24-48 Hours of dark before harvest ??

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kcaven

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I really apreciate the responces I've gotten on this thread .
So what I'm going to try is leaving them in the dark now for 72 hours and harvest on that morning . So I'll be taking them down Sunday morning .
And keeping them in the dark for drying and curing .
Have to find out more about curing .
This is all for personal use so I'm not worried about bag appeal and my grow are small because there is no space for more the two or three plants until I can afford to construct a room in the basement .

Thank you everybody for taking the time to help me out with your knowledge .
May all your harvests be bountiful .
Need my address to send samples to?
 
Papa Indica

Papa Indica

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I have tried with and without the 48 hours dark and can honestly say that the only difference that I have found is that you will have noticeably more red hair on your dried product. Red hair = lower bag appeal wear I come from so I would advise against this method if this is a concern to you.
Major bump on this thread but, I searched leaving plants in darkness before harvest a couple days ago and this popped up.
I had to come back to this because this post was bugging the hell out of me. It really doesn't make sense. Are you harvesting when the hairs are all white? Even so, they should turn red after harvesting. Red hairs aren't going to magically appear after sticking the plant in the dark, there had to be hairs there to begin with, which brings me back to my first point.
"Red hair = lower bag appeal" where you come from, huh? Well, I guess I get that if it's just super hairy stuff but, it's pretty damn rare to have buds that have no hairs on them and guess what? They're gonna be red at the end. You definitely want them to be molted down but, there are some strains that just don't want to do that. That's the stuff to avoid in your area I guess.
The more I read this post the less it makes sense to me....
 
W

wethepe0ple

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I copied this over from the flushing thread...I can't remember if any of these links prove or disprove anything about darkness... I will say that I still flood at harvest and have done it with/without lights for the last three or four days...nobody has reported any diff in taste...I do know they like it when i use this method....since I trim by hand, by my fucking self usually cause my friends are assholes..lol, this allows me to not get rushed cause i like my shit trimmed right....anyway have a read, I am always interested to see if anyone else does this..




Here is a good read on flushing and how polar/non-polar solutions work, as i understand it a hydro (soilless too) nute solution is an ongoing chemical reation with equilibrium rules as in any chemical reaction....

I firmly believe that whatever your take is on how nutrients are fixed within a biomass the more important factor influencing taste is the drying and curing process. I can relate to that part as I come from Virginia tobacco farming family.

so anyway here is the article......

Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.



Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.



Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.



Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."



Now with an actual botanical understanding of how this works we move on to yet another botanical proven fact that if plants are drowned, which occurs in nature in the form of floods they go into a survival fermentaion mode converting sugars into alcohol I am reposting my ditty on harvesting and curing so you can see the evidence of this,,,,,,,,,,,,

Harvesting, Drying and Curing, A Research Study
The first word we used for this research was Oxidation, the second word is Fermentation as the fermentation process is what makes "the cure" work so understanding the fermentation process is very important.

Here at RIU there is a thread that includes a cut and paste from a book by Mel and Ed you all know I like Mels book I am not gonna paste it here as it is fairly long and this will be long enough as it is, but this same info appears on most every MJ forum and seems to be the basis for how we all cure today. It seems from my research that this was originally based on how tobaco is cured and we will get into that later, here is the RIU link to this info I advise you go read it then come back,,,,,,,,

Harvesting Curing Drying - Take Back the Knowledge

There is an old hippie growers myth that says to soak the roots in water for 3 to 10 days before harvest this is not to be confused with the flush that everyone talks about (you all know I don't flush before harvest, I flush always) the tip/myth is supposed to improve the quality of our smoke. I have to admit that I never paid it much attention until now because I have now proven it is not a myth and has some scientific validation.

What it amounts to is a way to start the cure prior to harvest while the plant is still alive. This is an incredible find as far as I am concerned and I can not wait to try it. what it amounts to is starving the plant of oxygen by drowning it, if in hydro take away the bubbles or spray fill the tank with water and wait, if in a pot either continuously water it (keep it wet/soaked) or stick the pot in a bigger bucket of water.

I need to add some background info as I'm getting ahead of myself, most of you know that if you add sugar and yeast together it ferments into alcohol giving off CO2. The basic definition of Fermentation is the act of breaking down sugars into alcohol and our plants do this internally thru a natural process even while growing. The act of fermentation is a oxidation/reduction process (explained in prior post) just as most plant functions seem to be. Also please be aware that N is needed for proper fermintation to take place.

Here is the info I found verifying that this old hippie myth is real,,,,,
MrMistery wrote:mad:jules

Plants use photosynthesis to make sugars out of water, CO2 and sunlight. But a plant cell (like any other cell) cannot use sugars for their cellular processes, it needs to break down the sugars and make ATP. Basically, the only difference between humans and plants in this chapter is that plants make their own sugars, while we get ours from food. But we still both need to use those sugars, and we do that through cellular respiration.

@douglebod
Fermentation is strictly defined as any way of anaerobically degrade pyruvic acid and recycle NAD+ to keep glycolysis going. You can then categorize this process as lactic acid fermentation (where pyruvate accepts electrons from NADH directly and becomes lactate), alcoholic fermentation (where pyruvate is first decarboxylated to acetaldehyde which then accepts electrons from NADH to become ethanol) and others (which are much more obscure). So technically, human cells are able to carry out lactic acid fermentation. Liver cells also have the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (responsible for ethanol formation in yeast and other fungi), but we use it in the reverse direction so to speak to get rid of any alcohol which we consume by converting it to pyruvate.
Plants however, can carry out alcoholic fermatation. They don't normally do it, because plants are usually in contact with oxygen. However, if you flood the root of a plant for about a week the cells are starved of oxygen, and because of this they will start carrying out alcoholic fermentation to survive.

-Andrei

very true
that is what my bio textbook says.
just to complete the last part
in alcoholic pathway ethanol forms a waste while the lactate formed in the lactate pathway can be broken down further. that is what leads to the oxygen debt
found here,


and,


Alcoholic Fermentation In Plants

By the following, which we find in the London Gardener's Chronicle, it will be seen that the discovery is somewhat akin to those of Prof. Burrill and others in this country:
"When plants are deprived of oxygen gas it appears that alcohol is formed in all their tissues without the aid of any ferment. If a vegetable cell containing sugar be cut off from its supply of oxygen - be suffocated, in fact - the sugar it contains becomes broken up or changed into carbonic acid, alcohol, and other products. Moreover, the various alcoholic ferments only produce their effects under the same conditions. Alcoholic fermentation, then, depends solely on the suffocation of a living cell containing sugar. Starting from these ascertained facts, M. Van Tieghem, in a recent number of the Annales Agronomiques, alludes to a peculiar disease in apple trees due to a suffocation of the roots, followed by the production of alcohol in their tissues. On microscopic examination the tissues were found healthy, except the medullary rays, the cells of which, instead of containing starch or sugar, contained brown oily globules, the residue left after the formation of the alcohol, which latter is diffused throughout the root, tinging the cells of a characteristic brown color, and giving rise to an easily detected alcoholic odor.
Judging from these appearances what was the nature of the disease, M. Van Tieghem made inquiries as to the character of the soil, and from this, as well as the fact that the season had been extremely wet, his diagnosis was confirmed, and he in consequence prescribed efficient drainage as the remedy for the disease, and with good effect.



found here,


one more


I am giving you this info first as it relates to doing something prior to the actual harvest chop. The rest of what I found will bring everything that we find already posted in the harvest forum to a hopefully better understanding.

We as MJ growers have modified/refined the basic knowledge of curing and fermentation of other plants due to the fact that our buds are not leaves and are therefore more subceptable to mold but the basic premise is the same, we don't add to much heat because it is known to degrade THC. We don't maintain higher humidity levels to avoid mold. The piling of the plants to induce fermentation is the same concept that makes composting work and for us home growers this is why we use a paper bag or cardboard box because it creates a scaled down compost/fermentation chamber, with this in mind pay great attention to why it is necessary to check often and rotate/rearrange the buds during this part of the process. Also know that this process will also continue once you put your buds into jars.

I also want to point out that while it is easier to trim your buds before drying that leaving the leafs on and hanging the plant allows the leafs to dry formed around the bud to protect it from various things most importantly oxidation which we know degrades the THC. It also allows the buds to dry more slowly which is what we truely want to happen.
My friend Shrubs did this on his second harvest, now I know why.

Please remember that patience is a virtue the slower they dry the better they will be,,,,,,,,period. To many growers are in a hurry and as a result speed things up once you read all of the info I am about to present you will see what I am saying is true as I have (yes I have read all of it)

Next I am going to share several MJ specific links about harvesting & curing as more heads are always better than one and the whole of all of them put together creates a pretty solid picture for us to consider as we try to improve our techniques. a couple of them even explain how to add flavors in case anyone wants to experiment a bit.

EDIT:

I HAVE EDITED THIS PART OUT AS I AM NOT SURE IF IT IS AGAINST THE FARM RULES TO HAVE LINKS TO OTHER MMJ SITES...AS LONG AS IT IS NOT AGAINST ANY RULES AND YOU ARE INTERESTED YOU CAN JUST GOOGLE "THE TRUTH ABOUT FLUSHING AND FIND THIS ARTICLE ON A PERSONAL WEBSITE

END EDIT

I am including the following links because they explain how other plants are cured in various different ways for color and taste this info will not only help us to better understand the various processes but may offer ideas for future experiments that might create a better end product. what you will see is while the techniques vary a bit they are all very similar.

Cacao (chocolate)
http://www.allchocolate.com/understa...o_factory.aspx

Tea


http://the-leaf.org/issue 2/wp-con...age-layout.pdf

Tobacco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco#Curing











lots of other plants



We're almost finished, I found a couple more things that I know will spark your DIY talents for technique tweaking LOL

Here is a homemade drying chamber
http://www.coffinails.com/curing_tobacco.html

here is a homemade fermentation chamber


in the comments section they mention an egg incubator that has adjustable heat and humidity for around $70, here it is


and that brings us to the end of my research. I spent about 20 hours on all of this but you should be able to follow it all in just 2 or 3 since I was going thru 100's of pages to find the ones I have posted

I hope that everyone that reads this comes away with a better understanding of how it all works and that as a result we all have better herb to enjoy in the future

Happy Harvesting



Lots of us here that follow this technique have had excellent results and have found that an extended dark period of 3~4 days speeds up the drowning/fermentation process

Let the discussion begin[/QUOTe
 
W

wethepe0ple

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1
really interesting ...and do agree with the fermentation process..
 
rmoltis

rmoltis

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"Red hair = lower bag appeal" where you come from, huh? Well, I guess I get that if it's just super hairy stuff but, it's pretty damn rare to have buds that have no hairs on them and guess what? They're gonna be red at the end. You definitely want them to be molted down but, there are some strains that just don't want to do that. That's the stuff to avoid in your area I guess.
The more I read this post the less it makes sense to me....


I guess my last harvest is no good then?

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I personally would say that crazy red hairs would exhibit their own unique bag appeal that you don't see often.
 
Augestwest

Augestwest

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I guess my last harvest is no good then?

View attachment 657784 View attachment 657785 View attachment 657786

I personally would say that crazy red hairs would exhibit their own unique bag appeal that you don't see often.
I'm sorry but that looks like you could have went way longer. What strain is that and how many weeks are you going? Maybe you use Florencent lighting? Idk I'm not trying to sound like a Dick but that looks like it's at about week 5-6 flower
 
Augestwest

Augestwest

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Iv always harvested when it was ready and just chopped right befor lights on but my buddy swears by doing the 72hrs darkness. I'm gonna give it a try and see what happens. Here's a pic of my og pie breath (top pic) grape Ape(middle pic) and galactic jack (bottom pic)a couple weeks ago for some eye candy
 
C

Cannibal Joe

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The girls are ready two plus weeks of flushing is done .

Now I've heard that leaving in the dark 24 hours or 48 or more (as much as two weeks?)will improve potency or trichome production .

Any body got any ideas on this ?

I was thinking to keep them in the for 48 hours and then 12 hours of light again and 12 dark and harvest .
 
C

Cannibal Joe

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Light is energy and your plant needs that.The biology of a cannibis requires that it receive light photons to produce sugars for biological function and sweeting of the cola.Terpins are also being formed in the tricombs.In short no , it will just stress the plant to shut down.If what you are trying to do is harvest at the highest thc level look at the tricomds ( hairs on leaves and flowers ) you'll see that there is a clear to cloudy sack at the end of hair.When this is cloudy to yellow it's ready.You'll need a magnifier to do that! A good one.Good luck Bruno I hope this was helpful.
 
GT21

GT21

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How do trichs mature? How do they oxidize? Can you lengthen a trich stalk or thicken a trich cuticle in the dark?



They say 12 hours for pot...
 
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Papa Indica

Papa Indica

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Trichomes are not hairs and hairs are not trichomes, and the question is regarding the last 24-48 hours, we all know light is food and fuel for a plant but, sometimes with cannabis it's good to give it a little shock to achieve a desired effect.
 
Schkronis

Schkronis

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I did try 36 hrs for a couple of runs - it sure improved taste for me noticably (GG4, Kosher and Triangle). What I'm trying now is for the last 3 days to give them 21h dark and 3hr lights on. My thinking behind it that light will degrade trichs, but it still needed to produce more during a next 21hr of darkness.
 
RippedTorn

RippedTorn

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How do trichs mature? How do they oxidize? Can you lengthen a trich stalk or thicken a trich cuticle in the dark?



They say 12 hours for pot...


Believe it or not, flowers aren't the end game! Resin is. Isoprenoid biosynthesis is the goal, not flower blooms.

All starts with Isopentenyl diphosphate in the mevalonic acid pathway (or maybe the DXP pathway, I'm no Cannabis expert)
 
B

Bcheflower

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1
I will be doing this tomorrow I stick en in darkness for 2 days I got white widow right now that I think is a little over but we will see.
 
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