Curing - "organic" Vs "chemical Nutes"

[JWM2]

Ok guess we’ll discuss this here. Lol.

My theory is that soil provides things the plant needs outside of a typical nutrient line or regime. With hydroponics your plant is limited to what you feed it. The growing medium does not have microbes, bacteria, beneficial organisms (nematodes), some micro nutrients, etc present.

Hydroponic growing mediums are generally inert. Meaning they have no nutritional value at all. They are there more as a structure for the roots to hold on to in order for the plant to grow and to retain some of the nutrients that are imparted through feeding.

In soil you have lots of micro life that takes place and breaks down nutrients and delivers these in a slower more controlled manner. In hydroponics you have complete control over their nutrient uptake so the grower has more on their plate. In soil these micro ecosystems have evolved over millions of years to be efficient at their task and to support life in the rhyzosphere as best as possible.

Each growing method has its pros and cons and each method when done correctly can produce fantastic results. It’s just a little easier to have some help in achieving those results and with hydro there simply is no safety net in place. That’s why things can go horribly wrong in such a short amount of time in hydroponics. But done correctly and you can end up with great quality end product that is reproducible on any scale. It’s much harder to scale up soil and organic growing due to the resources involved and variables involved within it.

Imo it’s been an apples to oranges comparison in that good quality organic product is often compared to horribly grown hydroponics. It takes a lot of time to dial any system in and it’s easy to discount one method over the other. Each has merits and disadvantages.

But properly grown hydroponics can rival well grown organics in terms of quality. It’s really quantity, scalability and sustainability where hydroponics really shines.

However I have always been a soil grower so my opinion may be skewed.

 

[Jack og]

Double edged sword of a question!
Well curing maybe the same but the methods leading up to harvest is more of an area to discuss :
Organic soils
; flush is not needed. Simply finish of flowering and harvest/ dry, slower is better

Salt fertilizer or nutrient:;
This is where a grower needs to understand his/her plants and proactively flush to rid the excess salts from system that will ultimately determine the taste and smoke profile of the end product. Again slow dry and Cure.
I’ve found a huge diff in taste/ smell and bag appeal to both types of grows, and add growing factors such as, indoor / outdoor and greenhouses.
What I like to smoke? Indoors, what I grow? Greenhouses
The happy medium I find is in organic grows outdoor, man the smoke it something else, but it doesn’t necessarily look as great as an indoor bud under intense lights and salt feeds.
Indoor with organic? Whoa that’s the holy grail smokes man! LLol
So again curing maybe the same but ultimately the prior plant life cycles are key to the end result

 

[JWM2]

And of course I was paraphrasing my answer. There’s volumes of information scattered all over regarding this topic. So I’m well aware that finer points were missed in my response. I just highlighted some of the more obvious and important factors.

Actually jack og is a great resource for this topic. I noticed his greenhouses use soil so I can only assume they have found a good way to scale up while keeping costs down. Especially in the west coast commercial sector. Any thoughts on this subject bro?

 

[Jack og]

And of course I was paraphrasing my answer. There’s volumes of information scattered all over regarding this topic. So I’m well aware that finer points were missed in my response. I just highlighted some of the more obvious and important factors.

Actually jack og is a great resource for this topic. I noticed his greenhouses use soil so I can only assume they have found a good way to scale up while keeping costs down. Especially in the west coast commercial sector. Any thoughts on this subject bro?

Coco perlite mix with very simple amendments of microbes/ beneficial fungal and we salt feed. Organic salts but nevertheless salts but being it’s almost like coco, we don’t need to flush, 2week before harvest we just go into water every only system . Great end products. Top shelf shit that gets a premium and cost wise cheaper then full on organic soil we started out with, super soils costs $300-400k a cycle at our capacity, this coco-perlite setup with nutes , $80-120k per 220k plant harvests . Water in both setups about same but in coco we are pure RO so we need to add cal mag in organic we were straight well water no cal mag needed. So each has its values based on end use

 

[JWM2]

Coco perlite mix with very simple amendments of microbes/ beneficial fungal and we salt feed. Organic salts but nevertheless salts but being it’s almost like coco, we don’t need to flush, 2week before harvest we just go into water every only system . Great end products. Top shelf shit that gets a premium and cost wise cheaper then full on organic soil we started out with, super soils costs $300-400k a cycle at our capacity, this coco-perlite setup with nutes , $80-120k per 220k plant harvests . Water in both setups about same but in coco we are pure RO so we need to add cal mag in organic we were straight well water no cal mag needed. So each has its values based on end use

Oh cool. Yeah on that scale costs are a very big concern. Very nice setup. That would probably be the way I’d go also if I was to ramp up a commercial farm to get the yield needed per sqft while maintaining quality and sustainability. Do you guys wash and reuse the coco coir? Just curious is all.

 

[Jack og]

Oh cool. Yeah on that scale costs are a very big concern. Very nice setup. That would probably be the way I’d go also if I was to ramp up a commercial farm to get the yield needed per sqft while maintaining quality and sustainability. Do you guys wash and reuse the coco coir? Just curious is all.

Yes and no about a 60% reuse and rest is composted to soil for mothers, we change our mother soils every 6-8 months and resue post amendments

 

[OldManRiver]

On the organics vs hydro taste question. I have been growing hydro since the late 70's. I recall selling some product to a young man, knowledgeable smoker, who went on and on about the 'chemical taste' of hydro weed, not being to stand up to 'this', my pot that he was smoking, which he was loving and paying $2400 a lb. for, in 1980 dollars. Unflushed, hydro weed. I just smiled and folded the money.

Literally no-one has ever singled out my hydro weed as being different tasting from any other weed. In 40 years. There is plenty of hydro weed in the legal stores here now. No-one can distinguish the taste. There is no discount for being hydro. No labeling. Because there is no need.

I have scientific reasons for believing there is no taste difference. I have consumer evidence. I have market evidence. I have my personal experience. And I have my opinion. ;-)

To the OP's question, cure hydro weed exactly as you would soil grown weed, because its exactly the same stuff. Slow and cool is what you want. I hang for a week until the stems get a bit crispy, trim into paper shopping bags, and store there until dry, stirring every other day. Usually three weeks total. You can jar from there, but I find that to be a waste of time, and too laborious for my needs. I just put it in ziplocs. YMMV

 

[JWM2]

On the organics vs hydro taste question. I have been growing hydro since the late 70's. I recall selling some product to a young man, knowledgeable smoker, who went on and on about the 'chemical taste' of hydro weed, not being to stand up to 'this', my pot that he was smoking, which he was loving and paying $2400 a lb. for, in 1980 dollars. Unflushed, hydro weed. I just smiled and folded the money.

Literally no-one has ever singled out my hydro weed as being different tasting from any other weed. In 40 years. There is plenty of hydro weed in the legal stores here now. No-one can distinguish the taste. There is no discount for being hydro. No labeling. Because there is no need.

I have scientific reasons for believing there is no taste difference. I have consumer evidence. I have market evidence. I have my personal experience. And I have my opinion. ;-)

To the OP's question, cure hydro weed exactly as you would soil grown weed, because its exactly the same stuff. Slow and cool is what you want. I hang for a week until the stems get a bit crispy, trim into paper shopping bags, and store there until dry, stirring every other day. Usually three weeks total. You can jar from there, but I find that to be a waste of time, and too laborious for my needs. I just put it in ziplocs. YMMV

That’s exactly my point about poorly grown hydro being compared or unfairly judged. Any pot that’s not grown well will taste like shit and vice versa.

I remember in the 80 and 90s (sorry not quite as old as some) when “homegrown” meant it was shitty weed. Usually leafy light green with a very chemical taste to it. In retrospect it was just poorly grown, dried, manicured and cured. But we thought it was because someone grew it at their home vs being grown in a commercial farm. Boy were we nieve.

Anyhow as I’ve said I’d take any cannabis grown well in any medium vs anything not grown well in any medium.

Hydro is great for a number of reasons and soil is great for a whole nother set of reasons. I do believe it’s better for new growers to start in soil and learn the plant before switching over to hydro but I don’t fault anyone for giving growing their own a shot no matter how they choose to do it. By growing your own you take control over what you consume and that’s more power to ya.

 

[RippedTorn]

Yes there's a major difference. In Kevin Jodreys words "chemical pot breaks down radically different than organic". If you dont know the difference, sorry. Synthetic bacteria poop cannot produce a natural product the way real bacteria poop can.

How to cure synthetically grown pot: use lots of silica so it doesn't turn to dust, flush with citric acid, use brovida, and sell it to casual smokers within 2 months for 100/oz.

How to cure biologically grown pot: grow in healthy soil, let the high Brix, high lipid high overall metabolite pot basically cure itself without thought or effort, watch bud get better and more valuable every day for 5 months straight, 70 an 8th to the right people.

 

[RippedTorn]

On the organics vs hydro taste question. I have been growing hydro since the late 70's.

I haven't been growing since the 70s. I was lazy, and selling other people's bud. Dozens if not hundreds of growers bud I've sold. Hydro moves slow. Period. And they always wanted 50% more for it. Your evidence is invalid if your customers didn't have a choice. Mine did.

But I'm over hating hydro, lots of stomach churning soil bud too these days,when that used to be the major difference; hydro always made me sick for a moment before the high kicked in and addressed it, no matter how clean it was, the high was dedicated to soothing the "stomach heartburn" feeling the bud itself caused, while the huge sugary surge of natural bud soothed my stomach and proceeded to get me high from a position of neutral comfort position rather than a negative one.

2 opposite effects during the onset, a positive and a negative. Whatever makes organic taste so rich and sugary, thats the medicine I seek most from the plant, (for my stomach issues caused by man-made chemicals) and hydro not only doesn't have it but counters it, no matter how much Budcandy you throw at it, hydro will taste like sugary air at best. Bud Lite.

With that said I wasn't completely offended with hydro until getting my mmj card and seeing straight up willful patient abuse. I had no opinion on flushing until walking into a dispensary.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Yes there's a major difference. In Kevin Jodreys words "chemical pot breaks down radically different than organic". If you dont know the difference, sorry. Synthetic bacteria poop cannot produce a natural product the way real bacteria poop can.

How to cure synthetically grown pot: use lots of silica so it doesn't turn to dust, flush with citric acid, use brovida, and sell it to casual smokers within 2 months for 100/oz.

How to cure biologically grown pot: grow in healthy soil, let the high Brix, high lipid high overall metabolite pot basically cure itself without thought or effort, watch bud get better and more valuable every day for 5 months straight, 70 an 8th to the right people.

Chemical salt based fertilizer is not “synthetic”. They are the same chemicals the “organic” elements break down to for plant use.

And my hybrid grown flowers sure dont “turn to dust”.

And environment and the grow itself is much more important to quality than method in my experience.

I have only grown personally for 5 years but like you i have been in the industry a long time. Since the early 80’s for me.

 

[Kot]

I can only say that there was a study showing cannabis plant grown with chemical fertilizers had 27% more flavonoids than a plant grown organically. So this statement that organically grown weed tastes better is not true in all cases.

 

[Winter323]

there is no difference between an organic and “chemical” bud. Lol.

Unless you count tast, smell and chemical composition, but if your stoned and just wanting to answer the first thing that comes into your head then OK I guess that will have to do...

 

[Winter323]

I can only say that there was a study showing cannabis plant grown with chemical fertilizers had 27% more flavonoids than a plant grown organically. So this statement that organically grown weed tastes better is not true in all cases.

True but this is kind of obvious but after growing for 20 years on and off, I barely want to smoke any flower that was given more than a dash of chemical salts in flower, even grown myself amending heavy with smoothieponics, where as organics just trashes everyones weed in the state as far as smell, flavor and bag appeal but your right not all organics. There is more to growing than "organic materials get broken down into salts" OK maybe if you dont consider the hundreds of other compounds present in most organics amendments. Fruit for example not only do you get NPK but you get all those fancy aminos, enzymes and what not that the nutrient companies are trying to charge you $200 for 100 mls of, that are inferior products to their natural counterparts, but a good thing to sell noobs.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Unless you count tast, smell and chemical composition, but if your stoned and just wanting to answer the first thing that comes into your head then OK I guess that will have to do...

Lol. Please post any actual evidence of your claim. No one has ever said anything like that about my flowers regardless of medium or fertilizer type. Sure have been a lot of outdoor organic growers that have tried them.

 

[Winter323]

Now here are the issues with curing, first if you are in an organic mix with bugs, worms, compost etc etc people dont flush because its impossible to flush the same as in soilless or hydro, plus it kind of antagonistic towards the soil enviroment, so your goal here is to get the best flavor possible by balancing all the factors. Maybe by having alot of worms your weed will always taste like worm poop and you want to minimize this element. I remember one person selling beneficial insects satchels on craigslist who saying they life in the buds and their poop doesn't taste as bad as similar beneficials. Sure maybe its better to use them than say eagle20, forbid, or floramite but I personally wouldnt.

So if you have bad flavor inside the buds from some kind of non flushable organic compound your best bet would be to harvest your branches and let them sit in a nice flower vase filled with R/O to help purge out some of the excess compounds which happens to very fairly effective, and its nice to have beautiful flowers sitting around your home for a few days to enjoy your many months of hard work.

 

[Winter323]

But getting back to the original question, there has been much scrutiny lately about a fast hot dry being better than a slow cold one. I can say I have always found slow and cold to give the best flavor but I haven't done too much experimenting with fast and hot (kind of like letting them go dry in their pots before harvest), but I am still going with the slow and cold but will do some side by side.

Now what I have been liking recently is being able to skip most of the trimming by letting it go dry where the leaves will basically trim themselves by rolling them around in a plastic bag, but the leaves have to very dry for this, which requires that you rehydrate after trimming to get the proper humidity levels for curing, which I like to use fresh fruit + terpenes, for as the terpenes help a little with the smell as well as providing the fruit with anti-fungal/microbial properties, although its not usually needed as you dont want to get them too much humidity. Then just seal them in jars and open then once a day/every couple days until you get that perfect humidity then mostly just leave them in the dark sealed.

 

[Winter323]

Lol. Please post any actual evidence of your claim. No one has ever said anything like that about my flowers regardless of medium or fertilizer type. Sure have been a lot of outdoor organic growers that have tried them.

I guarantee your weed is like all this 100/oz dispensary stuff that looks good and tastes good but is salty AF and is a bummer to smoke. Some people like growing Sweet weed, others prefer SALTY Maybe one day someone will share some actually good tasting flower with you, but IDK...

 

[MIMedGrower]

I guarantee your weed is like all this 100/oz dispensary stuff that looks good and tastes good but is salty AF and is a bummer to smoke. Some people like growing Sweet weed, others prefer SALTY Maybe one day someone will share some actually good tasting flower with you, but IDK...

You are wrong. I grow because of shitty dispensary weed. You suck accusing me of being a crappy cash cropper without knowing me. I post results and pics of my garden regularly here. I use quality potting soil and no additives at all. Just a base fertilizer. And it has only made small differences in taste with different fertilizer types.

No patients were able to choose organic or chemical salt based buds in our blind testing.

And you would fail too. These folks are very experienced smokers and grew up in farm country. You sound like a permanent noob.


Again. Regardless of your unfounded opinion. Please post your peer reviewed proof of the plant biology you know nohing about.

 

[Kot]

So if you have bad flavor inside the buds from some kind of non flushable organic compound your best bet would be to harvest your branches and let them sit in a nice flower vase filled with R/O to help purge out some of the excess compounds which happens to very fairly effective

I call this impossible.