Breeding for whorls

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Sativied

Sativied

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Just took him out of the closet for some close ups and it is surely red:
Image


Image


Matches the strawberry leaves they had initially...

It's also the fastest and tallest male and the one with the least broad leaves.
 
3N1GM4

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Any idea where I could get some pollen in colorado, I am taking a trip soon to look at some houses for sale and I have a few flowers I would like to knock up...
 
FlyinJStable

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Red enough for me
Mr Sati Man!!!!
Good to stop by as always and see where your art is at .
That male is sweet Azz Colors
Just stopped by to say hi and say I finally have a few Real Sativa's in the Stable House of J
Snowhigh seeds ANd another well known Breeder Took care of the Group PTSD.
SO I am looking forward to showing ya what I been Doing with um.
I will update the New FlyJ thread later.
Here is a Pic of the Black Mamba Its Vietnam Black x Black Congolese 14-16 week Lady
3 29 2016 UD 5

As always its a Pleasure to read your thread
Peace FlyJ
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Sounds really good FlyJ! That's going to be some high... Looks beautiful already, I look forward to see it in flower.

Haven't been this excited about a cannabis plant for a long time, leaves are getting red-ish too, bottom and top too.
Redmale5


I'm going to set up a separate space for him and flower longer than usual. As you can see on the top half of the pic he's developing trichs on the leaves and I want to see if perhaps any red... Should be able to get some good pics from my cheap microscope.

1421764812 wijnballen 1a


The green male is developing some hints of red on the balls too but there is so far an obvious link between the amount of color on petioles and on the flowers. If that holds true for the females as well, then my favorite female is going to be very colorful as well.


(ICExCH) x Amnesia White still going and clearly starting to take after the AW in terms of flower structure, continues to put out new clusters of just a few pistils but swell up dense and hard. Still green and nanner free despite ongoing abuse. If I didn't have enough going on already I'd try to reveg the bottom and awake her 17 siblings from seed.
Egaw7
 
hiiipower

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OMG @Sativied!!!! That is one absolutely beautiful red male. Holy *************. That slapped a huge smile on my face when I saw that man, thanks. Amazing
The site hasn't been alerting me on this thread so I've honestly not looked for about a month now and wow, what a treat to go through a few pages on here.
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Thanks man. From the three males 1 is nearly green, 1 is more pink and less intense, so I feel lucky the third is exactly what I was looking for.

I mentioned earlier the stipules were unusually large but look at those things:
Hugestipules


Females are clearly transitioning slower but can't say I mind cause that will line them up better with the Silver haze.

I can't stop smelling my fingers... just rubbed the Panama plant's stems... It's lime-floral and very distinct already. It's the feminized version but will pollinate her with pck, sh, (and ot haze perhaps later) regardless and pop some on the side this year. I got a spicy-lemonish SH male that I think will match well.

Panama, 4 main tops, two smaller ones below to pollinate :)
Panamaveg
 
Sativied

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Dark left top and bottom corner is PCK, center and lower right is Silver Haze, and top right is part of the stretchy Panama.
Groupshotmix


Female with the most purple petioles is still green:
Favfemale2


But, 2 of the other females are getting colorful already:
Redfemale

Pinkpistil

Red stipules:
Redfemale2


And the male...
Redmaledeeptop
Checked with color picker in photoshop and it's as far from blue as red can be. Leaves not dark from pic or shadow but are very dark red, almost black.

Redmaledeep

Check out the huge balls behind the stem... actually those are rather normal size, the rest is still very small.

So, looks like I will be able to do PCK red x SH and SH x PCK red (as in use a male and female from both), and determine at the end which I will use. I will more than likely cross it back to the red PCK male either way. And of course some PCKxPCK even though I don't plan on using those.
 
Sativied

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Couldn't see clearly enough with the hps on yesterday so not sure if red or purple but one of the females with the pink preflowers got the same intense color level as the red male. Overnight, like the male.

While wikipedia isn't always the best source, the specifically mention:

"Many science textbooks incompletely state that autumn leaf coloratiom (including red) is the result of breakdown of green chlorophyll, which unmasks the already-present orange, yellow, and red pigments (carotenoids xanthophylls, and anthocyanins, respectively). While this is indeed the case for the carotenoids and xanthophylls (orange and yellow pigments), anthocyanins are not synthesized until the plant has begun breaking down the chlorophyll"

That last part is clearly not true for these red cannabis plants. There's some correlation but it's put too simple. As was obvious with some at seedling stage already, the new leaves show reddish in the center when it still needs to build up chlorophyll to get green. At first green wins, but once it is green (and the pck gets really dark green genetically), the production of red continues and increase to an amount where it starts to show again. The dark green + red makes the dark red-black leaves.

It seems, depending on the amount anthocyanins produced the red is always there (and not just until after cholorophyll breakdown). This shows most or earliest in the parts with the least chlorophyll, like flowers, petioles and appearantly stipules. However, chlorophyll is constantly refreshed too, so maybe that breakdown should not be interpreted as chlorosis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chl..._absorbance_of_anthocyanins_with_chlorophylls
Read in a led spectra study last week that photosynthesis efficiency in rose cultivars with red leaves can be 30% higher than in green cultivars.

Pckmalea red2


Pckfema red


Pckfema red2

:D

So, everything is going excellent so far, except for one thing... the PCK and SH are both a pita to clone. 2 out of 12 cuttings rooted... I put a couple in soil just in case the ones in rockwool fail again. The downside of the columnar structure of the PCK is that despite the plants being tall they have small and short skinny branches. SH topped and little branching, so had to chop up large branches yesterday for a new attempt.

Silver haze female, smells delicious
Female2


I will have some additional space starting next week, not enough for a complete grow but will be able to put males in a separate building and flower out longer. Just a few days too late as the pck red male is already dropping pollen.
 
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Sativied

Sativied

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"For the vegetable crops the photosynthesis spectra are very similar to the generalised photosynthesis spectrum. Red light is most efficient for leaf photosynthesis. Light from red (ca. 645nm) led’s was maximally 13% more efficient than High Pressure Sodium light. For reddish leaves of the rose cultivar Prestige, red led light was up to 35% more efficient. These figures apply to the momentary efficiency of leaf photosynthesis at 100 μmol.m-2.s-1 (PAR) and suggest that use of red light can lead to higher photosynthesis, especially for certain rose cultivars."


35% even...

I knew it would absorb more light, one of the main reason to go for color (higher cold and budrot resistance), not sure how they go from absorption spectrum to action spectrum and how it actually increases photosynthesis. This article shines some light on that:


I like the sounds of that 35% but green leaves are green because they absorb green least and reflect it more than others. At the same time that lack of absorption of green in a leaf allows it to pass through and reflect deeper inside the crop.

Anthocyanin is a socalled accessory pigment, like caretenoid is.
Image

Carotenoid results in an yellow/orange-red appearance because the rest is absorbed.

Malvidin is a common type of anthocyanin.
Image


As you can see it absorbs some blue, lots of green and some yellow light and results in a red appearance.

I hate to go against photobiologists and researchers of the uni of Wageningen but I don't see how red light could increase absorption by red pigments. Red plants should instead benefit from more green light and some blue, and most from full spectrum light. I believe their test results but I think there's another reason. Higher leaf temp for example, to an extend, resulst in higher net photosynthesis. Not 35% though...

http://baynature.org/article/photosynthesis-in-leaves-that-arent-green/
In short, at high intensities the light spectrum becomes far less important. At low intensities there are percentage-wise, relatively, huge gains possible from using the right colors. I think there's a balance possible between the two. High intensity is like brute force.


Anyway, PCK females have full transitioned and the colorful ones are getting more intensely colored fast. Frosty too. Fresh red female flower pics tonight.
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Here's a great doc with hypotheses on how the red may work as a defense system, with good arguments for and against,
"Role of anthocyanin in plant defence"
http://research.haifa.ac.il/~biology/simcha/Publications/PIB17.pdf

I knew stipules are considered thorn mimics but appearantly red stipules makes them more scary for insects.

Also:
"Red anthocyanin pigments are now thought to be produced in the leaf as it dies [clearly not the case for all species] possibly to mask the yellow hue left when the chlorophyll is lost—yellow leaves appear to attract herbivores such as aphids. Optical masking of chlorophyll by anthocyanins reduces risk of photo-oxidative damage to leaf cells as they senesce, which otherwise may lower the efficiency of nutrient retrieval from senescing autumn leaves. "

It sure appears to be multifunctional. May be extra suitable (forgiving) for beginners. The silver haze is more vigorous in growth but the PCK appears much stronger.

and all these years I've been avoiding 'em because--
chlorophyll is green Heh...
Me too :) Never was much into color except for some autumn colors at the end. While there is still much to research about anthocyanin, from what I gather so far it does not reduce photosynthesis unless it's in "dim" conditions.

Initially I figured ideally I get colored bud but green leaves. However, the more light absorped, the darker the leaf. The darkest colored part of the leaves absorp more red light than the lighter colored calyxes and other parts that don't have as much chlorophyll to catch the red light. In other words, ideally, in theory, the leaves will get as dark as possible and the bud stays red/purple.

Both the calyxes and the stipules are mutated leaves, evolved over time into what they are (calyx, technically the bract, protects the ovule, the seed, and stipules protect the pre flower and axilary buds when young and vulnerable). Bracts (what we call calyxes, so the bud) can perform photosynthesis but in for example peas it's only 10% of what leaves do with the same light and surface. It's also where most trichomes are concentrated, which block and absorp and reflect some light too, making them even less efficient for photosynthesis. Same for sugar leaves. Trichomes on the bottom of the leaves is the key trait to identify cannabis from other plant species when you only have a portion of a leaf, like a fossilized leaf in a rock. I don't like the lack of frost on the top side in most ice/ch x ch plants but arguably not a bad thing.

Anyway, point is, the calyx/bract and stipules contain some chlorophyll but not a whole lot. Chlorophyll normally absorbs the red and the blue, so when it doesn't, more red and blue is reflected so it's logical they have more vivid color. The balance of the red and blue obviously results in red/purple/blue (anthocyanin means flower blue). It looks like the large fans will stay green at least for now.

The ph in the plant affects the color of the anthocyanin, which effectively means it changes what wavelengths of light it absorbs and reflects... I did find some research that showed the ph in the plant can be altered by adjusting the ph in the medium, but was cultivated in agar. Still not sure if I will have a clone of the color pck females... but I hope to run the purple one on hempy and see if I can get it to become reddish by running very low ph. I doubt it but easy enough to try. I could also run a red one on high ph and see if it becomes purple.
 
Og Gong

Og Gong

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Here's a great doc with hypotheses on how the red may work as a defense system, with good arguments for and against,
"Role of anthocyanin in plant defence"
http://research.haifa.ac.il/~biology/simcha/Publications/PIB17.pdf

I knew stipules are considered thorn mimics but appearantly red stipules makes them more scary for insects.

Also:
"Red anthocyanin pigments are now thought to be produced in the leaf as it dies [clearly not the case for all species] possibly to mask the yellow hue left when the chlorophyll is lost—yellow leaves appear to attract herbivores such as aphids. Optical masking of chlorophyll by anthocyanins reduces risk of photo-oxidative damage to leaf cells as they senesce, which otherwise may lower the efficiency of nutrient retrieval from senescing autumn leaves. "

It sure appears to be multifunctional. May be extra suitable (forgiving) for beginners. The silver haze is more vigorous in growth but the PCK appears much stronger.

Me too :) Never was much into color except for some autumn colors at the end. While there is still much to research about anthocyanin, from what I gather so far it does not reduce photosynthesis unless it's in "dim" conditions.

Initially I figured ideally I get colored bud but green leaves. However, the more light absorped, the darker the leaf. The darkest colored part of the leaves absorp more red light than the lighter colored calyxes and other parts that don't have as much chlorophyll to catch the red light. In other words, ideally, in theory, the leaves will get as dark as possible and the bud stays red/purple.

Both the calyxes and the stipules are mutated leaves, evolved over time into what they are (calyx, technically the bract, protects the ovule, the seed, and stipules protect the pre flower and axilary buds when young and vulnerable). Bracts (what we call calyxes, so the bud) can perform photosynthesis but in for example peas it's only 10% of what leaves do with the same light and surface. It's also where most trichomes are concentrated, which block and absorp and reflect some light too, making them even less efficient for photosynthesis. Same for sugar leaves. Trichomes on the bottom of the leaves is the key trait to identify cannabis from other plant species when you only have a portion of a leaf, like a fossilized leaf in a rock. I don't like the lack of frost on the top side in most ice/ch x ch plants but arguably not a bad thing.

Anyway, point is, the calyx/bract and stipules contain some chlorophyll but not a whole lot. Chlorophyll normally absorbs the red and the blue, so when it doesn't, more red and blue is reflected so it's logical they have more vivid color. The balance of the red and blue obviously results in red/purple/blue (anthocyanin means flower blue). It looks like the large fans will stay green at least for now.

The ph in the plant affects the color of the anthocyanin, which effectively means it changes what wavelengths of light it absorbs and reflects... I did find some research that showed the ph in the plant can be altered by adjusting the ph in the medium, but was cultivated in agar. Still not sure if I will have a clone of the color pck females... but I hope to run the purple one on hempy and see if I can get it to become reddish by running very low ph. I doubt it but easy enough to try. I could also run a red one on high ph and see if it becomes purple.

That is awesome man. I love your experiments Sativied! Im gonna have to find some PCK so I can join the fun. :)
 
Sativied

Sativied

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yea so they can make a "smaller " leaf an still get the same sugars?
Interesting question. The leaf surface of these broad leaf afghanicas is surely larger than for example the pure haze I got going, although those leaves are longer. I certainly want to breed those broad leaflets out. Slender leaflets, open leaves, allow for better penetration of the light which usually results in more branching and allows for more colas crammed together. Slender leaflet haze hybrids for example usually don't yield less and grow tall faster too. So, a different structure and different, imo better, spread of the light throughout the crop, but not necessarily less sugars (the product of photosynthesis) in total.

Reminds me of the plant I called "swan", started out with ugly broad leaves and ended up flowering with very slender leaflets. I'd settle for that. Open at the top half, with plenty of wide large fans at the bottom half.
 
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