Breeders Die

[lazarus718]

I'm beginning also to think in terms of naturalization, because when you examine the old heritage breeds and the way they became heritage breeds (i.e. heirloom) is that they were, in very large part, naturalized. The farmer selects seed stock to save from his healthiest, most robust, those with the most flavor or best production. This applies to flora and fauna. And so, I am beginning to select for naturalization purposes my vegetables and will, once I can begin growing subsequent cannabis generations in earnest, so will I with Mary be able to select out those lines that perform best for me in my local conditions.

:harvest:

I like this analogy Maiden...as a grower of many plant species I do the very same thing when I find my needle in the haystack. I love growing from seed and when I find that special plant I save the strongest, most flavorful, striking seeds of the bunch. Love growing heirloom plants and the histories behind them are just amazing. Your selection process is what is going to continue the strong genetics and I'm sure there are plenty of other growers out there with similar thoughts. Yes, the wrong breeding choices will contribute to the market being flooded with inferior genetics, but those of us committed to discovering and identifying the "heirloom" genes will still continue to propagate the species as they should be grown. We'll always have breeders dedicated to maintaining the integrity and quality of this plant species and you'll be able to purchase their work and be confident with growing their product. It will be appreciated just as those crazy hybrids will. With a plant this easy to grow and with so many people doing so you are not going to be able to control what is crossed with what...but the OG's will know the impostors and the word will be let out.

 

[Seamaiden]

Lost, I lived well over 30 years in SoCal (east of LA, about 22miles, give or take). I'm very familiar with conditions down there, in fact, I have some opinions on how gardening in general down there has affected pests' ability to resist treatment and the presence of other resistant diseases.

For instance, when comparing the millions of "regular" gardeners and how they treat the landscape to cannabis growers, to my mind cannabis growers pale in comparison just in sheer numbers. And so when I land there, I wonder, Why would cannabis growers be responsible for that which already existed? Thrips, whiteflies, aphids of all sorts, powdery mildew, spider mites of many sorts--I've seen these present in plague proportions in many landscape gardens decades ago.

I also had my first experience with Septoria (black spot) after receiving a cut from a grower in the central valley. Took me weeks to figure it out, and then I started hitting ag sites. That was when I realized that even if cannabis isn't normally infected, may not have even been "vectored", it came from an area where this disease is but one of many prominent diseases. I had to treat that Septoria with the highest dose possible, too, which would suggest it has some real virulence, and perhaps that is the case because its ancestors lived through treatments that produced a more resistant fungus.

Lazarus, thank you, it makes me happy to feel understood, grokked, even. :)

 

[Lost]

I had to treat that Septoria with the highest dose possible, too, which would suggest it has some real virulence, and perhaps that is the case because its ancestors lived through treatments that produced a more resistant fungus.

Seamaiden, exactly the point I was making. Im not saying MJ farmers "Created" any of the diseases we now see. But I am saying they have stregnthed their ability to not be killed by methods we use, and because of the environment alot of MJ farmers have, is conducive to building resistance.

 

[Lost]

BTW breeders are making the genetic footprint of this plant bigger, not smaller. We are breeding new strains and when you do so, mutations occur, increasing the genetic diversity of the gene pool. :)

 

[Toes]

as does devolution...

...This view is rejected by modern evolutionary theory, in which adaptation arises from natural selection of forms best suited to the environment, and so can lead to loss of features when these features are costly to maintain. Thus for cave dwelling animals the loss of eyes arises because it is an advantage, not degeneracy.[1]...

is the weed getting stronger or the advertising?

George Washington may have grown hemp... but he bred roses... Our first President not only bred them, a variety he named after his mother is still grown today... we love breeders, we need breeders. we need breeders... who have a passion for the art form. we need breeders to stay true to the cultivars, and to the real reasons why we need to create new breeds. if your going to do something, make it your opus....

So, no... breeders please don't die...

...but all you fake ass 1 off knock off artists, charging $20 a bean for some aids infested hybrid of a hybrid of a hybrid you got yesterday.... Google who Professor Charles S. Sargent is before you [EDIT]try to[/EDIT] rape my bank account...

 

[TortureKill]

Thing is, no matter how fast breeder in the west change things - out in Afganistan and Iran and everywhere else they are still breeding pure. They are not wasting their time ion this strain or that clone - the have been growing the same shit for a LONG time, and will keep doing it as long as there are people alive to smoke it. The western breeders are just filling a gap in a changing market.

You're right many countries are still growing and seeding the same strains they grew 50 or maybe 100 years prior, but how many of these countries are also victims of the "WAR ON DRUGS"? How many lines have been lost or are on the verge of extinction bc troops are rallied and commanded to eradicate entire fields in these other countries. Its very important to keep these pure lines around for the future growers and breeders of this plant. Ive smoked my share of pure, nonhybridised, and landrace strains..And there is something very different, something very special about these lines. The buzz is always very clean, and revealing. Unlike any of other strains I have ever sampled. I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to experience these sacred genetics. Its these lines that all of the hybrids and the clone only strains we know and love came from. Its very important we preserve these.

I keep many of my own pure lines and I will continue doing my part to grow and preserve them til my last days

There's lots of good discussion here. Seamaiden, lost, youve all hit some good points. Earlier stated, this biz is NOT regulated, and shady practices are going on and these ignorant people will always be around looking for another grower to take advantage of. One more to pawn their overpriced hybrid or femmed seed off on.. Its our job, the grower/customer, to do our homework on everyone breeder, and identify who's doing shit the right way and who isn't. Support the guys that are knowledgeable in the art, and keep the riff raff out. Ive seen many breeders offering only pure lines, go under. Growers just weren't interested in what they were offering, and all eyes were on the flavor of the month..

Another thing I don't understand is, how are these breeders coming up offering only fem seed? This is not breeding.. Anyone can spritz some STS on a plant, this doesnt constitute a breeder.. If these seeds are easier to create, Why are they more expensive? It only takes 8-10 weeks to create feminized seeds. Its not necessary to keep mothers and studs around, no selection is needed... Wadafuxupwitit???

 

[Seamaiden]

I have no answer for the feminized beans, I'm still learning and trying to wrap my head around how sexual expression can be pushed one way or another (outside of feminization, that is).

Seamaiden, exactly the point I was making. Im not saying MJ farmers "Created" any of the diseases we now see. But I am saying they have stregnthed their ability to not be killed by methods we use, and because of the environment alot of MJ farmers have, is conducive to building resistance.

The way I understand you, you're asserting that cannabis growers are responsible for many of the resistant diseases and pests we experience. I disagree with this idea, I feel that crops and landscape gardens are where this occurred and is still occurring on a much larger, vaster, grander scale than anyone growing cannabis could ever hope to realize. I think that home gardeners are about as ignorant as anyone else, including cannabis growers, too.

BTW breeders are making the genetic footprint of this plant bigger, not smaller. We are breeding new strains and when you do so, mutations occur, increasing the genetic diversity of the gene pool. :)

I feel you've got it backward, no offense intended. You might want to look into the issues with agricultural crops that occur specifically because of how genetics are being mixed up into new stock, which can dilute or even eliminate other genetic code. And when cannabis breeders who are after some rather specific features breed for those features, others are lost, I'm certain in some instances never to be "found" (in the gene pool) again. This has created a virtual genetic bottleneck, and I don't think it's just my opinion (though I do hold this opinion), and bottlenecks are already known to reduce diversity, not increase it.

Perhaps this link will help.

 

[Illmind]

because fem seeds done right are less hassle no sexing involved and also u get the best offspring that resemble the p1 without years of selective breeding sometimes even better. i mean is there not 50 plus different og cuts? all not s1s im sure but the majority i can believe. also chec bubba kush s1s. imo it's best to s1 and already worked momma because they more stable. tk i also used to think fem seeds were bogus, took a lot of results to show me otherwise, i also think its all in the method in which they are created that determines the stress traits like herm n auto flowering. fwiw if u gonna s1 then use two plants stress 1 for pollen and seed a healthy unstressed fem. wow im a badass writer lol i need to hire a typist

 

[mellokitty]

I feel that crops and landscape gardens are where this occurred and is still occurring on a much larger, vaster, grander scale than anyone growing cannabis could ever hope to realize. I think that home gardeners are about as ignorant as anyone else, including cannabis growers, too.

^couldn't agree more.

and any skeptics that don't believe in the harms of genetic bottlenecking should keep a close eye on what happens to industrial alfalfa over the next couple years....

 

[Lost]

I have no answer for the feminized beans, I'm still learning and trying to wrap my head around how sexual expression can be pushed one way or another (outside of feminization, that is).

The way I understand you, you're asserting that cannabis growers are responsible for many of the resistant diseases and pests we experience. I disagree with this idea, I feel that crops and landscape gardens are where this occurred and is still occurring on a much larger, vaster, grander scale than anyone growing cannabis could ever hope to realize. I think that home gardeners are about as ignorant as anyone else, including cannabis growers, too.

I feel you've got it backward, no offense intended. You might want to look into the issues with agricultural crops that occur specifically because of how genetics are being mixed up into new stock, which can dilute or even eliminate other genetic code. And when cannabis breeders who are after some rather specific features breed for those features, others are lost, I'm certain in some instances never to be "found" (in the gene pool) again. This has created a virtual genetic bottleneck, and I don't think it's just my opinion (though I do hold this opinion), and bottlenecks are already known to reduce diversity, not increase it.

Perhaps this link will help.

I'll check out the link but here is somethig to ponder. We have more varieties of pot today than we had 50 yers ago, correct? The more the landraces are crossed, the more they are bread, and the more genetic mutations occur, the more diverse the genetic makeup becomes.

What your talking about is more of the African Cheetah problem. They interbread so much, and there was ao little genetic diversity, they almost go wiped out because of their lack of genetic diversity so no animal was able to come up with a resistance to a certain disease.

However what breeders are taking landraces and such from all parts of the world, introducing genes into the plants we are working on that would have never been there before. This idea that when you have a diverse gene pool and you start mixing your causing problems is erronous. Ever see a happa kid? Gunna tell me that mixing of the genes does not make for a better gene pool? I don't believe it :)

Also, I do not understand how you do not understand that over chemming and checm resistances has increased the porblem beyond what it would have been. I'm not saying indoor growing created these things, it just made it worse.

Its like when you take antibiotics and you don't finish the bottle up. The baddies that were not killed build up a resistance, and the next time you usethat antibiotic, its much less inneffective. The next time even moreso.. Eventually it does nothing because the baddie mutated and the antibiotic can no longer have any effect. The excat same thing happens in indoor MJ growing, which is why I mentioned the socal borg. Almost totally resistant to things like Dr Doom, because of this exact effect.

Going to read your article now :)

 

[Lost]

^couldn't agree more.

and any skeptics that don't believe in the harms of genetic bottlenecking should keep a close eye on what happens to industrial alfalfa over the next couple years....

If we were simply crossing the same strains we would be creating a bottle nect. We are doing the opposite by crossing many plants with things from across the world increasing the genetic diversity. Now if you continue breeding to stabilize, your possibly creating a bottle nexk, but consider this.

You have plant a and plant b. You cross them and get plant c. Plant a and b still exist, so you have actually created genetic diversity by mashing up genes that were not previously mashed up.. You still have all the genes in tact of plant a and b and now you have a hybrid, plant c. Not to mention there might have been mutation with the replication, which would be creating genes that did not previously exist. If you exterminate a and b that may be a problem, but thats not what breeders are doing.

 

[Lost]

Ok, just skimmed the first few sentences and I'm pretty sure its something I have studied. Please note that this fits my african cheetah reference. MJ does not have a diversity problem, so mixing helps not hinders.. :)


Yeap.. Reread article, remember studing it in college..

Because the genetic diversity is varied in the population (there are tons of stable "species" so there is not inbreeding going on generation after generation with the same genetic material.) It becomes a problem when all of the existing members have the same genetic material exposing them to disease and other issues. But that is not what we are dealing with in mj. And if you look at parenting from the same plant (reversing), this is only a single generational issue and the plant could be crossed at any time with a different plant with different genetic make up refreshing the genetics. If there were no other plants with different genetic material, then what you are saying would be true, but thats not the situation MJ is in.


:)

 

[GanjaGardener]

Michael Pollan's book (and basis for the PBS documentary), The Botany of Desire, offers an eloquent perspective on the interplay between man and plant and the reciprocal nature of their evolution and coevolution. To find out where botany's cutting edge technology is today, Pollan points to the cannabis growing community.

Book Summary, BookBrowse.com:
In 1637, one Dutchman paid as much for a single tulip bulb as the going price of a town house in Amsterdam. Three and a half centuries later, Amsterdam is once again the mecca for people who care passionately about one particular plant -- though this time the obsessions revolves around the intoxicating effects of marijuana rather than the visual beauty of the tulip. How could flowers, of all things, become such objects of desire that they can drive men to financial ruin?

In The Botany of Desire, Michael Pollan argues that the answer lies at the heart of the intimately reciprocal relationship between people and plants. In telling the stories of four familiar plant species that are deeply woven into the fabric of our lives, Pollan illustrates how they evolved to satisfy humankinds's most basic yearnings -- and by doing so made themselves indispensable. For, just as we've benefited from these plants, the plants, in the grand co-evolutionary scheme that Pollan evokes so brilliantly, have done well by us. The sweetness of apples, for example, induced the early Americans to spread the species, giving the tree a whole new continent in which to blossom. So who is really domesticating whom?

Weaving fascinating anecdotes and accessible science into gorgeous prose, Pollan takes us on an absorbing journey that will change the way we think about our place in nature.

YouTube Videos:
"Botany of Desire", Cannabis (9min summary-very basic intro)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWX0_vuS890

"Cannabis, Forgetting and the Botany of Desire" UC Berkley Lecture (60 min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeCra-sn0dI

 

[Lost]

. To find out where botany's cutting edge technology is today, Pollan points to the cannabis growing community.

Thats what im saying. :harvest:

 

[GanjaGardener]

Thats what im saying. :harvest:

We're all in this together regardless of the thread title, (which i still don't get.)

 

[420Gator]

i have to agree with lost

how is mj bottle necked with a now "run away" number of strains, sooo many diferent varieties (anyone feel free to take a wild guess on how many:hunter:)

its not a bottleneck, its a bunch of rivers draining into an ocean

 

[Illmind]

ya i dont get it either i've ran polys and seen traits from first ocross which in some cases is 15 plants removed. i wish u could isolate and remove traits completely, vast majority ya but all offspring no. good test would be removing sour ds nanner popping trait and e32 tw while someones at it.

 

[homebrew420]

Come on everybody there is not any one side to this story. Some breeders are doing a great job improving and furthering these plant, while others don't care about removing undesirable traits from the gene pool. I won't bother to point any fingers... There are some "breeders" who are really glorified pollen chuckers that happen to be working with some of the best strains around. When you mix fire and fire you get....wait for it...FIRE! Most of the time.
Bottlenecking of a genetic pool seems to me to be caused mostly by laziness of the breeder, IMO. There is no reason that you couldn't find 3 males or more and 3 or more females within a group of seeds to use for breeding. Maybe even every 3 seed runs. This may add a bit of variation to an IBL but that is kind of the point I think. Diversity is present within a healthy gene pool. the happy medium can be found with a little knowledge of the breeding pair being used as well.

 

[Toes]

I'm going to do my part to help keep Ganjascloricytis cases from popping up... i think maybe the Skunk x Skunkberry/Super Dooper Skunk Haze f1's im working on... to cross with the Skunk Kush ( i like to call it Skush ) x Skurple f1's, need a little more of that Hella Gnarley Lemon Skunk X Nebraska Diesel f1 stock.

 

[Seamaiden]

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