Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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Inside a flower room full of duds. While not all of them are showing the odd branching pattern. You can see the buds structure just off. Larfy minimal thrichomes. The nodes are bunched up, The nose is minimal, branches look pale and the leaves are small and mutated looking. This is OG kush the worst dudded room that we have. These cuts came from a mother that dudded so 100% trash in here. Not sure we may just have to trash this whole room. Big loss. Obviously the last room
I visited. Forgot to mention hand feeding these run to waste no recirculating nutes to avoid cross contamination’s. But at this point it’s prob pointless. All duds in this room
 
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Took this video some months ago of another room before the dudding problem hit. Same exact strain. But they look like completely different plants
 
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So let's wash this and start over I think at 1 point I felt you were making it personal or at least that's the way I took it. You make some valid points and I'm not and never was saying this issue does not exist. I do feel it was being used loosely and could have been handled better. One thing I know is when I take things personally it skews objective thought and rational. So I can say we're are likely both a little guilty of that. My concern is that we be cautious of the information we pass on and be honest about our certainty of it.
cool man. Sounds good I agree.
 
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Wow...While googling research on the dudding problem, I hit a search term that led me to find an old thread from 2016 on this forum under the topic of advanced techniques and problems. I stumbled upon a gold mine of information and argument on the topics regarding genetic mutations vs genetic drifts and epigenetics that provide some pretty logical explanations for why plants may dud and why mutation changes may be reversible and why they are passed on after cloning with some pretty knowledgeable cannabis heads here talking some deep stuff. Literally had to slow my reading down and thought process as I was challenged to think at their wavelength and try to make sense and understand their view points and perspectives toward the debate & conversation while making sense of their the supporting evidence they also attached within the thread.

Unfortunately none of these dudes are active on this forum anymore but they left some great insights on these topics and a supposedly a “solution” to get rid of the dudding problem that anyone can easily try at home without having to send cuts to a lab. Giving credit to @Wisher619 for his deep knowledge and understanding of these concepts. The guy’s a deep thinker and can understand complex ideas and
concepts and dumb them down. Really all the dudes on this thread seem well versed and smart. They can reason well and all make some good points towards the subject matter and most importantly back up their talk with research and data accordingly. There is some great insights here and I’m going to personally try what Wisher619 recommends for his innovative cloning technique and on how he’s fixed genetics that have dudded. While the technique is a bit extreme requiring you to dip your clones in bleach for specific period of time, his logic makes sense in taking the part of the plant which most likely holds the key as to why taking the healthiest tops of the apical meristem of a plant is your best bet in reverting the genetics back, which ties to the hypothesis and my current beliefs on why plants may really have a germline that can safeguard their genetic code within the apical meristem. Supposedly if your plant has mutated, the clone you take from that plant will also be a mutant. Which holds true as I’ve tested this before. But he claims that the new phenotype that arises from the mutation is only superficial expression and not permanent. Which makes an argument for why meristem cell culture can bring back the original genetics of a mutated clone or mother plant. Great stuff here and deserves to be resurfaced and tied to this sticky thread.

 
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More updates on viroids and cloning practices for minimizing or slowing down the spread over time.

In my quest of tying this whole dudding syndrome with viroids and trying to figure out best practices that we can use as growers to protect ourselves from the dudding phenomena and any future viroids that may arise in cannabis from the commercialization of the crop. I’ve reached out to Dr John Brunstein who is a PhD, and member of the MLO Editorial Advisory Board. He serves as President and Chief Science Officer for British Columbia-based PathoID, Inc., which provides consulting for development and validation of molecular assays.

I’ve gave him my observations that I’ve had regarding viroids and taking clones from moms versus clones from the tops of healthy looking veg plants that may also have the virus but have not developed any symptoms yet. Here is his answer which surprisingly suggests a treatment of bleach very similar to @Wisher619 treatment described in my previous post. He has a new paper in the works dealing specifically with viruses and viroids in cannabis which addresses some of the issues stated.

Quick answer however is that in plants, lacking an active circulatory system like animals, intracellular pathogenic microorganisms (including bacteria, fungi, viruses, and viroids) don’t always transmit along to all cells in the plant, and may move cell to cell rather slowly via existing vascularization. One result of this is that if you have an infection at one place – say, an insect has vectored a pathogen onto a particular leaf – you’ll get a localized area of disease which slowly spreads. If you take a cutting from this diseased area and do vegetative propagation, you’ll get a plant with most – and eventually, almost all – cells infected. However, if you take a cutting from a distal portion of the plant, it has a better chance of still being pathogen free, and allowing for onward propagation of healthy material.

The extreme example of this is microdissecting off apical meristematic tissue, before it’s vascularized. While I hesitate to say this is absolutely guaranteed to be pathogen free (it’s possible shared cytoplasm or nucleoplasm from progenitor cells could include pathogens, much as e.g. mitochondria and chloroplasts are transmitted to mitotic progeny) it’s at least “highly likely” to be pathogen free. It’s also effectively pluripotent when treated with right growth factors, and hyperthermic treatment can be used to further increase likelihood of clearance of any residual pathogen(s). This is the basis for plant tissue culture.

So quick answer – yes, it’s not surprising that if you select just youngest tissue from incoming starter plants, you will at least some of the time rid the clone of pathogens carried in more mature distal tissue. It would be best to combine this with a surface cleansing (dilute bleach) to reduce external pathogens as well, and then move the material into a clean facility. It’s not guaranteed to to work all the time – if a pathogen has spread enough to be in cuttings you took, it’s still there – but it will work at least some of the time and is probably good practice
.

Originally he had written this paper last month on genetic drift which caught my attention so I decided to reach out to him and ask him for his thoughts on why taking the tops of healthy veg plants had shielded me from the dudding syndrome until I started cloning from a mother olant.

 
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More updates on viroids and cloning practices for minimizing or slowing down the spread over time.

In my quest of tying this whole dudding syndrome with viroids and trying to figure out best practices that we can use as growers to protect ourselves from the dudding phenomena and any future viroids that may arise in cannabis from the commercialization of the crop. I’ve reached out to Dr John Brunstein who is a PhD, and member of the MLO Editorial Advisory Board. He serves as President and Chief Science Officer for British Columbia-based PathoID, Inc., which provides consulting for development and validation of molecular assays.

I’ve gave him my observations that I’ve had regarding viroids and taking clones from moms versus clones from the tops of healthy looking veg plants that may also have the virus but have not developed any symptoms yet. Here is his answer which surprisingly suggests a treatment of bleach very similar to @Wisher619 treatment described in my previous post. He has a new paper in the works dealing specifically with viruses and viroids in cannabis which addresses some of the issues stated.

Quick answer however is that in plants, lacking an active circulatory system like animals, intracellular pathogenic microorganisms (including bacteria, fungi, viruses, and viroids) don’t always transmit along to all cells in the plant, and may move cell to cell rather slowly via existing vascularization. One result of this is that if you have an infection at one place – say, an insect has vectored a pathogen onto a particular leaf – you’ll get a localized area of disease which slowly spreads. If you take a cutting from this diseased area and do vegetative propagation, you’ll get a plant with most – and eventually, almost all – cells infected. However, if you take a cutting from a distal portion of the plant, it has a better chance of still being pathogen free, and allowing for onward propagation of healthy material.

The extreme example of this is microdissecting off apical meristematic tissue, before it’s vascularized. While I hesitate to say this is absolutely guaranteed to be pathogen free (it’s possible shared cytoplasm or nucleoplasm from progenitor cells could include pathogens, much as e.g. mitochondria and chloroplasts are transmitted to mitotic progeny) it’s at least “highly likely” to be pathogen free. It’s also effectively pluripotent when treated with right growth factors, and hyperthermic treatment can be used to further increase likelihood of clearance of any residual pathogen(s). This is the basis for plant tissue culture.

So quick answer – yes, it’s not surprising that if you select just youngest tissue from incoming starter plants, you will at least some of the time rid the clone of pathogens carried in more mature distal tissue. It would be best to combine this with a surface cleansing (dilute bleach) to reduce external pathogens as well, and then move the material into a clean facility. It’s not guaranteed to to work all the time – if a pathogen has spread enough to be in cuttings you took, it’s still there – but it will work at least some of the time and is probably good practice
.

Originally he had written this paper last month on genetic drift which caught my attention so I decided to reach out to him and ask him for his thoughts on why taking the tops of healthy veg plants had shielded me from the dudding syndrome until I started cloning from a mother olant.


You can only do one right thing at this point since you know its the hop virus. You have to burn all the plants and start over from fresh seed.

And unless all the growers with shared genetics burn their stock it will just keep spreading.

I think you have a bigger responsibility to the industry than to your investors.


But because of money that wont happen.
 
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You can only do one right thing at this point since you know its the hop virus. You have to burn all the plants and start over from fresh seed.

And unless all the growers with shared genetics burn their stock it will just keep spreading.

I think you have a bigger responsibility to the industry than to your investors.


But because of money that wont happen.
what if it’s really old strain and only available in clone only form? How would you handle that scenario?
 
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what if it’s really old strain and only available in clone only form? How would you handle that scenario?

In my garden if confirmed in a lab test it would be gone in seconds.

I trashed my whole clone system and all rooting clones just for PM.

And i have no space for mothers. Best plants i had are simply gone.

But elite clones are mostly marketing. Plenty of great new plants to be found.
 
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In my garden if confirmed in a lab test it would be gone in seconds.

I trashed my whole clone system and all rooting clones just for PM.

And i have no space for mothers. Best plants i had are simply gone.

But elite clones are mostly marketing. Plenty of great new plants to be found.
if that’s the case then every plant that’s dudding should do the same and we will lose all the old elite strains forever. My plan is to kill everything but the best few clones I can take and send them off to get cleaned with the technique that is being used for other commercial crops. Wouldn’t that be the right thing to do? If there is a solution to the problem? Unfortunately I haven’t found a strain that I like better. We are talking about a clone that I’ve cared for 20 years. So there is a lot of sentimental value in letting her go. I would understand if it were any regular ole strain. But it’s the original Og kush clone only strain. Just imagine how much better it can get after the process reverting it back to its original form. Pathogen free and and able to express itself to its full potential. I understand where you are coming from and it there were no solution to the problem. I would have to do what you’ve mentioned.
 
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Im actually quite a bit surprised that you guys would recommend such drastic measures, when you guys are the ones helping everyone on this forum save their plants. If a plant has pm, one would suggest the measures needed to kill and control it. But once a plant has pm it has it forever so it’s similar to a viroid in that sense. Viroids don’t kill plants but caused them to dud and lose production and quality. Im not going out there selling clones either so I feel I’m doing my moral duty and If I were to pass the clone to someone I would ofcourse warn them of the risks of possible dudding
 
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Im actually quite a bit surprised that you guys would recommend such drastic measures, when you guys are the ones helping everyone on this forum save their plants. If a plant has pm, one would suggest the measures needed to kill and control it. But once a plant has pm it has it forever so it’s similar to a viroid in that sense. Viroids don’t kill plants but caused them to dud and lose production and quality. Im not going out there selling clones either so I feel I’m doing my moral duty and If I were to pass the clone to someone I would ofcourse warn them of the risks of possible dudding

I dont agree with treating pm or keeping any part of a moldy flower. Branch even.

I understand your sentimental attachment to your clone. But i was taught pros make seeds to refresh and propogate the plant over the years. Way sooner than 20 years.

If the treatment works and the clone tests clean can you still safely make seeds and re hunt for the keeper?
 
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I dont agree with treating pm or keeping any part of a moldy flower. Branch even.

I understand your sentimental attachment to your clone. But i was taught pros make seeds to refresh and propogate the plant over the years. Way sooner than 20 years.

If the treatment works and the clone tests clean can you still safely make seeds and re hunt for the keeper?
yes that is possible. I have back crossed the strain 13 times and have seeds. I will be planting those in the meantime and looking for a similar pheno.
 
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Day 1 of flower

The room where the dudding all started a few months ago where the dudded mother was. This is my boy’s pad. Has nothing to do with my big facility but he runs my cut. This where I got a tray from and brought the whole dudding problem to the large facility before I was aware of all the new info I have now. We’ve done all the measures recommended on this thread and have slowly weeded out the duds and worked towards reinforcing the immunity of the others. Plants have shown a major come back and seem to have bounced back from the fiasco.

Even though the viroid is still present, I believe that you can manage it as long as you are on it and you maintain a clean environment. You need to give them the tlc they truly reserve. I’m sure he’s learned his lesson now and he seems to be on top of things and very thankful for my help. I’ll keep progress here to see how they go through the flowering process. But so far so good...plants are starting to look like the old school og, cuts, the way they used to look.
 
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How do you know when and how the virus transfers? You seem to be saying its ok to keep infected plants just because they look healthier?

This is obviously why the hop virus is spreading.


I think what you are trying to do is very irrisponsible. You havent contained anything. And you will process and sell the infected plants. 3.5 pounds per light.
 

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
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Have to say it. Big business is all about the $$$. @Judaz be honest if you identified it at home on a small scale like you used to you would Infact eradicate the plants correct? I'm not going to judge we all have families to feed but I do agree it's irresponsible and I don't like it.
 
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Have to say it. Big business is all about the $$$. @Judaz be honest if you identified it at home on a small scale like you used to you would Infact eradicate the plants correct? I'm not going to judge we all have families to feed but I do agree it's irresponsible and I don't like it.
you guys are correct. I made the mistake of taking cuts from a place and brought them to another place which created a huge problem. This spot is my friends place at his home. He wants to see if we can improve the plant by taking the measures recommended on this thread and applying the knowledge, I’ve gained. Plant viroids only affect plants and pose no health risks to humans. Having Pm on buds and selling that to the consumer is way worse than having a plant with a viroid that yielded buds. So there is no health hazard to the human consumer. The hazard is in passing these clones without letting the person know what they have and infecting their other healthy plants. Which we are not doing. But as far as a test facility, I think it’s a good idea to study this and research to see if a plant can be managed to stay healthy and not let the viroid take over. That I believe is possible from the research I have done and we will see with the results from this place.
 
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Unless you can answer my containment questions you are just minimizing for your own acceptance.

Your crop for sale is not a testing facility. That would be a contained lab and the plants would have to stay in there.

Even if you send out a sample for testing you may be spreading the virus.

You are worried about your operations profit first. Well so are all the other growers.
 

Aqua Man

Staff member
Supporter
8,689
313
you guys are correct. I made the mistake of taking cuts from a place and brought them to another place which created a huge problem. This spot is my friends place at his home. He wants to see if we can improve the plant by taking the measures recommended on this thread and applying the knowledge, I’ve gained. Plant viroids only affect plants and pose no health risks to humans. Having Pm on buds and selling that to the consumer is way worse than having a plant with a viroid that yielded buds. So there is no health hazard to the human consumer. The hazard is in passing these clones without letting the person know what they have and infecting their other healthy plants. Which we are not doing. But as far as a test facility, I think it’s a good idea to study this and research to see if a plant can be managed to stay healthy and not let the viroid take over. That I believe is possible from the research I have done and we will see with the results from this place.
Don't affect people as far as we know. Science changes... Smoking used to be considered harmless and endorsed by the surgeon general.
 
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