Dirtbags Do-over... 🤪 Back to Organic!

[Aqua Man]

#ADDirtbag

 

[Milson]

#ADDirtbag

#JustADDirtbag

 

[Dirtbag]

Haha, yeah i guess maybe i am a bit ADD. Sort of..
I think its more OCD though. Once something has my attention, Im all in. And i can stay remarkably focused on a task or hobby until ive had enough, learned enough, then i toss it and move on to something else once im bored with it. For me the most fun aspect of any hobby is the learning curve. Once ive got a handle on something, the interest seems to wane... unless there is a good reason to keep doing it.

With brewing i was obsessed for 5-6 years. Once i was reliably making amazing beer every brew, it just became work. There was no learning anymore to keep me interested.

 

[Milson]

Haha, yeah i guess maybe i am a bit ADD. Sort of..
I think its more OCD though. Once something has my attention, Im all in. And i can stay remarkably focused on a task or hobby until ive had enough, learned enough, then i toss it and move on to something else once im bored with it. For me the most fun aspect of any hobby is the learning curve. Once ive got a handle on something, the interest seems to wane... unless there is a good reason to keep doing it.

With brewing i was obsessed for 5-6 years. Once i was reliably making amazing beer every brew, it just became work. There was no learning anymore to keep me interested.

That's something i really admire about Japanese culture.....their comfort in just committing to doing something absolutely perfectly.....like that netflix movie jiro Dreams of sushi where the guy makes omelet egg every day for over a year and never gets it quite right enough for the restaurant until at last he does.....

I'm like you. Gotta keep learning and growing or i want to move on.

 

[Aqua Man]

Haha, yeah i guess maybe i am a bit ADD. Sort of..
I think its more OCD though. Once something has my attention, Im all in. And i can stay remarkably focused on a task or hobby until ive had enough, learned enough, then i toss it and move on to something else once im bored with it. For me the most fun aspect of any hobby is the learning curve. Once ive got a handle on something, the interest seems to wane... unless there is a good reason to keep doing it.

With brewing i was obsessed for 5-6 years. Once i was reliably making amazing beer every brew, it just became work. There was no learning anymore to keep me interested.

Sounds all to familiar. Had a billion hobbies over the years... this one never ends thank God. And yes I consider this a hobby lol

 

[amekins]

Haha, yeah i guess maybe i am a bit ADD. Sort of..
I think its more OCD though. Once something has my attention, Im all in. And i can stay remarkably focused on a task or hobby until ive had enough, learned enough, then i toss it and move on to something else once im bored with it. For me the most fun aspect of any hobby is the learning curve. Once ive got a handle on something, the interest seems to wane... unless there is a good reason to keep doing it.

With brewing i was obsessed for 5-6 years. Once i was reliably making amazing beer every brew, it just became work. There was no learning anymore to keep me interested.

I very much understand this. But you also juggle MULTIPLE new learning adventures simultaneously. So you get to swap out AND toss aside when you’re done. It’s all good. I’m along for the ride, right?

 

[amekins]

Haha, yeah i guess maybe i am a bit ADD. Sort of..
I think its more OCD though. Once something has my attention, Im all in. And i can stay remarkably focused on a task or hobby until ive had enough, learned enough, then i toss it and move on to something else once im bored with it. For me the most fun aspect of any hobby is the learning curve. Once ive got a handle on something, the interest seems to wane... unless there is a good reason to keep doing it.

With brewing i was obsessed for 5-6 years. Once i was reliably making amazing beer every brew, it just became work. There was no learning anymore to keep me interested.

Oh and that hyper focused attention is pretty common (in my experience) with folks (like my son) who are on the spectrum. It is one of the most wonderful qualities—to love to learn. You will never be bored if you learn how to love learning itself.

 

[Odiesel]

I really enjoyed coco. I think what was annoying was constantly dumping the runoff so if i go back to that ill need a condensate pump for sure. And as much as i liked the small pots and multifeeds, i really grew to hate that trellis netting shit. So using something that allows bigger pots and stakes for support is welcome.
Im quite enjoying the simplicity of this grow so far. Who knows, my whole approach to how and why i grow took a turn with my last grow disaster.
Knowing how I operate though, i wont be surprised if i do something totally different next

Speaking of runoff and condensate pumps I need to design me something for this next cycle so i can have the runoff draining in my 4x4 tent.

 

[Aqua Man]

Speaking of runoff and condensate pumps I need to design me something for this next cycle so i can have the runoff draining in my 4x4 tent.

Vid i took of my ghetto budget auto drain using a furnace condensate pump. Cheap like $60 i think. Complete with float switch. I changed the container cause I fucked the original by cutting it. If you can find one with adjustable float it would be handy and a larger container helps a bit since the condensate pumps run a bit less gph so it kinda buffers it. Mind you I am running 24 plants worth of run off at once so probably not much of an issue if not running that many plants.

Can prob rig up drains to a 5 gal and a condensate pump inside to remove it if using drain pans rather than build a table. Just have the drain pans above the waterline so they will fill enough for the pump to kick on.

 

[Dr.Green55]

I don't really like posting on the organic versus salts thing, because its a touchy subject. But here is some of my opinions and even some stuff that came to light in the last few years.

Ions are ions period. they either come from organics sources or synthetic fertilizer, but in the end if you have an ion there is no way to tell what source it came from because they are 100% the same,

organics need microbes to get the nutrient to ion form, synthetic fertilizer or salts ( which they are not) dissolves in water and are up taken without the need for microbes. However synthetic fertilizer do not kill microbes, and if you are applying enough to kill them, or reduce them its already to late because you killed your plant. microbes have a roll in both forms of feeding, microbes whether in organic or synthetic fertilizer need them, use them absorb them, in synthetic fertilizer they help balance them out eating excess, producing enzymes, amino acids, possible even B1, they also help prevent bad bacterial like Pythium and other pathogens from taking hold. plus other stuff, but they have a very needed roll in either system.

I also don't believe in or you can force feed plants, Plants are selective eaters. The force feeding part I believe is a misunderstanding of how plants feed in different systems. in organics once the the nutrient is in ion form and ready for uptake the plant will take it as needed, however the plant has to work hard for it, upwards of 30% of the plants energy is used to get food, by secreting a substance out the roots to attract the microbes to produce the ions in root proximity for uptake, plus all other soil issues. with synthetic fertilizer its much easier for your plant to uptake the ions, the plant doesn't have to work for its food, it doesn't secrete anything to attract microbes , it doesn need to , so no wasted energy , that energy is now in plant growth etc, your plant will uptake more food because its more readily available and at very low cost for the plant to get, but under, over fertilizing, to wet , to dry etc all cause issues. hydro is easier yet, a constant supply of fresh nutrients flowing over its roots, etc etc, hope you see my point. but in anyone of these systems your plant will only uptake nutrients on the factors of energy spent, availability and need. Over, underfeeding is grower error, example nitrogen, deficiency, not enough for the plant or to much in soil etc, preventing proper uptake. nitrogen burn to much nitrogen in the soil taking water away from the plant causing dehydration. leaf tip burn. its not because it to much nitrogen in the plant its because it to much in the soil, grower error.

I have seen, been part of and had the results in my hands, lab tests of element levels in organics, synthetic fertilizer used in soil and synthetic fertilizer used in hydro. some of the lowest levels I seen were from hydro and soil that were pushed hard with synthetic fertilizers and had a proper flush. a lot of factors involved but mostly grower.

 

[Odiesel]

Vid i took of my ghetto budget auto drain using a furnace condensate pump. Cheap like $60 i think. Complete with float switch. I changed the container cause I fucked the original by cutting it. If you can find one with adjustable float it would be handy and a larger container helps a bit since the condensate pumps run a bit less gph so it kinda buffers it. Mind you I am running 24 plants worth of run off at once so probably not much of an issue if not running that many plants.

Can prob rig up drains to a 5 gal and a condensate pump inside to remove it if using drain pans rather than build a table. Just have the drain pans above the waterline so they will fill enough for the pump to kick on.

I like the table idea and would rather try and build something that could fit in the 4x4 before buying one of those expensive trays they sell.
With your current setup it looks like it is pretty conservative on space which is a setup i would need to build in order to try and maximize the use of my 4x4 tent. I thought about possibly getting a 5x5 but at that point i should just build a section in my room instead of using a tent.

 

[Aqua Man]

I don't really like posting on the organic versus salts thing, because its a touchy subject. But here is some of my opinions and even some stuff that came to light in the last few years.

Ions are ions period. they either come from organics sources or synthetic fertilizer, but in the end if you have an ion there is no way to tell what source it came from because they are 100% the same,

organics need microbes to get the nutrient to ion form, synthetic fertilizer or salts ( which they are not) dissolves in water and are up taken without the need for microbes. However synthetic fertilizer do not kill microbes, and if you are applying enough to kill them, or reduce them its already to late because you killed your plant. microbes have a roll in both forms of feeding, microbes whether in organic or synthetic fertilizer need them, use them absorb them, in synthetic fertilizer they help balance them out eating excess, producing enzymes, amino acids, possible even B1, they also help prevent bad bacterial like Pythium and other pathogens from taking hold. plus other stuff, but they have a very needed roll in either system.

I also don't believe in or you can force feed plants, Plants are selective eaters. The force feeding part I believe is a misunderstanding of how plants feed in different systems. in organics once the the nutrient is in ion form and ready for uptake the plant will take it as needed, however the plant has to work hard for it, upwards of 30% of the plants energy is used to get food, by secreting a substance out the roots to attract the microbes to produce the ions in root proximity for uptake, plus all other soil issues. with synthetic fertilizer its much easier for your plant to uptake the ions, the plant doesn't have to work for its food, it doesn't secrete anything to attract microbes , it doesn need to , so no wasted energy , that energy is now in plant growth etc, your plant will uptake more food because its more readily available and at very low cost for the plant to get, but under, over fertilizing, to wet , to dry etc all cause issues. hydro is easier yet, a constant supply of fresh nutrients flowing over its roots, etc etc, hope you see my point. but in anyone of these systems your plant will only uptake nutrients on the factors of energy spent, availability and need. Over, underfeeding is grower error, example nitrogen, deficiency, not enough for the plant or to much in soil etc, preventing proper uptake. nitrogen burn to much nitrogen in the soil taking water away from the plant causing dehydration. leaf tip burn. its not because it to much nitrogen in the plant its because it to much in the soil, grower error.

I have seen, been part of and had the results in my hands, lab tests of element levels in organics, synthetic fertilizer used in soil and synthetic fertilizer used in hydro. some of the lowest levels I seen were from hydro and soil that were pushed hard with synthetic fertilizers and had a proper flush. a lot of factors involved but mostly grower.

Love this... and fully agree with you. One thing that keeps coming back is the diversity of microbes involved in organic grows and how its possible they may create very beneficial relationships with the plant. I have avoided digging further into it because it becomes over my head.

I cant agree more that the plants are completely blind to source. A clean fert is a clean fert imo both can be dirty and honestly feel that organic runs a higher risk of that.

But I just can't help but feel there are answers to be found on the benefits of organics we as a community may not yet know of yet.

 

[Dr.Green55]

Love this... and fully agree with you. One thing that keeps coming back is the diversity of microbes involved in organic grows and how its possible they may create very beneficial relationships with the plant. I have avoided digging further into it because it becomes over my head.

I cant agree more that the plants are completely blind to source. A clean fert is a clean fert imo both can be dirty and honestly feel that organic runs a higher risk of that.

But I just can't help but feel there are answers to be found on the benefits of organics we as a community may not yet know of yet.

Thanks man , As I agree with you that there is plenty we don't know and there is going to be many benefits in all forms of growing that we don't no of or understand yet

 

[dire wolf]

That's something i really admire about Japanese culture.....their comfort in just committing to doing something absolutely perfectly.....like that netflix movie jiro Dreams of sushi where the guy makes omelet egg every day for over a year and never gets it quite right enough for the restaurant until at last he does.....

I'm like you. Gotta keep learning and growing or i want to move on.

Hey Milson , thought you might like this one ... I was in New York City in a restaurant and I noticed a guy who looked like toshiro mifune from the Akira Kurosawa film seven samurai , I went over to him to see who he

was and he offered me this tribute catalogue , he just came from the Japan film center celebrating his life's work , he signed this for me ..very zen , cool moment in time , aparrantely it was 1984 .....

 

[Milson]

Hey Milson , thought you might like this one ... I was in New York City in a restaurant and I noticed a guy who looked like toshiro mifune from the Akira Kurosawa film seven samurai , I went over to him to see who heView attachment 1055863View attachment 1055865 was and he offered me this tribute catalogue , he just came from the Japan film center celebrating his life's work , he signed this for me ..very zen , cool moment in time , aparrantely it was 1984 .....

Wowwww

 

[dire wolf]

Wowwww

Exactly , 36 years later and it still blows me away when I look at it .......

 

[Dirtbag]

I don't really like posting on the organic versus salts thing, because its a touchy subject. But here is some of my opinions and even some stuff that came to light in the last few years.

Ions are ions period. they either come from organics sources or synthetic fertilizer, but in the end if you have an ion there is no way to tell what source it came from because they are 100% the same,

organics need microbes to get the nutrient to ion form, synthetic fertilizer or salts ( which they are not) dissolves in water and are up taken without the need for microbes. However synthetic fertilizer do not kill microbes, and if you are applying enough to kill them, or reduce them its already to late because you killed your plant. microbes have a roll in both forms of feeding, microbes whether in organic or synthetic fertilizer need them, use them absorb them, in synthetic fertilizer they help balance them out eating excess, producing enzymes, amino acids, possible even B1, they also help prevent bad bacterial like Pythium and other pathogens from taking hold. plus other stuff, but they have a very needed roll in either system.

I also don't believe in or you can force feed plants, Plants are selective eaters. The force feeding part I believe is a misunderstanding of how plants feed in different systems. in organics once the the nutrient is in ion form and ready for uptake the plant will take it as needed, however the plant has to work hard for it, upwards of 30% of the plants energy is used to get food, by secreting a substance out the roots to attract the microbes to produce the ions in root proximity for uptake, plus all other soil issues. with synthetic fertilizer its much easier for your plant to uptake the ions, the plant doesn't have to work for its food, it doesn't secrete anything to attract microbes , it doesn need to , so no wasted energy , that energy is now in plant growth etc, your plant will uptake more food because its more readily available and at very low cost for the plant to get, but under, over fertilizing, to wet , to dry etc all cause issues. hydro is easier yet, a constant supply of fresh nutrients flowing over its roots, etc etc, hope you see my point. but in anyone of these systems your plant will only uptake nutrients on the factors of energy spent, availability and need. Over, underfeeding is grower error, example nitrogen, deficiency, not enough for the plant or to much in soil etc, preventing proper uptake. nitrogen burn to much nitrogen in the soil taking water away from the plant causing dehydration. leaf tip burn. its not because it to much nitrogen in the plant its because it to much in the soil, grower error.

I have seen, been part of and had the results in my hands, lab tests of element levels in organics, synthetic fertilizer used in soil and synthetic fertilizer used in hydro. some of the lowest levels I seen were from hydro and soil that were pushed hard with synthetic fertilizers and had a proper flush. a lot of factors involved but mostly grower.

Yeah i agree, and 6 months ago i scoffed at folks running organic. I thought my buddy who was a long time promix and hydro grower switching to organic was crazy, and i told him so. He had an epic failure on his first organic run, but after that he was able to produce results that had a far more complex aroma and flavour than his hydro gear ever had. Same strains. This was my first hand experience with insoluble and soluble organic feeds improving the flavour.

But if you read around you see stories over and over about people who have tested all different kinds of nutrients and settled on organic feeds because of the superior flavour. @Dragonsflame recently being one that helped to get my gears turning looking into knf.

As much as i am fully aware that the actual ions the plant takes up are the same, i still wonder what might be going on with these grows that could produce enhanced flavour for so many people. Enough curiosity to want to try it myself.

And even if its just returning to a somewhat more natural way of eating for the plant, im ok with that. But if i get to the end of this and my socks are not blown off by improved flavor, and there are negatives like slow growth and pests, ill be going back to more refined nutrieits. Ill happily stand behind my reasons for trying something for myself. But ill be the first to admit if it has little or no benefit. For me, I almost always want to try hotly debated stuff like this for myself before making a conclusion. Regardless what i think I know about the subject.

 

[Trustfall]

My gawd 40 pages in 12 days

 

[Dirtbag]

My gawd 40 pages in 12 days

We've covered quite a few subjects too dude, lol, its been wild.

Feels good to move on from the stale old "how i do" thread.

 

[Dr.Green55]

Yeah i agree, and 6 months ago i scoffed at folks running organic. I thought my buddy who was a long time promix and hydro grower switching to organic was crazy, and i told him so. He had an epic failure on his first organic run, but after that he was able to produce results that had a far more complex aroma and flavour than his hydro gear ever had. Same strains. This was my first hand experience with insoluble and soluble organic feeds improving the flavour.

But if you read around you see stories over and over about people who have tested all different kinds of nutrients and settled on organic feeds because of the superior flavour. @Dragonsflame recently being one that helped to get my gears turning looking into knf.

As much as i am fully aware that the actual ions the plant takes up are the same, i still wonder what might be going on with these grows that could produce enhanced flavour for so many people. Enough curiosity to want to try it myself.

And even if its just returning to a somewhat more natural way of eating for the plant, im ok with that. But if i get to the end of this and my socks are not blown off by improved flavor, and there are negatives like slow growth and pests, ill be going back to more refined nutrieits. Ill happily stand behind my reasons for trying something for myself. But ill be the first to admit if it has little or no benefit. For me, I almost always want to try hotly debated stuff like this for myself before making a conclusion. Regardless what i think I know about the subject.

Is organic better I Honestly don't know , I'm not questioning it, there is a very good possibility it may produce better flavors and stuff and its also the same possibility it doesn't. there is a lot still to be understood what goes on in the soil. I had organic that would make you ask why grow any other way, I had it that tasted like crap , I had it that tasted like fish it was grown in, I can also say the same for synthetic ferts , some of the best you ever had to some of the worst. flavors can be picked up in many ways, I knew guys that used to put pure vanilla in their hydro, and the weed had the most awesome vanilla taste. I know on many occasions we'd take our best grown organic and best grown hydro put a bunch of people in a room pass both around and see who knew which was which. very very few actually knew, mostly admittedly good guesses.And i'll say these people wasn't just any joe of the street. does it scientifically produce better flavors etc I don't know , but it sure does subjectively the same as synthetic. but I'd bet the biggest factor is the grower, experience, love and care they put into their growing regardless if its organic or synthetic. one will always do better growing in what their heart is into and what they truly try to master.