Breeding for whorls

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3N1GM4

3N1GM4

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what are these leaf mutations where the leaves seem to be fused together known as?
DSC00015

its like two of the leaves have 3 points on one leaf
if you look close you can see preflowers, its an auto
 
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Looks a bit like what duckfoot mutation has with all blades/leaflets.
I don't know if fused leaflets on palmate compound leaves has a name in botany. Unless it creates them consistently it's usually not a genetic mutation. Esepcially with the second and third set of leaves it's not very uncommon. It then happens during development and isn't necessarily a mutation in the blueprint.

@Toaster79:
I've never grown or bred autos but the auto genes being recessive seems to be widely spread info. Could be many parrotting each other based on crossing pure autos with others, but for example it's on wiki too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoflowering_cannabis#Breeding

Crossing photo x auto should then be all photo. And then takes 3 generations to make all autos. F1 all photo, F2 25% auto, and two of those make all auto in F3. It's a good example of why recessive traits can be easier to breed for; they only show up when homozygous, and crossing two of them (or selfing one) will make all autos, true bred for that strain.

That is IF photo was homozygous for the dominant photo genes, which doesn't always has to be the case.

Breeding the auto genes out (and thus preventing the trait from showing up in later generations) is then harder than breeding out the auto trait in the first generation. Roughly half of that F2 (given a large population) would be photos but still carry the auto gene. If you cross two of those, you will get some autos in the resulting generation again. You would have to pick two of the 25% homozygous photos to breed out the auto, but they aren't phenotypically different from the heterozygous photos.

If the photo is not homozygous for the dominant photo genes, and auto is recessive, you would get roughly 50-50 photo-auto in the F1. With those percentages and a relatively small amount of plants the actual results can be very different.

Not all photogenes are necessarily exact duplicates even if they visibly perform the same function. It posssibly depends a lot on what you cross it with. For example, Afghanicas and indicas are more triggered by the photoperiod than an equatorial sativa that sort of auto flowers under its normal lightschedule (vegs and flowers on a day length of roughly 12 hours).

So your miles may vary, but the first and second generation will give enough insight. If auto is in your cross fully recessive, none of the F1 will be auto but will all carry the gene and you can simply pick the best plants for the next generation to create plants where those auto genes recombine.
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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Looks a bit like what duckfoot mutation has with all blades/leaflets.
I don't know if fused leaflets on palmate compound leaves has a name in botany. Unless it creates them consistently it's usually not a genetic mutation. Esepcially with the second and third set of leaves it's not very uncommon. It then happens during development and isn't necessarily a mutation in the blueprint.

@Toaster79:
I've never grown or bred autos but the auto genes being recessive seems to be widely spread info. Could be many parrotting each other based on crossing pure autos with others, but for example it's on wiki too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoflowering_cannabis#Breeding

Crossing photo x auto should then be all photo. And then takes 3 generations to make all autos. F1 all photo, F2 25% auto, and two of those make all auto in F3. It's a good example of why recessive traits can be easier to breed for; they only show up when homozygous, and crossing two of them (or selfing one) will make all autos, true bred for that strain.

That is IF photo was homozygous for the dominant photo genes, which doesn't always has to be the case.

Breeding the auto genes out (and thus preventing the trait from showing up in later generations) is then harder than breeding out the auto trait in the first generation. Roughly half of that F2 (given a large population) would be photos but still carry the auto gene. If you cross two of those, you will get some autos in the resulting generation again. You would have to pick two of the 25% homozygous photos to breed out the auto, but they aren't phenotypically different from the heterozygous photos.

If the photo is not homozygous for the dominant photo genes, and auto is recessive, you would get roughly 50-50 photo-auto in the F1. With those percentages and a relatively small amount of plants the actual results can be very different.

Not all photogenes are necessarily exact duplicates even if they visibly perform the same function. It posssibly depends a lot on what you cross it with. For example, Afghanicas and indicas are more triggered by the photoperiod than an equatorial sativa that sort of auto flowers under its normal lightschedule (vegs and flowers on a day length of roughly 12 hours).

So your miles may vary, but the first and second generation will give enough insight. If auto is in your cross fully recessive, none of the F1 will be auto but will all carry the gene and you can simply pick the best plants for the next generation to create plants where those auto genes recombine.

You are a bless to have around dear sir!

I'm actually looking to keep the auto traits and possibly create a line of my own that would be all auto. So basically, I pop the seeds I get (F1), keep the autoflowers, maybe even do an open pollination to keep the phenotypically variety. Then pop those F2's and do the same and finally F3's are all autos. And with F3's pick some of the best girl and give them some coloidal silver treatment to get autofems. Should be doable in 12 month window.
 
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@geologic : It's a bit like the calyx vs bract thing :D

Sativa vs indica is flawed. I used to say it's all Cannabis Sativa L. Which in a way is true, that's her name, but, it all originates from India, and Indica means "of India".

At icmag they often use WLD vs NLD, wide vs narrow leaves drug variety, but as I pointed out in that thread you recently tagged me in, about sativa vs indica, leaflet width alone doesn't dictate how indica or sativa or whatever-dom a plant is. So that doesn't work for me either.

First time I heard of Afghanica was about 20 years ago, I mentioned it in forums once or twice because of it's strong fuel smell, and recently found they actually have a page at wiki about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanica_(cannabis)
Not what I'm referring to, not sure when I started using it to group varieties...

So Indica means from India, Afghanica means thus from Afghanistan. An example of what I mean with afghanica is, however, the pakistan kush I have going as well. Short, very broad leaflets, thick stem, dark green, fast maturing and flowering. I referred to such pants as hash plants too. Though according to some kush is afghanica x indica...

Cervantes for example says there are 4 major variant, indica, sativa, afghanica, and ruderallis.

According to Hemp Diseases and Pests, by McPartland, Clarke, and Watson (Skunkman):
1. Cannabis sativa: over three meters (9ft) tall
2. Cannabis indica: one and a half to three meters (4-9ft) tall
3. Cannabis afghanica: under one and a half meters tall
4. Cannabis ruderalis: half a meter tall and autoflowering.

Robert clarke talks a bit about it too:

Transcript of the relevant portion:

Clarke: So people have to realize that taxonomy is a very fluid thing. And, of course, it’s valuable to name things because then we have a common system. And when you say you’re talking about cannabis sativa, I know you’re talking about the same plant that I am, not some other cannabis or some other drug plant or some other fiber plant. It’s all very valuable. But, we’ve ended up through sort of a process of elimination, we’ve ended up with calling the two different groups general classes of drug cannabis, it seems to me are either sativa or indica. Well, first of all, they’re all hybrids between two different groups, whatever you want to call them.

We ended up with sativas and indicas as the names because up until relatively recently most taxonomists have concurred that all variation of cannabis is part of one species, cannabis sativa. Then when Afghan cannabis came along that was markedly different, that was called indica. And basically to differentiate it from what already existed which was called sativa, and it was a drug variety and there were reasons to think that it was another species. That’s where the two species debate really began is when Afghan cannabis came on the scene, late ’70s. But before that people had only seen drug cannabis that came from India, no matter where on the planet it popped up, it had originated in India. And Afghan cannabis was limited just to Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan until the late ’70s.

Project CBD: And did it look substantially different, these two?

Clarke: It does look substantially different. It’s a different general growth habit. It’s shorter, more compact, broader leaflets –

Project CBD: The Afghani?

Clarke: The Afghan. And darker green color, shinier, and unique aromas. And it matured quite a bit earlier then the semi-tropical –

Project CBD: But they’re both drug plants in the sense that if you use them they get you high.

Clarke: Psychoactive drug plants. They both contain THC. The narrow-leaf drug varieties, what people call sativa. The true indicas (indica means from India), and what Lamarck named cannabis indica, that’s what he meant. He meant the narrow-leafed drug varieties from India. And they’re just entirely different from the Afghan varieties, which when they were brought into California, revolutionized the whole sensimilla industry: made plants that were higher yielding, easier to manipulate and manage because they were shorter, and they matured earlier.


So basically with afghanica I'm referring to what most probably consider to be a very indica dom plant. Or pure indica as I referred to the pck myself. An indica from afghanistan area and not just a wide leaflet plant.
 
geologic

geologic

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I'm confused by Clark's:

> "And basically to differentiate it from what already existed
> which was called sativa,
> and it was a drug variety
> and there were reasons to think that it was another species."

< sativas aren't a "drug variety"???

----------------------------------------

I always thought--
Cannabis sativa sativa
Cannabis sativa indica
Cannabis sativa ruderalis
[fast forward to now]
Cannabis sativa afganica
Cannabis sativa ???...
 
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So basically, I pop the seeds I get (F1), keep the autoflowers, maybe even do an open pollination to keep the phenotypically variety. Then pop those F2's and do the same and finally F3's are all autos. And with F3's pick some of the best girl and give them some coloidal silver treatment to get autofems. Should be doable in 12 month window.

When you pop the F1 seeds, if auto is recessive, you won't have any autos in that generation, there (with exceptions, flukes) shouldn't be any autos in F1 then. You can then pick the best two photos (or indeed open poll) to make an F2 where roughly 25% should be fully auto. You could then already use two of those F2 autos to create a fem version and get all fem autos in the F3. Probably better to make reg auto F3 to and confirm if they really are all auto before making the fem version but by itself, 2 real female autos from F2 can make all auto fem. Either way, 12 month seems doable.

I posted it in a different format some time ago here:
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-50-or-more-strains.67862/page-2#post-1362932
 
geologic

geologic

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Very cool,
and I can understand our subject parts--
Cannabis sativa colombia...

[tho I'd use colombianensis (or the appropriate Latin/Greek)...]
 
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The evergreen x AW now:
egaw3-jpg.586273

Besides the necrotic spots I think I can get all that yellow to turn green.

Yup, that worked out nicely, (ICExCH)xAW
Egaw4

Egaw5

Roots look too disgusting to post. Smells better now though.

I've stress tested plants before, especially the Late Night, but this is by far the most abused plant I've grown. It's not on a light schedule, I put it in, and remove it from the closet (which is still on 18/6) at various times and forgot it a few times. Stuffed in corners, against walls. I've given it mostly the drain of some silver haze plants I got in hempy. Sometimes just water. Also started using some organic P boost.

I can see the AW in it too. Those who followed that grow probably remember it kept adding layers on layers. Adding to the flower time but this one is developing similarly. Leaves are more like the ICExCH parent, same length.

Anyway, still no nanners. Neither did the parents, but both have sisters that did.

The ICExCH parent was one of the few plants in that cross that smelled and tasted like CH, but slightly sweeter. Better than many CHxCH plants actually. It appears to have that sweetness combined with the afghani-dom amnesia mixed. Not as distinct as the pine in my P cross but I'm starting to get hopes I can use the other 17 seeds I got from this cross to make something really decent. It should be faster than the AW, yield no less, and still be suitable for long colas.
 
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PCK Female:
F4veg2


Males are still in small pots (less than a gallon), females in 3.5 roughly. One of the males is significant larger than the others, almost as large as the females.
Largemale


They can clearly deal well with cold so far, but... there's the obvious flip side... they don't seem to be handling the heat very well. The newest leaves of the plants straight under the lamp start out wrinkled. Works itself out fine in a day or two and I could simply lower some plants (they are all raised, so I can lower the tallest) but couldn't help noticing.

Still in veg, still under 400watt. Currently all only on water. When I had them in the small pots I filled those only for about 75%. Females go into larger pots, males go back in their own pot but with a fresh layer of all mix soil at the bottom and a little on top. They've been on only water since potting up.

Still in veg because I haven't sexed all the Silver Haze yet. Will post a bunch of pics later separately but they difference in structure is already very obvious. The PCK (pure indica/afghanica... err.. ) should flower faster, 7-8 weeks. SH should take 9-11. That difference gives many the impression growing fast flowering strains will result in bud faster, but, I think I could fill a closet with colas and harvest faster with the SH than PCK if veg time is included. The SH will veg more during 10-14 days transition than the PCK in 3-4 weeks veg. Could be wrong... I know how the SH will flower, don't know how the PCK will transition but unlike the SH it surely won't double or even triple in size.

Female (topped)
F1


This one appears to be female too:
F2


Besides the main goals (colored bud, matching hazy taste, bud rot resistance) and the typical ones (frosty, good yield, slender leaflets, fast maturing and flowering etc) I will be looking out for SH-dom plants with PCK dark leaves in the cross.

The pck clearly has stronger apical dominance, putting most of its energy in the main stem, the terminal. Good for SoG, but I rather have them short and bushy than columnar.
 
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Going to take a few more weeks before it gets interesting, but look forward to seeing flowers. Still under 400w, going to change that one of these days...

PCK female
Largefemale


Spiralphyllo2

^^Spirals above

Straight up regular phyllotaxy:
Regularphyllo

The columnar structure makes the difference even more obvious. Even some of the soil is still in direct light.

I got two OT haze plants with one of the leaves in the second set having 5 leaflets already.
5fingers
 
homebrew420

homebrew420

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So has there been any success. Sorry if that comes off rude. I am curious as to how many you see in a seed run? are the yields better than the opposite,alternate standard? I know you have been working this for a HOT min here. Wishing the best for you.

Peace
 
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I do that frequently, come across as rude that is, I heard it's called dutch directness. No, I appreciate the interest.

It's hard to compare the yield of plants as it basically would require two plants that are genetically very similar except for the whorl trait, which would have to be fairly stable too (basically whorl at the same time/node/amount). However, I have had plants with 5-6 colas where the whorled (and even fasciated) colas were noticeably bigger, even in length. Quad fatter than tri too. Enough additional nuggets to make up for them individually being slightly smaller.

Just an example but it's quite consistent:
Fasccola

Left is a tri-quad-penta-whorled branch that ended up becoming fasciated. Two normal/late whorlers next to it, one tri whorled cola and a regular again. Was spread out (branches tied down) so it's not like the larger blocked the smaller. It was obvious with the main colas of non-topped plants in this thread too, but again, they are not stable enough to really conclude that is from the whorling or just a heavy yielding pheno.

It depends also on how you measure yield. Yield from whorling but otherwise similar plants is higher. I've long kept that open but it's undeniable. I haven't had the opportunity to grow one outdoors, but they I have very little doubt they won't noticeably get larger (as in more branches, leaves, and actually a tad larger) in a season and thus yield more per plant.

Indoor, it can" depending on grow style too, increase yield per year (less veg time per cycle to fill space with a certain amount of colas hence).

Indoor, per sqft or meter for example, per cola if you wish, it depends on a few other factors. To be specific, the whorlers that alternate into spiral with at least some node distance between each future nugget (axillary bud) in let's say the bottom 2/3rd of a cola, yield the best. Some of the whorlers that have 3 axillary buds at the same level total up to roughly the same weight of 2 on a regular. It seems the stem sort of forms a bottleneck. Of course when used for clones they will alternate regardless but the entire plant needs to be able to support the additional growth and yield potential.

So by default, no, wp does not directly equate to yielding more. Everything else being equal and in the right plant/variety, whorled plants can be used to produce more yield and faster in a given space, yes.

I do only seed runs. The number of whorlers is easiest summed up as "roughly half". With total plant count including 16, 36, and 50+. Apparently less in the cross I called P, but still at least 1 out of 4. Zero in a chuck with a super stretchy hemp like sativa, most in an aghani dom ICE cross.

The main obstacle at the moment is that the crosses that produce most whorlers are not good enough in other aspects. It has some ok phenos but not something I'd normally smoke. I can find whorlers easy enough in my crosses to do a large selection and use the best in other aspects but the bud still wouldn't be something I would recommend growing. That's also why I don't keep whorl clones, I can grow whorlers from seed and they won't be any worse. The whorl trait alone just isn't enough. The ideal result come down to a normally somewhat stretchy variety that fills up better, basically shorter node spacing from having more (alternating) nodes on the same length, besides the better phyllotaxy for intercepting light.

I spent a lot of time on determining which of the 3 outcrosses and the inbreed line with the CH quad was best while "best" is not among them. Half the P cross is great actually, but I selected against wp in that one and took it to F4 before I started over from F1. I decided to spend this year on creating something (bud rot resistant haze hybrid) I actually enjoy smoking and then cross the wp into that. With possible exceptions of some test chucks I won't be growing many if any whorlers for a while.
 
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Sideshot


PCK, way taller than I would normally grow it, popped the SH later than the PCK and wanted both mature so I should be able do SH x PCK and PCK x SH. So it won't matter if I find color in male(s) or female(s).

Lovely green on this one:
Greenie


Favfemale


The difference between the green of these PCK and the Silver Haze is not that large when I look at the actual plants, but on photos the difference is much larger. The OT haze is very light too.

Othazeseedling

Trying to keep them as short as possible. Tallest is nearly twice the size of the shortest, same node count.
Othazeseedlingshort


Favorite SH female at the moment:
Female
 
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I took them out of the closet yesterday, nothing out of the ordinary then... I just opened the closet to take some pics and...

We have ignition...
Redmale

Redmale2

Red enough for me :D

Another male is green, and another one has some color but far less:
Lesredpck
 
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