Cali water shortage, What`s at stake for MMJ ?

[Seamaiden]

LMAO! You and my dad.

 

[geologic]

You know that white residue that would form from water on an un-dried spoon,
that's how they make the stuff:
big ol' spoon the size of that meteor crater in Arizona;
fill it up with water, let it dry;
scrape-up the dehydrated water with bulldozers--
and package it...

 

[markscastle]

Used to have lime/calcium build up in the water in the valley from years of farming. Causes gull and blatter stones! We had to filter the drinking water and every few years we had to clean out the water pipes so we wouldn`t have them getting blocked. And that was city water, well water was even harder!

 

[fishwhistle]

I just got a post in my news feed, the Upper San Joaquin is basically run dry. Apparently the water agency down there has sent out a notice to all the pre-1914 folks, aka the grandfathered people, telling them they have to stop drawing. Oh! (we'll whine for them) But we're grandfathered in!!

Ah, but the water's gone.

Like I been sayin'...

Not even 2 weeks ago we were fishing the upper middle fork of the san joaquin and catching trout,lol,im not saying theres not a drought but i AM saying it was flowing very well and absolutely not dried up like this article implies.In the eastern sierra where i was there was alot of water flowing probably from thunderstorm activity and snow melt combined,I noticed parker lake way down due to minimum court ordered flows into mono and crowley was way down also,not much snowpack if any in alot of places that usually have some.

 

[50YardLine]

I didn't say they're running rivers dry, I said they're running surface waters that had previously run year-round dry. And we've got at *least* one poster here who not only confirms that, but who has stated clearly that he participates in it.

Yes, there are rivers that are dry that were once year round. We are in a drought. Pot farmers have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DROUGHT. PERIOD! It's the weather, and after this season when we have a wet winter, all this fear porn you have been posting will be irreverent once again.

I will say it again, and please somebody do the math if they don't want to sound like Chicken Little. How many acre feet of water does these rivers that are supposedly dried up because of farmers have? Just answer me that fact. Then we will divide that number by the estimated amount of growers, IN THE ENTIRE STATE, and find out of much each grower would have to use. Anybody care to do some math? Or are we just using our feelings?

Multiple tributaries of the Eel river such as Outlet Creek, Salmon Creek,

Eel River -

Average flow of the Eel River varies widely due to its location, which places it more or less directly in the path of Pineapple Express-type winter storms. Wet season flows can be enormous, while the summer and early autumn provide only minimal precipitation, if any, allowing the sometimes mighty river to slow to a trickle. At the mouth, the Eel River produces an estimated annual runoff of 6.9 million acre feet (8.5 km3) per year, or about 9,500 cu ft/s (270 m3/s).[4] The Eel's maximum recorded flow of 936,000 cu ft/s (26,500 m3/s) on December 23, 1964 was the largest peak discharge of any California river in recorded history, and one of the largest peaks recorded in the world relative to the size of its drainage basin. In contrast, during the dry months of July through September, the river achieves nearly zero flow.[4]

The lowermost United States Geological Survey (USGS) streamgage on the Eel where flow volume is measured is at Scotia, where an annual mean of 7,309 cubic feet per second (207.0 m3/s), or 5.3 million acre feet (6.5 km3) per year, was recorded between 1910 and 2012. This station measures runoff from an area of 3,113 square miles (8,060 km2), or 85 percent of the basin; however it does not include the flow of the Van Duzen River, which joins several miles downstream.[7] Monthly average flows at Scotia range from 19,700 cu ft/s (560 m3/s) in January to 138 cu ft/s (3.9 m3/s) in September – a 143:1 difference. The annual means also experience huge variations, with a high of 12.5 million acre feet (15.4 km3), or 17,300 cu ft/s (490 m3/s), in 1983, and a low of 410,000 acre feet (0.51 km3), or 563 cu ft/s (15.9 m3/s), in 1977.[7]

Eel River monthly discharges at Scotia (cfs)[7]

Reduction in flow occurs in part due to deliberate water diversion from the Eel to the Russian River watershed by the Pacific Gas and Electric Company's Potter Valley Hydro-power Project, located to the south in Mendocino County, although the dams used by the project can provide additional baseflow to the Eel River during the dry season.



ARE WE REALLY SAYING POT FARMERS USED UP 7,309 CUBIC FEET A SECOND?????? OR 5.3 MILLION ACRE FEET ANUALLY? MATH AND FACTS ARE YOUR FRIEND, FEELINGS AND SPECULATION CAN PERVERT ANY ARGUMENT.

 

[50YardLine]

Also, notice that eel river ALWAYS RUNS DRY, OR AT LEAST SLOWS WAY DOWN!!!! EVERY YEAR, NOT JUST IN DROUGHT!!!!!! PAY ATTENTION!!!!!

I said it before and I will say it again. I could debunk all this crap all day long, but it doesn't do any good if you just go by how you feel. Facts are what people should base their opinions on, however this is a new age we live in.

 

[50YardLine]

So 87,000 people live along that river. That is the entire counties of areas that share that river. So lets say 10% of those people are growing pot. Way above the national average, but we are talking Mendo here. So each grower would have to use up 609 acre feet of water each. That doesn't sound like much.......

How much is an acre foot of water? 325 851.429 US gallons

Or a total amount of 198,443,520 gallons each grower

Does anybody think that is feasible? Math is a bitch.

 

[50YardLine]

Water in California
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Map of water storage and delivery facilities as well as major rivers and cities in the state of California
California’s interconnected water system serves over 30 million people and irrigates over 5,680,000 acres (2,300,000 ha) of farmland. As the world’s largest, most productive, and most controversial water system,[1][page needed] it manages over 40,000,000 acre feet (49 km3) of water per year.[2]

Water and water rights are among the state's divisive political issues. Lacking reliable dry season rainfall, water is limited in the most populous U.S. state. An ongoing debate is whether the state should increase the redistribution of water to its large agricultural and urban sectors, or increase conservation and preserve the natural ecosystems of the water sources.

So lets do the math with all the water that the "water storage and delivery facilities" controls in all of California. Remember, this doesn't count the 70% of water that goes back into the ocean.

They run 40,000,000 acre feet of water per year.

That's 13,034,057,160,000 gallons of water......Remember, that isn't including the 70% that returns to the ocean.

So, 38.8 million people live in California

13,034,057,160,000 / 38,800,000 = 335,929 gallons of water per person in California.

Now lets just for fun say we increase our water collection by 100%, which would still leave 40% of rain water going into the ocean. Almost a million gallons of water, per person, per year.

Math is a bitch.

 

[50YardLine]

Since we are having such fun. Lets see what it means to use 1,000,000 gallons a year per person.

That is 2,700 gallons a day.

114 gallons an hour

1.9 gallons an minute.

Now that is per person, in cali it's 2.91 people per household.

Could you imagine if your front sprinklers were running 24/7 at a flow rate of 2 gpm? Or if you live with 3 people 6gpm? We have way more water than they would like us to believe. I pulled all these facts off wiki, if anybody has different numbers I will punch those into the same equations.

 

[50YardLine]

Just for more fun......

So 87,000 people live along that river. That is the entire counties of areas that share that river. So lets say 10% of those people are growing pot. Way above the national average, but we are talking Mendo here. So each grower would have to use up 609 acre feet of water each. That doesn't sound like much.......

How much is an acre foot of water? 325 851.429 US gallons

Or a total amount of 198,443,520 gallons each grower

Does anybody think that is feasible? Math is a bitch.

No way 10% of the county lives on the river, and is pulling water from the river. But that is the numbers I used, so they are inflated.

Now lets look at what is means to use 198,443,520 gallons a year, per person in our equation.

So that's 543,680 gallons a day

22,653 gallons per hour

377 gallons per minute.

Remember, this is per person. No way, no how. IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! Growers can not use that much water, period. Also remember, this is taking 10% of the entire population in the entire counties that boarder this river. The real number of growers is probably more like 1%, and that would even be high. That means multiply those numbers I posted by ten. So it would be closer to 3770 gallons a minute per grower, every minute of the day, all year long, not just the growing season. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Blaze]

No one is claiming pot growers caused the drought, that is ridiculous. It is one of many contributing factors to the drought conditions worsening however. Despite the absurd amount of time you must have spent compiling the above math is is pretty obvious to me you have never actually seen a large scale grow op or the damage it can potentially do.

 

[Lyfespan]

im on RO and im barely using 200 gallons a day. and i am in no way making drought conditions any worse. im a warehouse grow

 

[markscastle]

Yes we are in a drought, but the water shortages we have are the fault of government management, not farmers, households or industry. We would have enough if it was managed right. But the government would rather put the blame on others than own up to there bad management. As long as we are fighting against each other, we don`t ask the tuff questions.

 

[Bulldog11]

No one is claiming pot growers caused the drought, that is ridiculous. It is one of many contributing factors to the drought conditions worsening however. Despite the absurd amount of time you must have spent compiling the above math is is pretty obvious to me you have never actually seen a large scale grow op or the damage it can potentially do.

Actually, several people claimed pot growers are responsible for rivers running dry, it has been said time and time again in this thread, including by you. I have seen some terrible large scale grows. They are horrible for the environment, and you must have no soul if your one of those people. However, they are not taking up even 1% of the water in our rivers, period. The math that 50yardline posted is sound, and also factual based. Everybody else is just speculating. Thank you @50YardLine for bringing some actual facts in which people can make an educated opinion on.

Here is just one example of the hysteria in blaming pot growers for the drought in this thread.

People are pulling so much water that previously year-round above-ground sources are going dry, and you think that's not a problem? You see the headlines that we're experiencing the 6th Great Mass Extinction on Earth? Shit like this doesn't help.

Here is an example from you, and 50yardline proved this wasn't because of pot growers at all. Read what wiki said about the ell river, and why it goes dry. NOTHING TO DO WITH GROWERS!!!!!! Since you wont go back, because you seem to have zero respect for facts, I will repost this.

"Reduction in flow occurs in part due to deliberate water diversion from the Eel to the Russian River watershed by the Pacific Gas and Electric Company's Potter ValleyHydro-power Project, located to the south in Mendocino County, although the dams used by the project can provide additional baseflow to the Eel River during the dry season."

Multiple tributaries of the Eel river such as Outlet Creek, Salmon Creek, and many others have been run completely dry last year and the year before that, and will likely run dry again this year. Twenty four tributaries of the South Fork of the Eel have now been run dry according the Fish and Game. This is a direct result of large scale illegal gardens drawing from the rivers.

Yes we are in a drought, but the water shortages we have are the fault of government management, not farmers, households or industry. We would have enough if it was managed right. But the government would rather put the blame on others than own up to there bad management. As long as we are fighting against each other, we don`t ask the tuff questions.

Yup.



If anybody has any numbers or facts to present, then I am all ears. However the only person posting facts is 50yardline. Those stories that were posted are from biases websites that scew the facts to fit an agenda. If we decide to debate this further, can I ask for facts only from here on out? Please? Also, no "gotcha" comments either. Like blaze claiming because 50yardline did math that there is no way possible he has seen a large scale grow. That is obvious negative speculation that has nothing to do with anything. Or claiming nobody has said the rivers are going dry because of pot farmer, yet you yourself has said it several times. If you want to state some numbers or facts about those grows, and why they are relevant to this conversation then please share. Otherwise, that is just really negative, IMO. Can we have a conversation with facts only, no speculation, and no put downs? I understand that some people are really emotional about the drought, however that doesn't make the person that doesn't agree with you an evil, stupid, uniformed person, even if they did some math.

 

[Seamaiden]

We can have a conversation, but once people start going all caps, I'm done. In fact, I'm about this close to just locking the thread because of it.

 

[Blaze]

A thread on how to reduce one's water usage and other tips on handling the drought for people that are concerned about this problem and are actually taking it seriously would be more useful.

 

[Dagwood]

You guys twist my words so badly. I am not saying the government caused less rain.......WTF? They do however limit the rain they collect. It may be in the name of conserving natural lands, and not building more dames. It could be not catching the 70% of rainfall that goes back into the ocean, However that is the core responsibility of government, is to provide these things for it's people. Every land on Earth will go through drought. The reason the human race is so successful is because we can overcome things like drought, with human innovation. Blaming pot growers for damming the rivers pretending they are using up all the water is a ridiculous argument. Name one river where pot growers are running the river dry? Then lets calculate the water flow of that river, and it's volume. We are talking billions of gallons of water, growers just don't use that much water, period. It's just another witch hunt.

Actually I wasn't referring to you specifically. But now I will.

Running a bunch of numbers looks good and precise. But they have to relate to reality to have any value. You go on about the 70% of river water that runs to the sea. That happens in flood stage. You can't catch it all. Water flow is neeed for navigation and to maintain estuary ecosystems that support fisheries. Dams are also used for flood control, and so reservoir water levels during storm season can't be kept at maximum. The number will be derived from averaging multiple years. Some years are wet. Some are dry. We're now in a series of dry years so that's the present reality. Water tables are lowered and need replenishing. This affects summer flow in the river tributaries where fish spawn. That's what the Fish and Game are concerned about. Those little streams up in the mountains that are gone dry are where steelhead and salmon spawn. And a bunch of pot growers running water lines from these creeks will greatly impact fish reproduction in a drought scenario. Al the big numbers you got from a chart to play with aren't really relevant here. What matters is how much water is available now to fill those small headwater tributaries to keep the fish going. There isn't enough.

The lowermost United States Geological Survey (USGS) streamgage on the Eel where flow volume is measured is at Scotia, where an annual mean of 7,309 cubic feet per second (207.0 m3/s), or 5.3 million acre feet (6.5 km3) per year, was recorded between 1910 and 2012.
........

Reduction in flow occurs in part due to deliberate water diversion from the Eel to the Russian River watershed by the Pacific Gas and Electric Company's Potter Valley Hydro-power Project, located to the south in Mendocino County, although the dams used by the project can provide additional baseflow to the Eel River during the dry season.

ARE WE REALLY SAYING POT FARMERS USED UP 7,309 CUBIC FEET A SECOND?????? OR 5.3 MILLION ACRE FEET ANUALLY? MATH AND FACTS ARE YOUR FRIEND, FEELINGS AND SPECULATION CAN PERVERT ANY ARGUMENT.

So you got your 7,309 cfs number from the average mean flow derived from 102 years of records. You can do lots of calculations with that number but they're meaningless to the present drought situation. And this number relates to the lower Eel River. Fish and Game is worried about the summer flow in upper tributaries where fish spawn. Lower Eel looks dry most summers too because the originally deep channel is filled with sediment because of past logging practices... water is flowing under the surface through the sediment though....but I digress. Your calculations may be accurate but they're irrelevant.

The Potter Valley Hydro-power project is not a new thing. The present withdrawal capacity was established in the 1920s and extended into summer months with dam construction in the 1950s. It greatly affects summer flow, but this has been the norm for many decades now. Something else, namely the present drought, pushed the situation to its current state. Potter Valley is a red herring.

 

[Blaze]

Al the big numbers you got from a chart to play with aren't really relevant here. What matters is how much water is available now to fill those small headwater tributaries to keep the fish going. There isn't enough.

Exactly! Well said Dagwood.

 

[derkaderk]

This thread makes my head hurt, lol....most people here are talking about 2 fundamentally different things., but thinking they are the same.


Streams and rivers have definitely been diverted, drawn-on, run dry by growers....this doesn't mean growers caused a drought....this means growers diverted, drew-on, and ran dry streams and creeks....this is subsidiary to the larger fact.....we are in drought, and aren't doing enough to be decent humans.

Weather causes droughts, we know this....lack of human innovation, intervention, complacency, and greed are why we are in the situation we are currently experiencing.

We've known for decades scientifically, and 10,000 years traditionally (spoken, passed down info.) that California is prone to long epic droughts....
You want to talk about stealing water....look no further than the best example ever to the south...,LA!

The entire valley was more of a savanna, and could not support the influx of people. So in the 1920's we made a pipeline to bring water to the valley.....and suddenly it was the freaking tropics(just being dramatic)....but honestly our area in SoCal was not meant for lush green lawns and millions of people.

What is my point?

Human condition...period. We constantly battle between "what is good for me," and, "what is the collective good."

We will continue on in this manner until we are wiped out, or we will evolve again beyond the conflicts of the human condition to live in balance with ouselves and our surroundings.

 

[Bulldog11]

So, anybody interested in how the reservoirs are doing? They are now considering letting water out of Folsom......1000 year drought fixed in 4 months? Yup. So you must assume the reservoir is close to full right? Nope, 57% full and they start letting water out...................... Anybody seeing a pattern yet? Tell the people the worst drought in 1000 years, up charge for water. Water falls and fills reservoirs, let water out so they can continue to up charge? Seems like my earlier hypothesis is coming true?

I know people had a hard time with the numbers I was posting earlier in the thread, however, this news story will tell it all for those of you who can't find logic in the math.