Dirtbags Do-over... 🤪 Back to Organic!

[beluga]

Even farmhouse and sour beers are inoculated with cultured yeasts nowadays, there are very few breweries that don't inoculate. Even the ones that open ferment. Open fermentation is done to reduce the pressure in the vessel more than anything. They're dosed with yeast and the Krausen will prevent any wild yeast from even getting in. Also the open fermenters some breweries use are in very well sealed, very clean environments. Most of the breweries who still open ferment without inoculation are Belgian trappist breweries using fermenting rooms that are centuries old and well developed. But even most of those have converted to inoculation for repeatability.

This is what my buddy uses for farmhouse ales. Its also what breweries use.

Strain: 3726 for Farmhouse Ale | Yeast & Cultures by Wyeast Labs

This strain produces complex esters balanced with earthy/spicy notes. Slightly tart and dry with a peppery finish. A perfect strain for farmhouse ales and saisons. This Wyeast yeast strain has been classified as Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. diastaticus using rapid PCR analysis. This strain...

wyeastlab.com

Out here in boonies Pennsylvania, we've got a few breweries (a couple who are close friends) who do open with no inoculation... they'll just brett bomb them if they happen to contaminate and it still makes for an alright drink... think of the Flanders red iron/blood taste.
I've heard it's something to do with, like in Belgium, France, etc., all the orchards and the old ass houses creating a microbiome within themselves.

 

[Dirtbag]

Out here in boonies Pennsylvania, we've got a few breweries (a couple who are close friends) who do open with no inoculation... they'll just brett bomb them if they happen to contaminate and it still makes for an alright drink... think of the Flanders red iron/blood taste.
I've heard it's something to do with, like in Belgium, France, etc., all the orchards and the old ass houses creating a microbiome within themselves.

Yeah I mean it can be done, but its hit or miss.. and even they keep Brett on hand because they know its unreliable.
And good luck making the same beer twice that way. I don't know.. Its just not my thing, and I personally find the taste of those styles revolting lol.

And yeah that exactly it. The old fermenting rooms in some of those old abbys are honestly kinda gross and dirty looking from pics I've seen.. Cobwebs in the corners of centuries old wooden architecture. The strain of yeast and bacteria they want in their brews have naturally populated the room over the course of several hundred years.

 

[beluga]

Yeah... don't get me wrong, the Flanders/Abbey style is definitely just a nice here and there drink. And, yeah, their caves can get wicked.
What I crave is the bright, coconutty, low abv saisons that they are able to reproduce with a good amount of consistency.
I personally just use US-05 and make cream ales for most of my drinkin'... or buy Genesee .

But I guess my main point, to bring this back on topic, was to give a functioning example the 'open' methodology.

 

[Dirtbag]

Right, and I agree. It absolutely happens and works. And with modern science we have the ability to be a bit more selective in which microbes we use for a given desired outcome. Depends what your goals are I guess, if its honoring a traditional method of brewing a farmhouse ale, open un-innoculated works. But if its to act as a biopesticide, I want to know which spp and var I've got, and roughly at what concentrations.

 

[Dirtbag]

Here is another way to frame this. Take Beauveria bassiana for example. Its a naturally occurring fungi found in soils all over the world.
Concentrate it and call it a microbial innoculant and you have Botanigard 22wp.
Take naturally occuring Trichoderma harzianum strain T-22, and Trichoderma virens strain G-41, put them together and what do you get? Rootshield plus, probably the number one biopesticide for pythium prevention.
Just because it can form naturally doesn't mean its going to do anywhere near the same thing as a concentrated innoculant.

As for the nutrient cycling bacteria, I concede that those occur naturally if food is present and conditions are correct. But honestly using compost or worm compost IS innoculating them with microbes, so you cant really say they just appear out of thin air. And in some instances I still see an advantage to using innoculants, for example if you aren't using a lot of vermi/compost.

 

[Aqua Man]

Here is another way to frame this. Take Beauveria bassiana for example. Its a naturally occurring fungi found in soils all over the world.
Concentrate it and call it a microbial innoculant and you have Botanigard 22wp.
Take naturally occuring Trichoderma harzianum strain T-22, and Trichoderma virens strain G-41, put them together and what do you get? Rootshield plus, probably the number one biopesticide for pythium prevention.
Just because it can form naturally doesn't mean its going to do anywhere near the same thing as a concentrated innoculant.

As for the nutrient cycling bacteria, I concede that those occur naturally if food is present and conditions are correct. But in some instances I still see an advantage to using innoculants for those.

I agree 100% I dont feel there is an absolute need to do so. Even the microbes that are not nutrients processing. Its personal preference and the cost on some is ridiculous.

Hydrogaurd is a perfect example. It's works well for its intended use but very low counts compared to others at literally a fraction of the cost. Most of the stuff we get transitions from elsewhere and simply put... we get gouged for it.

I also agree with @MIMedGrower the nutrient processors will occur naturally. In most cases we can make our own and use them as innoculants if we desire at next to no cost. Also the fact that we get ripped on every fad coming along and yes same in this case but personally after looking into i feel its worth it. Maybe not so much the nutrient processors but often they come all in one. Unlike how we started out with things like hydrogaurd thats a single species. But absolutely is extremely effective in its purpose even if you can get 50x times the amount of the same species for about $8 as opposed to $80. There are some good bargains out there if you know where to look. I honestly believe we can innoculate and keep these going to prevent having to pay multiple times for them. Its just a matter of housekeeping. I ha e done this with many many things from bacteria to cultures of microworms etc. Many do worm compost and this is no different if willing to put in the work and money.

I guess it really comes down to the value for the individual. Cost, time, especially the application. I know in coco I'm going to benefit from it. Some like FFOF you may not see as much benefit but its much dependant on the grow type and grower.

@MIMedGrower grows amazing plants with nothing of the sort so i can see how its not attractive to him in the least... nor necessary.

 

[beluga]

Here is another way to frame this. Take Beauveria bassiana for example. Its a naturally occurring fungi found in soils all over the world.
Concentrate it and call it a microbial innoculant and you have Botanigard 22wp.
Take naturally occuring Trichoderma harzianum strain T-22, and Trichoderma virens strain G-41, put them together and what do you get? Rootshield plus, probably the number one biopesticide for pythium prevention.
Just because it can form naturally doesn't mean its going to do anywhere near the same thing as a concentrated innoculant.

As for the nutrient cycling bacteria, I concede that those occur naturally if food is present and conditions are correct. But honestly using compost or worm compost IS innoculating them with microbes, so you cant really say they just appear out of thin air. And in some instances I still see an advantage to using innoculants, for example if you aren't using a lot of vermi/compost.

This is why I treasure you guyses.
I catch trich in my mushroom substrate > add it to my soil > plants seem to boom > I think, 'oh, I've got the good trich.'
End of "logic"

 

[Dirtbag]

This is why I treasure you guyses.
I catch trich in my mushroom substrate > add it to my soil > plants seem to boom > I think, 'oh, I've got the good trich.'
End of "logic"

Most of the trichodermas are somewhat benificial to plants, but some are extremely beneficial.
How are you identifying that its even trich you have?

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

I would argue that Mycorrhizae is a good candidate for targeted inoculation because the various fungal species are specific to the host plant or at least the family of host plant. Where as other bacteria and fungi in the rhizosphere don't care what crop you are growing.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I would argue that Mycorrhizae is a good candidate for targeted inoculation because the various fungal species are specific to the host plant or at least the family of host plant. Where as other bacteria and fungi in the rhizosphere don't care what crop you are growing.

the major soil companies must think so too.

 

[Dirtbag]

I would argue that Mycorrhizae is a good candidate for targeted inoculation because the various fungal species are specific to the host plant or at least the family of host plant. Where as other bacteria and fungi in the rhizosphere don't care what crop you are growing.

I would argue it is in organic soils where the phosphorus is released in low doses. I personally feel its pointless using it in a fast growing media like promix or coco thats being fed nutrient salts. Myco don't work if the P content of the nutrient solution in the media goes over 60ppm. Thats why its omitted from the Raw bloom microbes.
It also explains why I've never once seen a myco bloom in a salt fertilizer fed promix crop despite the fact that it has it in it.

Compared to this crop, I've already got visible myco blooms.

 

[Dirtbag]

The other thing i have read with myco is that its been shown to develop the best symbiosis if you actually apply it to the roots directly during transplant into organic soil. The roots have to make good contact with it as its establishing for it to work properly. I sprinkle it into the transplant holes.

 

[beluga]

Most of the trichodermas are somewhat benificial to plants, but some are extremely beneficial.
How are you identifying that its even trich you have?

Another fair point of scrutiny.
Only through referencing identification guides/texts to distinguish cultural markers... I have thrown them under a high school microscope, but I have never bothered with the effort/expense of having any kind of sequencing, etc. to assuredly identify.

Let's just say I've got a pretty keen eye distinguishing between aspergillus, penicillium, and trichoderma.. on a macro observation level.

 

[Dirtbag]

Another fair point of scrutiny.
Only through referencing identification guides/texts to distinguish cultural markers... I have thrown them under a high school microscope, but I have never bothered with the effort/expense of having any kind of sequencing, etc. to assuredly identify.

Let's just say I've got a pretty keen eye distinguishing between aspergillus, penicillium, and trichoderma.. on a macro observation level.

Lol honestly sounds pretty impressive dude. I mean the stuff I pay $22 for a little bag of is made by some guy in a lab with Petrie dishs so its possible you got trich too lol. But yeah they all act differently, and some work a lot better than others.

That sounds neat what you got going on there though. My wife is just getting into mycology and I think we're gonna poke our first jar of oats with some blue meanie juice in a few weeks.

 

[beluga]

Lol honestly sounds pretty impressive dude. I mean the stuff I pay $22 for a little bag of is made by some guy in a lab with Petrie dishs so its possible you got trich too lol. But yeah they all act differently, and some work a lot better than others.

That sounds neat what you got going on there though. My wife is just getting into mycology and I think we're gonna poke our first jar of oats with some blue meanie juice in a few weeks.

Yeah... sometimes I forget to make the distinction between science and science fiction...
I always expect labs to be these crazy clean rooms with flashing lights and buttons and tubes and isolation chambers with warning/biohazard labels on everything...
But I see some of them and it's nothing much more than a still air environment, propane torch, autoclave, and candied malt in plastic dishes...

That's awesome and exciting!
It really doesn't take too much in the way of sophisticated instruments.
I think the most specialized piece of equipment is a pressure cooker... which makes my point.
Feel free to pique my brain on it... I'm not the best around, but I've got the basics on lock.

 

[Dirtbag]

Yeah... sometimes I forget to make the distinction between science and science fiction...
I always expect labs to be these crazy clean rooms with flashing lights and buttons and tubes and isolation chambers with warning/biohazard labels on everything...
But I see some of them and it's nothing much more than a still air environment, propane torch, autoclave, and candied malt in plastic dishes...

That's awesome and exciting!
It really doesn't take too much in the way of sophisticated instruments.
I think the most specialized piece of equipment is a pressure cooker... which makes my point.
Feel free to pique my brain on it... I'm not the best around, but I've got the basics on lock.

Ok my first question is, is the pressure canner/cooker absolutely necessary? My wife is insisting that she read somewhere that just boil canning the pft or oats will work. Im pushing to get a pressure vessel of some sort. It seems like a lot of work to be taking chances.

 

[Aqua Man]

Ok my first question is, is the pressure canner/cooker absolutely necessary? My wife is insisting that she read somewhere that just boil canning the pft or oats will work. Im pushing to get a pressure vessel of some sort. It seems like a lot of work to be taking chances.

Pressure cooker absolutely a must bro!

There i got ur back bro lol.

Today I convinced my wife I needed a new ph pen. So I grabbed the blue labs cause he gave me a discount for some other shit I had on order....typical sales but sucked me in. Shhh our secret.

 

[Dirtbag]

Meh, don't really know why I bother as I know there won't be any convincing her. At least not until she tries it herself and fails. She is stubborn like that.

 

[beluga]

Ok my first question is, is the pressure canner/cooker absolutely necessary? My wife is insisting that she read somewhere that just boil canning the pft or oats will work. Im pushing to get a pressure vessel of some sort. It seems like a lot of work to be taking chances.

Yeah... the only situation I would say it's okay to 'sterilize' under normal atmospheric pressure is if you use the PF Tek with 1/2 pint jars, brown rice flour, and vermiculite. And that method is basically just a lot more of a crap shoot because you're not reducing the microbe population nearly as much as with pressurized sterilization.

I'd say it's practically impossible if you're using whole grains.

A Presto 23 quart should only run you ~$60 USD and will do everything you need.

 

[Dirtbag]

Yeah... the only situation I would say it's okay to 'sterilize' under normal atmospheric pressure is if you use the PF Tek with 1/2 pint jars, brown rice flour, and vermiculite. And that method is basically just a lot more of a crap shoot because you're not reducing the microbe population nearly as much as with pressurized sterilization.

I'd say it's practically impossible if you're using whole grains.

A Presto 23 quart should only run you ~$60 USD and will do everything you need.

Yeah thats the method she wants to try. I wanna do oats and bulk to coir. We've had some debates and she wants to "start small" whatever tf that means lol. I wanna produce some damn shrooms!

I don't know much about growing mushrooms. But you can easily tell between my wife and I which one has more experience in drug production lol.