Breeding for whorls

[Sativied]

Some more whorled thoughts...

I'm only speculating (though based on a good amount of research) but it seems that auxin concentrations determine where a leaf starts, but also depletes some of the auxins around that area, creating a sort of hotspot. The opposite site of the stem is least affected by the start of the leaf, allowing an auxin concentration high enough to create a leaf there too.

My theory lines up with my perception [...] What happens is that after several regular opposite phyllotaxy nodes is that one node turns (golden angle) and a node later that leaves enough space (and auxins) for a third leaf to spawn.

"Phyllotaxis is the regular positioning of lateral organs
around a stem (Kuhlemeier, 2007). The divergence an-
gles between successive organs are species dependent
but most frequently tend toward 137.5°, which results
in spiral phyllotaxis. The 19th century German botanist
Wilhelm Hofmeister was the first to meticulously de-
scribe a property shared by almost all phyllotactic
patterns, now referred to as the Hofmeister rule: new
organ primordia are placed in the widest available gap
in the meristem, as far away as possible from preexist-
ing primordia (Hofmeister, 1868)."

Phyllotaxy is leaf arrangement and to catch most lights the leaves should obviously be arranged in such a way that there's as little overlap as possible. With 2 leaves at a node on cannabis plants this Hofmeister rule automatically results in opposite phyllotaxy.

With 3 leaves per node, i.e. what I call tri-whorled, they should be evenly spread with a 120 degree angle in between them. That is NOT always the case. Alligator also posted one of those where 2 of the 3 are sort of on one side, and there should be 2 on the opposite side to spread them evenly, but instead there's one. Perhaps described by Hofmeister in his complete work, but it's not as consistent as the word "rule" implies. When the sets after the first neat whorling nodes don't follow the rule, the auxin regulation is not consistent enough, it's simply put unstable.

Makes it imo even more beautiful that two nodes of three leaves each don't overlap in tri-whorled. The plant essentially rotates the next set 60 degrees. This just shows how accurate it is in finding the widest gap available.

Anyway, I haven't had a tri-whorled that didn't start with that divergent leaf leaving enough space for auxin to accumulate and create a third, it's for my whorlers a requirement. As a matter of fact, it's the only requirement, the rest happens automatically according to the Hoffmeister rule.

I'm currently harvesting pollen from a CHxCH tri-whorled male. Looks like one of the other two I found recently is male too. I like that one better so will probably use that one instead, or both. I will continue to try and get a whorling line from my current breeding stock, but I have to say that looking for tricots is starting to become more and more attractive. There are a few breeding techniques that would be very suitable (because the trait can be spotted as soon as it germinated I could run more than a couple of dozen).

 

[Sativied]

"Borrowed" from computer models trying to simulate and explain phyllotaxy. First is regular opposite, second is more spiral but roughly shows what happens with that divergent leaf, and third is tri-whorled. (link to mpeg video of the spiral)

I mentioned before in this thread that the whorlers likely create more auxins, so more of those hotspots evolve, and that that could explain why there may be more whorlers amongst males. The opposite might be true as well, or there might simply not be a difference.

"Polar localization of the PIN1 efflux carrier in meristematic cells generates auxin concentration gradients and PIN1 localization depends, in turn, on auxin gradients: this feedback loop generates a dynamic auxin distribution which controls phyllotaxis. Furthermore, PIN-dependent local auxin gradients represent a common module for organ initiation, in the shoot and in the root."

Whorled phyllotaxy is also referred to as tricussate, and regular opposite as decussate. Decussate meaning x shaped, so it does specifically include the two non-overlapping nodes.

 

[FlyinJStable]

Hey @Sativied hope your doin well and your girls are all frosty....

Im looking forward to the Candi-Cain spiral of buds up the stem that will be a shizl-nit
Keeping it simple, What IMO seeing the staggered leaf buds that make a growing spiral up a stem will be much tighter with the three lf pattern
and that's what its all about right? more light, more bud, and One bad ass looking lady. . . . .
I believe that you rock the 120 degree super plant . . . . .
Take care Sati Man
FlyJ

I want to go from this spiral to the three leaf super Candi Tri-Kome spiral LoL just a bud fantasy of mine.
Peace

 

[Sativied]

Ok, I just found what's probably the best resource on phyllotaxy I found so far, especially when including the references at the bottom

Phyllotaxis: In Search of the Golden Angle
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982211006415

Excerpt:
"The regularity of the arrangement of leaves, flowers or floral organs in plants, a phenomenon called phyllotaxis, can not only be easily observed by anyone, but it is also the source of inspiration for scientists since the classical antiquity. [...] For instance, if leaves grow one by one, each at a constant angle from the previous one, the phyllotaxis is called distichous when the angle is 180° or spiral when the divergence angle is close to the golden angle, about 137.5°. When two evenly spread organs are formed on a node, the phyllotaxis is decussate, and whorled when three or more organs arise simultaneously. Although phyllotactic patterns tend to be stable, they are affected by environmental factors and may change during the development of the plant. For instance, in the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana, the embryonic leaves and the two first vegetative leaves show a decussate pattern before switching to a spiral phyllotaxis for later vegetative leaves and flowers, and finally to a whorled pattern for floral organs"

Mine go from decussate (regular opposite) to whorled (3 leaves on same level), then switch to spiral (because they start alternating) and then revert to whorled when the internodes shortened at the end of the transition to flowering, and spiral again in the buds.

It's the first transition that matters, the rest is then inevitable.

"genes of the PLETHORA family have been shown to modulate these transitions by fine-tuning the mechanisms of polar transport of auxin, a key effector of organogenesis."

Further research shows the PLT1 and PL2 genes are responsible.

"The response to auxin signals may be mediated, at least in part, by the PLETHORA genes: PLT1 and PLT2."

The same genes are also responsible for root development. This raises two questions, can I spot the tris faster by looking at roots, and do the plethora family of genes follow mendels simple rules of inheritance.

I also ran into something called expansin, which combines with phyllotaxy leads to a load of additional info to go through. Theoretically it may be possible to create tri-whorled in a bottle...

The book The Molecular Life of Plants talk about what I mentioned in an earlier post, that the different than usual phyllotaxy is caused by a different interaction of cytokinin and auxin, as has been shows in a mutated gene in a maize variery that encodes a cytokinin signal transduction protein.

Possible influence of sulfur availability:
"Low sulfate levels also downregulate the genes involved in auxin biosynthesis and transport, and elevate the accumulation of PLT1 and PLT2. This study suggests that sulfate level affects the primary root elongation by regulating the endogenous auxin level and root stem cell niche maintenance."

Plastochron
The difference between the whorled and semi whorled/spiral may be all due to a plastochron difference. Cool word, plastochron, like a super villain. Plastochron is the time between leaf initiation. Plastochron is however regulated by different genes than phyllotaxy. I've had whorlers with a non-optimal plastochron as in one of the three starting a little later.

 

[Sativied]

With roughly 3 weeks to go I'm starting to lean more towards the nr 23, the swan, it fills up a little better than the AAO.

The following two are the ones I added last, to replace the ones in tubes that were male. They had less veg time in the tubes, but after an initial stretch caught up nicely.

Nr 19, seemingly the most frosty but that's also the only thing is has going.

Nr 20, this one's actually interesting because it has the size (tall) from the chunk, but the bud structure of the CH. Added last, transitioned to flowering last, but catching up fast.

Nr x... (no longer a candidate, not bad but not great either)

 

[Sativied]

I have 3 CHxCH tri-whorled of which 1 is definitely male. Pollinated P6-F2-20 with it but I think the second tri-whorled I found is better. It's still in veg. I topped it, the part below is barely an inch wide, and one of several branches that are /will be tri-whorled.

It has more frosty and smelly stems too. So far looks like a great candidate for whorled back cross line.

Not so sure about the 3rd, it seems to indica dom.

I got about 2-3 weeks to go on the current run. Race is still on, nr 22 swan and nr 20 are currently in the lead. I might run some seeds from both if there isn't a clear winner.

 

[Sativied]

Same plant as above. Looks like at least 5 of the 8 branches will be tri-whorled, maybe more/all, which makes it at least as strong whorled as the IH#5 from the IH F1.

Bit bleached from flash. Right side is the top of the left. Cloned about a week ago, still fully green and probably rooting by now.

I'm probably going to do a round of CHxCH, find as many (sativa-dom) whorlers as I can. It would serve several purposes, the tri-whorled CHxCH backcross line, a test run on soil that doesn't involve the F3 seeds (I got hundreds, maybe a thousand of CHxCH), and possibly work towards the F1 hybrid partner of the P-F4 or F5 (FlyJ probably isn't that far off with his prediction earlier). Additionally, I'd have some more variation in my jars...

So specifically, I think I will flower a bunch of the CHxCH females, looking for whorled of course, cross those with the above male and make him the recurrent parent for several back cross generations. If I pop CHxCH today, I should be able to flower them shortly after this run. The alternative is waiting for these to finish and pop P-F3 instead. That will cost me a few weeks, while the CHxCH needs only 8-9weeks. So at the cost of delaying the P-F3 run for about 5 weeks, I can do an entire run of CHxCH in between.

 

[Sativied]

Not so sure about the 3rd, it seems to indica dom.

Should have taken a closer look and update my opinion before posting that... she's quite the beauty... and... she's a she. :)

Shortest internodes I've seen in any of my crosses so far, grown under 3x18watt T8 but obviously has to share with other plants. It gets maybe 500lumen. As noticeable on the last pic, the trichs are clearly visible too.

Edit: removed pic of wrong plant... :confused: It's the one in this post:
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/breeding-for-whorls.63887/page-8#post-1339924

 

[Sativied]

Swan (nr22) pics:

Nr 20:

Late Night, fun for frost pics but yield is horrible, worse than the one last run.

 

[geologic]

Looks like you'd get cut--
pickin' off one of them leaves...

 

[Sativied]

nr 20:

Rest is a little further, about 1-2 weeks to go.

Although I could harvest mature seeds from the p6-F2 plants, I popped 38 of the CHxCH a couple of day ago so I'm going to do a round of that one before planting the P-F3. About half is up, I assume (after digging in a few) they will all pop.

Notice the twins in front, again, 4th pair I got from the CHxCH, of which two were certainly twins from the same seed and the other two likely too (but could be just me dropping two seeds in there).

These 38 are in addition to the 3 whorlers I got (2 male, 1 female). I'm hoping to find more than a few tri-whorled females in this batch.

 

[Calixylon]

did you hookup with any of the folks that grew loompas gear seems like couple of them got trifolates recently?

 

[Sativied]

All cannabis plants create "trifoliates" :) The second set of leaves and the last ones before the single -leaflet leaves in a bud are trifoliate, which refers having 3 leaflets/fingers/blades and is something different than "whorled phyllotaxy".

I have seen few that grew loompas gear and got plants with whorled phyllotaxy yes. Any particular reason for asking?

 

[Calixylon]

oops my bad meaant i say two growers who got a whorled phylotxy on there beans

 

[Calixylon]

Just wondering i knew one of the people who got loomps gear got a male whorly, and thought he or she ws growing it out to collect pollen.

 

[Calixylon]

is your goal to create a strain that is stablily a whorly similar to wally who breed for the ducksfoot, which is a steady trifoliate? right

 

[Sativied]

is your goal to create a strain that is stablily a whorly similar to wally who breed for the ducksfoot,

Pretty much yes. That's the ideal end situation though, I may have to settle for a high whorl ratio at some point.

The trait is not that extremely rare and people find them frequently in various strains. I've made 4 different crosses with a quad male of which 3 have whorlers. How many I don't know exact because I've grown out dozens not hundreds or thousands. It does seem to be most prevalent in the CHxCH, which is why I'm growing that one out now. I already made several test crosses and observed the inheritance so I have some idea how they inherit and what to look for in my crosses. Adding genes from plants from another breeder would only destabilize my lines, as in result in more variation to breed out besides breeding the whorling in. I basically already have the building blocks, just need to put them together, which is obviously easier said than done.

ducksfoot, which is a steady trifoliate? right

Trifoliate simply means that it has 3 leaflets. The second set of leaves on a cannabis plant are trifoliate. A steady trifoliate would basically have 3 leaflets on every leaf, never 5, 7, 9 or more. Normal cannabis leaves are "compound palmate" leaves. Compound means they are made of separate leaflets. Ducksfoot has "simple palmate leaf", which means the leaflets are not separate but webbed together.

 

[FlyinJStable]

building blocks, just need to put them together

You are, Thats for sure
BUILD BROTHER BUILD
FlyJ

 

[RandyPickles]

Pretty much yes. That's the ideal end situation though, I may have to settle for a high whorl ratio at some point.

The trait is not that extremely rare and people find them frequently in various strains. I've made 4 different crosses with a quad male of which 3 have whorlers. How many I don't know exact because I've grown out dozens not hundreds or thousands. It does seem to be most prevalent in the CHxCH, which is why I'm growing that one out now. I already made several test crosses and observed the inheritance so I have some idea how they inherit and what to look for in my crosses. Adding genes from plants from another breeder would only destabilize my lines, as in result in more variation to breed out besides breeding the whorling in. I basically already have the building blocks, just need to put them together, which is obviously easier said than done.

Trifoliate simply means that it has 3 leaflets. The second set of leaves on a cannabis plant are trifoliate. A steady trifoliate would basically have 3 leaflets on every leaf, never 5, 7, 9 or more. Normal cannabis leaves are "compound palmate" leaves. Compound means they are made of separate leaflets. Ducksfoot has "simple palmate leaf", which means the leaflets are not separate but webbed together.

This has been an amazingly satisfying and informative trip through an intelligent and creative breeding program! Many thanks and kudos and I hope this serves as an inspiration for more farmers to get creative and help continue to move this plant forward and expand our limited knowledge!

 

[geologic]

oops my bad meaant i say two growers who got a whorled phylotxy on there beans

I think Sativied coined the term "TriWhorl"/"TriWhorled"--
that works real good...