last 2 posts lex and kushtrees. Thanks..
MW

LexLuthor · Jan 10, 2013

kushtrees said:
IMO it's better to start with less and add little by little so you can see what is makig a difference and worth your money.

I definitely agree with that!! Add 1 supplement/additive to a few plants and see the effects. Over time you will be able to dial in your formulations, if you start with everything at once then you will have no idea what is working and whats useless.

Donkdbz · Jan 11, 2013

jfizzle2cmu said:
Yeah I've already looked these over and realized a few things that are way off. I've thought over the whole N thing a lot. I wanted to carry decent levels of N through stretch and then dwindle off, I just wasn't thinking that was too high, but after re-reading and going through a bunch of threads. I'll probably look to build up to about 350 during veg, then bump down to 250 then down to about 200 through first 3 weeks flower. Then bump down to 150 and then 100 and 50 ppms the last two weeks b4 flush. Also probably shoot for like 300 ppms K in the first week of flower and build up to 400 the last week b4 flush. That's one thing I noticed I was way out of whack on the N:K ratio. Calcium I'm not gonna change much, probably lower a bit, but I like the idea of a lot of calcium. I've read somewhere calcium should be somewhat proportional to N during flower. Taper em both off quite a bit the last 2 weeks and I should be good.

Keep in mind I've only had about 2 years of growing experience and I've learned most everything through thousands of hours of research and sifting through what I believe to be the best, most scientifically proven data. So I'm sure as I pick back up and actually get this thing in full motion a lot will change. But I tried to keep most of the info from this thread in mind when I modeled this, with a few personal preferences.

I like the idea of a lot of different things being given to the plant, as I have a firm belief it can only help in moderation. I'm not gonna go dump B vitamins down their throat expecting extra miracle pounds. I'm just looking to give em a VERY well balanced diet. Sort of like a human taking a daily multivitamin. I don't think anybody's died from taking a multivitamin, have they? As I'm sure nobody gained superpowers either. Can't hurt in moderation right?
As Pork mentioned in a comment on the first page...why restrict your plant to 13 elements when there are potentially 90, hell probably even more things that COULD help your plants? The research is nowhere near complete on this sort of thing. The only thing you can do is try and see what hurts, what helps, what does nothing.
I'll be sure to keep everyone updated. It'll probably be mid-Feb before I'm up and running though.

Have you ever grown once using salts you mixxed yourself?

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 11, 2013

No I haven't grown using salts before. So yes I realize this is all arbitrary until I actually put it to use. I'm obviously going to start off weak and build up, tweaking the formulations along the way. Nothing anyone says though will convince me plants don't like a wide variety of vitamins, nutes, aminos, etc. And I'm finding it quite difficult to find any sort of solid info on dry nute formulations. cap is way diff then danks who is way diff than Fatman who is way diff than hogelands who is way diff than person x, etc. I copied what I thought to be the best of all worlds and modeled it in the likeness of an nutes. Almost all the nute formulations made by commercial manufacturers are at least as concentrated as mine, at least according to the nute calculator listings someone posted on the Fatman DIY page.

jfizzle2cmu · Jan 11, 2013

Hey cap. How many Applications do u get out of ur Bennie packages? I like them And will probably be ordering them all next month.

pork · Jan 11, 2013

getting into mixing your own salts is a process...it's fun but a whole new game...best advice has already been given a few posts up, copy a proven formula and tweak from there...don't do more than a 10-20% change to a variable (and only one at a time) when experimenting...otherwise it might be hard to isolate what exactly does what...

Sea Energy Agriculture by Dr Maynard Murray is a great book about complete mineralization. The scope deals with food crops, but this information seems equally as applicable with flowers. Still trying to determine the most cost effective way to fully mineralize my plants (Ocean Solution, Sea Salt, Sea-90, kelp) for my DTW drip system...

LexLuthor · Jan 11, 2013

jfizzle2cmu said:
Nothing anyone says though will convince me plants don't like a wide variety of vitamins, nutes, aminos, etc.

I don't wanna convince you of anything regarding vitamins and other additives and I don't wanna debate if they work or not. Just trying to give you advice on how you should use them. Instead of using everything at once, for example, start with a basic NPK Ca Mg S + micro formulation then add fulvic to a group of plants, add B1 to another, and so on.

I think you will be able to see which additives are helpful and which are useless, if any. By using everything at once you won't know which ones are more beneficial then others or how much of a particular additive would be better at lower/higher dosages. FWIW I think fulvic and humic acids are alot more important then vitamins, good luck bro.

EDIT: I meant to say supplemental vitamins, we all know plants produce there own.

Jalisco Kid · Jan 11, 2013

I like foggers you just need the right kind, like the ones in my aero units.Who edited what of mine? My shit is for the masses anyone who wants the info all they have too do is ask. Suerte JK
I will give you my clones, my tanks, my nutes and still outgrow.

120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

120-60-300-120-60-177.2 Nutrient Tutorial, or, My Thread Can Beat Up Your Thread.

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