Breeders Die

[Farmer Jon]

20 years ago there wasn't a huge population of people growing marijuana.....
FJ

 

[Seamaiden]

Did the breeding of brussel sprouts destroy the kale industry? Does the existence of Boston Terriers mean that the wolf population is in danger?

It's ridiculous to assume that artificial selection is harmful to the process of natural selection that created the parent species.

The introduction of hybridized lines into a pure landrace strain environment could be temporarily harmful, but as long as the natural biological pressures of the given environment remains the same then the artificially bred characteristics will certainly be squeezed out of the gene pool.

Oh, I SO disagree with that. Are brussels sprouts illegal? How about Boston Terriers? Forcing cannabis growing underground has done a lot to harm breeding efforts. The war on drugs and the efforts put behind that to eradicate cannabis completely got the ball rolling. The current status of cannabis breeding leaves us with a few problems; genetics being mixed up in such a way as to cause an almost complete homogenization; selection methods used by some breeders; and what's happened to the total cannabis genome as a consequence?

Landrace strains are landraces because they were able to be grown in sufficient numbers and because they (the farmers) were able to select plants that naturalized best in their given environment. Everything else is muddied up and muddying up the genetic waters.

And for further evidence of how artificial selection can really fuck things up for subsequent progeny, I give you several breeds of goldfish (celestial eye, bubble eye, ryuku), wait, actually now that I think about it there isn't one breed of goldfish except what is known as the pond comet that ISN'T so incredibly physically convoluted and screwed up that it can't live in the wild without a lot of special support from the humans that created it in the first place.

And then we can talk about dogs.

i think we should just have caution and try to preserve our landrace genes, for the same reasons we need to do the same with our food supply genes

This.

 

[GanjaGardener]

And catfish too.

 

[Seamaiden]

Ok, you make me laugh out loud. I don't know which smilie to use.

If your fancy goldfish becomes constipated (a very common problem for the poor things), then increase its fiber. Try fresh frozen green peas, squeezed out of their skins, along with leafy green veggies on a clip. Stop feeding worms, daphia and the like until its poops are normal.

 

[Calicannabiseed]

Oh, I SO disagree with that. Are brussels sprouts illegal? How about Boston Terriers? Forcing cannabis growing underground has done a lot to harm breeding efforts. The war on drugs and the efforts put behind that to eradicate cannabis completely got the ball rolling. The current status of cannabis breeding leaves us with a few problems; genetics being mixed up in such a way as to cause an almost complete homogenization; selection methods used by some breeders; and what's happened to the total cannabis genome as a consequence?

Landrace strains are landraces because they were able to be grown in sufficient numbers and because they (the farmers) were able to select plants that naturalized best in their given environment. Everything else is muddied up and muddying up the genetic waters.

And for further evidence of how artificial selection can really fuck things up for subsequent progeny, I give you several breeds of goldfish (celestial eye, bubble eye, ryuku), wait, actually now that I think about it there isn't one breed of goldfish except what is known as the pond comet that ISN'T so incredibly physically convoluted and screwed up that it can't live in the wild without a lot of special support from the humans that created it in the first place.

And then we can talk about dogs.

This.

I have to totally agree. The fact that Cannabis is illegal has caused the breeding of it to go underground. What standards are established underground? NONE!! So the waters are muddy to say the least...:-)

 

[burnalot420]

Did the breeding of brussel sprouts destroy the kale industry? Does the existence of Boston Terriers mean that the wolf population is in danger?

It's ridiculous to assume that artificial selection is harmful to the process of natural selection that created the parent species.

The introduction of hybridized lines into a pure landrace strain environment could be temporarily harmful, but as long as the natural biological pressures of the given environment remains the same then the artificially bred characteristics will certainly be squeezed out of the gene pool.

I would have to disagree somewhat...its a term probably familiar called genetic bottlenecking....the use of the same genes over and over again can lead to irreversible damage..yes some of those traits might eventually be squeezed out..but when breeders are selectively breeding for this trait or that,that of which in some instances has been going on for many many years,its highly doubtful that these genes are going to be purged out of the gene pool naturally..

another scary example is the use of gmo's..what happens when gmo pollen( is spread to crops of say some other landrace...it is no longer a landrace...

look at mexico...thay banned gmo corn in the country..(mexico is where corn is landrace to) yet gmo corn is sprouting up in farmers fields?!?Things like this pollute our natural gene pool..usually for the profit of a company...whether it be Monsanto or the shady breeding of rez lol its happening..

I think that slective breeding does in fact lead to long term irreversible damage that we have yet to see.After all our time here is but minuscule in the grand scheme of things..we will have to just wait and see

 

[purpleberry]

Isnt there enough old seed stock being held on to by some breeders?
What breeding practices need to be done?
Ive pollen chucked and have thought about breeding more, My thoughts are if Im going to sell seeds, Id want to make my own ibl that is stable, well tested, and results that will be what people want. Not just cross this with that, here you go. Problem with that is, you do all the work, then breeders grab your work and spit out crosses. LOL

 

[mellokitty]

as far as overbreeding, propagation of mutagens, under-culling of potential weak links, it comes down more to structure of the seed market than the individual breeders themselves. (<- which ultimately boils down to prohibition and the resulting lack of regulation, etc, but that can get to be a lengthy digression.)

i tend to think that the indiscriminate use of stuff like pesticides, fungicides, antibiotics, antivirals, and weed-killers in the agriculture industry (among others) has a lot to do with our problems too. supermolds and superfungi are being bred right alongside superbugs. the PM we see now isn't the same PM, even as 10 years ago. i've seen shit happen overnight that would have required a week of neglect in yesteryears.

 

[Lost]

It is my strong belief that breeders have weakened the gene pool. The fact that 20 years ago I never saw powdery mildew, never saw or heard of anyone with spider mites. Now there is an epidemic of these things. It is a direct result of feminizing which takes out the male gene thus making the plant weak and susceptible to disease and pests. I stress that it is not the breeders fault but the growers demand for all female seeds.

Because 20 years ago everyone mostly grew outside. The boom of the indoor market caused these problems not breeders. I also do not see femed seeds causing any real problems.

So I would blame indoor growers for the woes of PM and mites. In fact we provide perfect environments for them. Also I got Fungas Gnats once because my lawn was infested with them. Didn't have anything to do with anything other than a major infestation in my yard, and when they discovered what was in the garage, tehy went crazy till I nuked the little fuckers. And even tht is contributing to the resistant bugs we have today (The nortorious So CAL Spidermite).

 

[burnalot420]

as far as overbreeding, propagation of mutagens, under-culling of potential weak links, it comes down more to structure of the seed market than the individual breeders themselves. (<- which ultimately boils down to prohibition and the resulting lack of regulation, etc, but that can get to be a lengthy digression.)

i tend to think that the indiscriminate use of stuff like pesticides, fungicides, antibiotics, antivirals, and weed-killers in the agriculture industry (among others) has a lot to do with our problems too. Supermolds and superfungi are being bred right alongside superbugs. The pm we see now isn't the same pm, even as 10 years ago. I've seen shit happen overnight that would have required a week of neglect in yesteryears.

monsanto is the problem

buy organic

grow organic seed

 

[GanjaGardener]

monsanto is the problem

Along w/ mj's old buddy DuPont. Type Dupont in Search Field
... that's just their product list- their chem patents are are all over the ag biz.

buy organic

grow organic seed

Right on! That's forward thinking in my book. Synthetics have served their purpose, (and then some.) Time to move on and clean up. 90% of Cuba's produce is grown in urban areas using permaculture techniques.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Because 20 years ago everyone mostly grew outside. The boom of the indoor market caused these problems not breeders.
(The nortorious So CAL Spidermite).

Goddam LA houseplants.

 

[Seamaiden]

Isnt there enough old seed stock being held on to by some breeders?
What breeding practices need to be done?
Ive pollen chucked and have thought about breeding more, My thoughts are if Im going to sell seeds, Id want to make my own ibl that is stable, well tested, and results that will be what people want. Not just cross this with that, here you go. Problem with that is, you do all the work, then breeders grab your work and spit out crosses. LOL

When I make seeds, I make a very specific effort to include as much of the available genetic material as I can. Why? Because, I lack a good sense of smell, haven't been growing long enough to really have an idea of what I should be selecting out for, and want to preserve as much genetic variation as I possibly can. So, to that end I ALWAYS keep all males, mix their pollen and do 'open pollination', i.e. I pollinate all the girls with this mixed pollen. I keep records on the females so that is known.

The goal is to preserve genetic material because that equals diversity, and diversity equals health. The way to do that is to grow as much of both sexes as you can in the largest numbers possible. On an agricultural scale that's hundreds or thousands of plants grown at each generation.

I'm beginning also to think in terms of naturalization, because when you examine the old heritage breeds and the way they became heritage breeds (i.e. heirloom) is that they were, in very large part, naturalized. The farmer selects seed stock to save from his healthiest, most robust, those with the most flavor or best production. This applies to flora and fauna. And so, I am beginning to select for naturalization purposes my vegetables and will, once I can begin growing subsequent cannabis generations in earnest, so will I with Mary be able to select out those lines that perform best for me in my local conditions.

:harvest:

 

[Seamaiden]

Also, I disagree with the notion that it's pesticide use moreso than poor selection methods that has allowed the proliferation of pests and disease on a scale not previously experienced. I personally believe that it's the selection methods the majority of breeders are using, whereby plants are selected for appearance, high, smell, flavor *instead of* being selected for vigor and growth habits as well.

We see this in other organisms humans breed selectively, dogs for instance. It is well known that certain breeds are prone to certain problems or types of problems, including but not limited to both physiological (form, conformation) and disease occurrence and resistance (cancers, etc). Why not with cannabis? In fact, we do see it with cannabis. If I recall, isn't it known that some Chemdog D lines carry mosaic virus?

I hope I'm qualifying my statements well here, I'm not saying I'm right and others who believe differently are wrong, just that I disagree and have this different idea.

 

[Lost]

Yea, funny thing is aspertane the sweetner was banned by the FDA because it caused cancer in rats. Monsnto bought the product and like 2 years later they had approval even tho there were studies that showed it caused cancer in mice. Thats the scarry underbelly of America no one knows about. Its these people and people that own these companies that have destroyed America. AkA - Republicans..

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

nm way off topic

 

[mellokitty]

i didn't want start talking selection methods/priorities because that's where you start running into sweeping generalizations. i happen to know a number of breeders who DO select for vigour and disease/pest resistance (usually the ones who carry OD strains), but i agree that selective *tendencies have a major detrimental impact (basset hounds. poor fucking things). that said, if our market was structured in such a way that said less-vigilant breeders' product didn't make its way to JoePublic so easily, lack of selective principles in individual breeders wouldn't be as big a deal. (and again we start running into legal logistics). but then again it's legal to breed most dogs in most places but puppy mills and indiscriminate breeders are still a problem. but then i guess that comes down to lack of control/enforcement, consumer integrity too. although i know that in my town, due to some recent events, things are about to get a lot stricter for that sort of thing on a bylaw level.

and, btw, in case you misunderstood me, i'm not talking about our (cannabis farmers') use of pesticides et al. but in the industries that grow vast tracts of single crops like the grains and some fruits and veggies (our OD farmers tend to want to work *with the existing flora :)). maybe i've been reading too much derrick jensen lately, but i find it hard to believe that human agricultural interventions aren't changing the pests/diseases themselves.

and yes, yes. i'm not xtian (or particularly religious), but monsanto is the Devil Incorporate. absofuckinglutely.

 

[420Gator]

Also, I disagree with the notion that it's pesticide use moreso than poor selection methods that has allowed the proliferation of pests and disease on a scale not previously experienced. I personally believe that it's the selection methods the majority of breeders are using, whereby plants are selected for appearance, high, smell, flavor *instead of* being selected for vigor and growth habits as well.

We see this in other organisms humans breed selectively, dogs for instance. It is well known that certain breeds are prone to certain problems or types of problems, including but not limited to both physiological (form, conformation) and disease occurrence and resistance (cancers, etc). Why not with cannabis? In fact, we do see it with cannabis. If I recall, isn't it known that some Chemdog D lines carry mosaic virus?

I hope I'm qualifying my statements well here, I'm not saying I'm right and others who believe differently are wrong, just that I disagree and have this different idea.

exactly, its breed to yield mass amounts of potent herb

ofcourse some strains cant defend off disease, they cant even hold their own flowers up anymore

so the question is if one wants to grow decent bud on a super strong plant OR grow the dankest shit out there but have to baby the plants

 

[GanjaGardener]

the plants never were or will be immune to mites or fungi

Though i NEVER want this to happen, Monsanto/Dow/Dupont could probably do something about it.

but at what a cost? [and i don't mean dollars]

1) The CEO/Board's ancestors would have to start out life w/ a smaller silver spoon? (Oops, I forgot. That's dollars/euros/yen etc)
2)The blue, forest green, tan and white colors of our planet would be replaced by shades of olive, gold, and rust?
3)Barring mass extinction, the human species might continue to survive but in greatly reduced numbers and no longer at the top of the food chain?

 

[Lost]

Seamaiden, being from the socal scene, i disagree that the growers themselvs are not part of the problem. Any living thing wants to live. Even the most sickly plant will pull thru alot of the time with little care. No, I say it the environments and then the use of pesticides (incomplete use actually) that makes bugs like the so cal borg, almost impossible to get rid of even with chems. We have known for years that pesticides loose effiency when they have been deployed time and time again on bugs that have either built up a resistance, or for some genetic quirk to make them immune.

Also have you seen some of the gardens in socal? It looks like some of them are breeding mites and pm, not mj.. lol..