Judaz
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So let's wash this and start over I think at 1 point I felt you were making it personal or at least that's the way I took it. You make some valid points and I'm not and never was saying this issue does not exist. I do feel it was being used loosely and could have been handled better. One thing I know is when I take things personally it skews objective thought and rational. So I can say we're are likely both a little guilty of that. My concern is that we be cautious of the information we pass on and be honest about our certainty of it.
More updates on viroids and cloning practices for minimizing or slowing down the spread over time.
In my quest of tying this whole dudding syndrome with viroids and trying to figure out best practices that we can use as growers to protect ourselves from the dudding phenomena and any future viroids that may arise in cannabis from the commercialization of the crop. I’ve reached out to Dr John Brunstein who is a PhD, and member of the MLO Editorial Advisory Board. He serves as President and Chief Science Officer for British Columbia-based PathoID, Inc., which provides consulting for development and validation of molecular assays.
I’ve gave him my observations that I’ve had regarding viroids and taking clones from moms versus clones from the tops of healthy looking veg plants that may also have the virus but have not developed any symptoms yet. Here is his answer which surprisingly suggests a treatment of bleach very similar to @Wisher619 treatment described in my previous post. He has a new paper in the works dealing specifically with viruses and viroids in cannabis which addresses some of the issues stated.
Quick answer however is that in plants, lacking an active circulatory system like animals, intracellular pathogenic microorganisms (including bacteria, fungi, viruses, and viroids) don’t always transmit along to all cells in the plant, and may move cell to cell rather slowly via existing vascularization. One result of this is that if you have an infection at one place – say, an insect has vectored a pathogen onto a particular leaf – you’ll get a localized area of disease which slowly spreads. If you take a cutting from this diseased area and do vegetative propagation, you’ll get a plant with most – and eventually, almost all – cells infected. However, if you take a cutting from a distal portion of the plant, it has a better chance of still being pathogen free, and allowing for onward propagation of healthy material.
The extreme example of this is microdissecting off apical meristematic tissue, before it’s vascularized. While I hesitate to say this is absolutely guaranteed to be pathogen free (it’s possible shared cytoplasm or nucleoplasm from progenitor cells could include pathogens, much as e.g. mitochondria and chloroplasts are transmitted to mitotic progeny) it’s at least “highly likely” to be pathogen free. It’s also effectively pluripotent when treated with right growth factors, and hyperthermic treatment can be used to further increase likelihood of clearance of any residual pathogen(s). This is the basis for plant tissue culture.
So quick answer – yes, it’s not surprising that if you select just youngest tissue from incoming starter plants, you will at least some of the time rid the clone of pathogens carried in more mature distal tissue. It would be best to combine this with a surface cleansing (dilute bleach) to reduce external pathogens as well, and then move the material into a clean facility. It’s not guaranteed to to work all the time – if a pathogen has spread enough to be in cuttings you took, it’s still there – but it will work at least some of the time and is probably good practice.
Originally he had written this paper last month on genetic drift which caught my attention so I decided to reach out to him and ask him for his thoughts on why taking the tops of healthy veg plants had shielded me from the dudding syndrome until I started cloning from a mother olant.
What is Genetic Drift and How Does it Apply to Cloning and Micro-propagation?
"Genetic drift" is often used to describe change in appearance/behavior of a clone variety over time. However, this may not be the correct use of the term.cannatechtoday.com
You can only do one right thing at this point since you know its the hop virus. You have to burn all the plants and start over from fresh seed.
And unless all the growers with shared genetics burn their stock it will just keep spreading.
I think you have a bigger responsibility to the industry than to your investors.
But because of money that wont happen.
what if it’s really old strain and only available in clone only form? How would you handle that scenario?
In my garden if confirmed in a lab test it would be gone in seconds.
I trashed my whole clone system and all rooting clones just for PM.
And i have no space for mothers. Best plants i had are simply gone.
But elite clones are mostly marketing. Plenty of great new plants to be found.
Im actually quite a bit surprised that you guys would recommend such drastic measures, when you guys are the ones helping everyone on this forum save their plants. If a plant has pm, one would suggest the measures needed to kill and control it. But once a plant has pm it has it forever so it’s similar to a viroid in that sense. Viroids don’t kill plants but caused them to dud and lose production and quality. Im not going out there selling clones either so I feel I’m doing my moral duty and If I were to pass the clone to someone I would ofcourse warn them of the risks of possible dudding
I dont agree with treating pm or keeping any part of a moldy flower. Branch even.
I understand your sentimental attachment to your clone. But i was taught pros make seeds to refresh and propogate the plant over the years. Way sooner than 20 years.
If the treatment works and the clone tests clean can you still safely make seeds and re hunt for the keeper?
yes that is possible. I have back crossed the strain 13 times and have seeds. I will be planting those in the meantime and looking for a similar pheno.
Sweet! sounds like you will be ok one way or the other.
Have to say it. Big business is all about the $$$. @Judaz be honest if you identified it at home on a small scale like you used to you would Infact eradicate the plants correct? I'm not going to judge we all have families to feed but I do agree it's irresponsible and I don't like it.
Don't affect people as far as we know. Science changes... Smoking used to be considered harmless and endorsed by the surgeon general.you guys are correct. I made the mistake of taking cuts from a place and brought them to another place which created a huge problem. This spot is my friends place at his home. He wants to see if we can improve the plant by taking the measures recommended on this thread and applying the knowledge, I’ve gained. Plant viroids only affect plants and pose no health risks to humans. Having Pm on buds and selling that to the consumer is way worse than having a plant with a viroid that yielded buds. So there is no health hazard to the human consumer. The hazard is in passing these clones without letting the person know what they have and infecting their other healthy plants. Which we are not doing. But as far as a test facility, I think it’s a good idea to study this and research to see if a plant can be managed to stay healthy and not let the viroid take over. That I believe is possible from the research I have done and we will see with the results from this place.
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