Breeding talk for everyone to understand

[Grownsince95]

I will add that breeding for market trends, thats why we have so many F1 lines and very few IBL lines anymore.

Right?!!! Take the same female and male clone and just make seeds! The big agro guys have been doing it forever with corn, wheat etc and making big $$$
It will happen with cannabis the same way as It did with Andy boy broccoli rabe...want that yield and PM resistance? Have to buy this F1 variety...blah blah..

 

[Grownsince95]

I will add that breeding for market trends, thats why we have so many F1 lines and very few IBL lines anymore.

This is their business model as we speak...history repeating

 

[Kanzeon]

I will add that breeding for market trends, thats why we have so many F1 lines and very few IBL lines anymore.

EXACTLY. There are so many people trying to breed for fads that have been over for a while. I'm very much looking forward to things evolving past the "interbred dessert named strains in the pursuit of high THC over all else" paradigm.

I can't say that anything I'm making will be "better" than anything else. But the genes will be unique and of solid provenance, so keepers will hypothetically appear. It's just on me to be a decent enough grower to identify and breed with them.

What are your thoughts on crossing both sets of parental genetics (ie. (NL5 x Haze) x (Haze x NL5) when starting an IBL to broaden the number of phenos to hunt through?

 

[Grownsince95]

EXACTLY. There are so many people trying to breed for fads that have been over for a while. I'm very much looking forward to things evolving past the "interbred dessert named strains in the pursuit of high THC over all else" paradigm.

I can't say that anything I'm making will be "better" than anything else. But the genes will be unique and of solid provenance, so keepers will hypothetically appear. It's just on me to be a decent enough grower to identify and breed with them.

What are your thoughts on crossing both sets of parental genetics (ie. (NL5 x Haze) x (Haze x NL5) when starting an IBL to broaden the number of phenos to hunt through?

You'd basically just be recreating a field full of plants from the same parents...NL5 x Haze x Haze x NL5 is like a hillside full of plants pollinating without outside influences. You are still getting an IBL mixing dads and moms like that...right? Idk

 

[Grownsince95]

Who opened this damn rabbit hole of a thread anyway? ugh...

 

[Chad.Westport]

EXACTLY. There are so many people trying to breed for fads that have been over for a while. I'm very much looking forward to things evolving past the "interbred dessert named strains in the pursuit of high THC over all else" paradigm.

I can't say that anything I'm making will be "better" than anything else. But the genes will be unique and of solid provenance, so keepers will hypothetically appear. It's just on me to be a decent enough grower to identify and breed with them.

What are your thoughts on crossing both sets of parental genetics (ie. (NL5 x Haze) x (Haze x NL5) when starting an IBL to broaden the number of phenos to hunt through?

The first paragraph cracked me up. I've literally had a large grower in the legal market tell me "if I put a dessert name on it, it will sell twice as fast". Someone is to blame, but it might be the uneducated consumer..... no... it's the growers too, but profit margins are tight in legal markets, gotta move that stuff.

Crossing classics, that is something I am currently underway with. I think that you have to consider lineage of any strain in deciding what to cross. Ideally you have parents from both ends of the spectrums, a sativa and an indica and you'll get more potentials but also increased vigor than two closely related indicas.... so I have read. But if you have a specific goal and trait in mind, then you need to start with plants that can reasonably fit that goal.

I wanted to go back as far as I could get my hands on from seed banks that are older than many legal Cannabis consumers. So I have an Afghani to represent a root of indica and a skunk #1, which does come from an afghani but also landrace sativa. The Skunk #1 does have afghani in it, so I'm hoping that those traits will stand apart from the uniquely Skunk traits. This is for fun, just an experiment to see what happens, if it produces very homozygous plants or if the variation is wide. Which it shouldn't be very wide because I'm going as close to the base of the family tree as I can, at least, thats my hypothesis. Those two strains are the root of so many of todays strains.... shootout, its like the OG cookies, it got mixed with everything. lol

Have you tried something like that before? What were the results?

 

[Kanzeon]

You'd basically just be recreating a field full of plants from the same parents...NL5 x Haze x Haze x NL5 is like a hillside full of plants pollinating without outside influences. You are still getting an IBL mixing dads and moms like that...right? Idk

That's what I've been thinking. It just takes an extra generation for selection since the IBL technically starts at F3. Instead of a branched tree, the genetics become more of a vertical helix once the keepers have been selected and interbred. I'm thinking that it might end up decreasing genetic drift of the final strain, but it's just a hunch.

 

[Chad.Westport]

Then again, one of my favorite strains to smoke and one that I have worked with is Jacks Cleaner 2 from Subcool / TGA (RIP). That is a cross of many old things - [Pluton x Lambsbread x Purple Haze x Northern Lights} x Jack Herer

 

[Kanzeon]

The first paragraph cracked me up. I've literally had a large grower in the legal market tell me "if I put a dessert name on it, it will sell twice as fast". Someone is to blame, but it might be the uneducated consumer..... no... it's the growers too, but profit margins are tight in legal markets, gotta move that stuff.

I think what's going to end up happening with cannabis is a divide like in the beer world. There will be the people that just want a Miller lite, and the people that will spend 40 bucks on a 4 pack of cherry coconut vanilla bourbon stout.

I wanted to go back as far as I could get my hands on from seed banks that are older than many legal Cannabis consumers. So I have an Afghani to represent a root of indica and a skunk #1, which does come from an afghani but also landrace sativa. The Skunk #1 does have afghani in it, so I'm hoping that those traits will stand apart from the uniquely Skunk traits. This is for fun, just an experiment to see what happens, if it produces very homozygous plants or if the variation is wide. Which it shouldn't be very wide because I'm going as close to the base of the family tree as I can, at least, thats my hypothesis. Those two strains are the root of so many of todays strains.... shootout, its like the OG cookies, it got mixed with everything. lol

Yeah, Skunk 1 is definitely a classic breeding strain, it and Chemdog are in everything haha.

Have you tried something like that before? What were the results?

I'm doing it with a couple of the IBL's that I'm making, now going into the F3 generation. The original pollenation was (Uzbekistan x (Panama Red x Nepal Highland) & [(Panama Red x Nepal Highland) x Uxbekistan], with multiple males selected from each strain to pollenate the selected females with. They'll be going into the first IBL generation with the seeds that are maturing now. I can't say empirically how diversity was affected, but there are a spectrum of ladies in this generation, leaning towards Nepalma and Uzi.

Currently doing the same thing with Nepalma/(Moonshine x Amnesia) and Herjuana/Black Afghani.

 

[Chad.Westport]

I'm doing it with a couple of the IBL's that I'm making, now going into the F3 generation. The original pollenation was (Uzbekistan x (Panama Red x Nepal Highland) & [(Panama Red x Nepal Highland) x Uxbekistan], with multiple males selected from each strain to pollenate the selected females with. They'll be going into the first IBL generation with the seeds that are maturing now. I can't say empirically how diversity was affected, but there are a spectrum of ladies in this generation, leaning towards Nepalma and Uzi.

Currently doing the same thing with Nepalma/(Moonshine x Amnesia) and Herjuana/Black Afghani.

That sounds fricken fascinating. Such old strains in there! Once you are happy with those as IBL, it will be interesting to see what effect they have when crossed to the hot shit from today and tomorrow.

 

[dire wolf]

Then again, one of my favorite strains to smoke and one that I have worked with is Jacks Cleaner 2 from Subcool / TGA (RIP). That is a cross of many old things - [Pluton x Lambsbread x Purple Haze x Northern Lights} x Jack Herer

Hey Chad , jacks cleaner was a big deal back around 20 years ago on the " overgrow" forums , I think bog did few crosses jc and it was a seed line really sought after , I think it was his " lifesaver " that started the jacks cleaner trend ....
I grew a bunch , nice plants
Funny to hear a cleaner fan , brings back memories , really didn't expect many people to talk about jc , how did you come to be familiar with jacks cleaner ?

 

[Chad.Westport]

Hey Chad , jacks cleaner was a big deal back around 20 years ago on the " overgrow" forums , I think bog did few crosses jc and it was a seed line really sought after , I think it was his " lifesaver " that started the jacks cleaner trend ....
I grew a bunch , nice plants
Funny to hear a cleaner fan , brings back memories , really didn't expect many people to talk about jc , how did you come to be familiar with jacks cleaner ?

I have a med card and in the old med system in this state, you could buy seeds and clones at a medical dispensary. It was one of the few states you could, so TGA had a good presence in the stores. I think a lot of that had to do with the efforts of Jinxproof, who also did a few releases with TGA but now does his own Jinxproof genetics. The Jacks Cleaner 2 was the first clone I ever bought from a dispensary, it was so lemon and its effects worked really well with me. When I saw the seeds in the shop, I had to grab some. Got that one as well as the Agent Orange. Got testers from Jinxproof called Go Time. There are no more medical dispensaries, they have all turned into Adult use stores and they don't carry seeds anymore.

 

[dire wolf]

I have a med card and in the old med system in this state, you could buy seeds and clones at a medical dispensary. It was one of the few states you could, so TGA had a good presence in the stores. I think a lot of that had to do with the efforts of Jinxproof, who also did a few releases with TGA but now does his own Jinxproof genetics. The Jacks Cleaner 2 was the first clone I ever bought from a dispensary, it was so lemon and its effects worked really well with me. When I saw the seeds in the shop, I had to grab some. Got that one as well as the Agent Orange. Got testers from Jinxproof called Go Time. There are no more medical dispensaries, they have all turned into Adult use stores and they don't carry seeds anymore.

Cool story !
If I remember , bogs seeds did the jacks and blueberry , called " lifesaver "

 

[Snaggleroots]

So why is it not considered an ibl until f3? , interbreeding anything along a line is inbreeding.

 

[growsince79]

I think what's going to end up happening with cannabis is a divide like in the beer world. There will be the people that just want a Miller lite, and the people that will spend 40 bucks on a 4 pack of cherry coconut vanilla bourbon stout.



Yeah, Skunk 1 is definitely a classic breeding strain, it and Chemdog are in everything haha.



I'm doing it with a couple of the IBL's that I'm making, now going into the F3 generation. The original pollenation was (Uzbekistan x (Panama Red x Nepal Highland) & [(Panama Red x Nepal Highland) x Uxbekistan], with multiple males selected from each strain to pollenate the selected females with. They'll be going into the first IBL generation with the seeds that are maturing now. I can't say empirically how diversity was affected, but there are a spectrum of ladies in this generation, leaning towards Nepalma and Uzi.

Currently doing the same thing with Nepalma/(Moonshine x Amnesia) and Herjuana/Black Afghani.

That's awesome man. I have pure Colombian (not the fake seed company colombian) I want to find the a pure Afgahni male to breed to.

 

[Kanzeon]

So why is it not considered an ibl until f3? , interbreeding anything along a line is inbreeding.

Because I'm not technically setting the genetics of the IBL until F3 if I'm taking seeds from two different females to make the strain.

If I take a Haze line and an NL5 line and cross a male of each to a female of each:

The first generation is then (NL5 x Haze) and (Haze x NL5).

The second generation could be mothered by either strain, so saying that it's an IBL at this point is inaccurate. It's parallel sets of genetics, not one line because of the two mothers they're taken from.

The third generation of plants is the first one where those parallel sets of genetics are crossed to make an IBL. Because it's the first one where the parents are both definitely involved (all keeper males pollenated all keeper females), it's where the two lines make one.

 

[growsince79]

Because I'm not technically setting the genetics of the IBL until F3 if I'm taking seeds from two different females to make the strain.

If I take a Haze line and an NL5 line and cross a male of each to a female of each:

The first generation is then (NL5 x Haze) and (Haze x NL5).

The second generation could be mothered by either strain, so saying that it's an IBL at this point is inaccurate. It's parallel sets of genetics, not one line because of the two mothers they're taken from.

The third generation of plants is the first one where those parallel sets of genetics are crossed to make an IBL. Because it's the first one where the parents are both definitely involved (all keeper males pollenated all keeper females), it's where the two lines make one.

At what generation will it be stable true breeding?

 

[Kanzeon]

At what generation will it be stable true breeding?

We'll see! It would depend on the definition of true breeding. To change alleles from heterozygous to homozygous requires selfing, which I'm not really looking to do yet.

 

[Kanzeon]

That's awesome man. I have pure Colombian (not the fake seed company colombian) I want to find the a pure Afgahni male to breed to.

Look at Real Seed Co! They've got all kinds of legit landraces.

Or just PM me sometime next year. I'll be hunting a few Afghani lines starting around January.

 

[Snaggleroots]

Ok, so what about siblings from more interbred parents. If I take ibl X ibl then interbreed siblings based on likeness would you be uping the frequency to a ratio that may be considered interbred?