Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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@Ricksauce
those pics....are they not showing the exact same thing as the pics that I postedView attachment 558457View attachment 558458 View attachment 558459
I was turned on to this thread as my symptoms looked identical but I have since corrected it....leaf twisting back veragation of color....
in your top pic I am trying to figure out what I am looking at....just looks like a lanky plant that has been defoliated of its old leaves....
I hope I am not comming across as a dick....I am trying to figure it out as well since I have seen this in my plants now and have seen it on all kinds of boards and I have also seen the issues corrected....but all in all the symptoms are always the same
All good. This thing is frustrating. Looks like you have a mosaic pattern on some leaves. Couple twists and some tweaks but I'm not seeing classic duds from your photos. Your branches still look like they're growing up. Turgor pressure seems acceptable. Your plants seem rigid enough and your apical fan leaves are still laying down, rather than growing spikey. Not to say you don't also have duds but those pics look like something that can be fixed with what you listed as solutions above.

What strain is that? You have finished flowers of it? Any weird flowers come off of it? You flower any of the weird ones? I'd look at that, too, if you've got any going.
 
Wisher619

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yeah I have had this strain for 2 years
Blue Dream x Platinum GSC
the mother as well as all the plants that I have flowered all have purple stems and trunk
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when I took clones and started them in this coco/hydro deal they began to show the symptoms that you see in the previous pictures
also this plant smells like a bowl of mixed berries in veg as well as flower
but.....in the coco she has begun to smell like a rotting dead skunk which I have never experienced a plant change smells and growth pattern
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stem of my last run this summer all organic
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cured flower pic
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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yeah I have had this strain for 2 years
Blue Dream x Platinum GSC
the mother as well as all the plants that I have flowered all have purple stems and trunkView attachment 558461
when I took clones and started them in this coco/hydro deal they began to show the symptoms that you see in the previous pictures
also this plant smells like a bowl of mixed berries in veg as well as flower
but.....in the coco she has begun to smell like a rotting dead skunk which I have never experienced a plant change smells and growth patternView attachment 558463
stem of my last run this summer all organic
View attachment 558467
cured flower pic
The smell would be the indicator something fungal is going on. I'd be looking for oomycetes and trying to improve drainage. Specifically root rots or water molds, e.g. pythium or fusarium. I don't see duds in your flower pic. There were some good side by sides in this thread early on. I reposted a decent one - it's pirated
 
Duds in dried flowers side by side
Wisher619

Wisher619

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the smell is that of a serious skunk weed like say RKS...not of the mold or rot type
so the flowers on the right are the duds correct....super harry...no trichs....I have seen that before...back in the mid 90's one of my buddies had his hole crop turn to that on a few runs........he took new cuttings and used a differ soil brand and I believe he stopped using the Bat guano that he was using and the next run was corrected.....what was weird was he had been using the same regimen for years and never deviated same nutes and soil and all that...just one run that shit started.....he switched things up and it stopped.....IMO it seems like somehow the plant just stops protecting itself..like the genetic lock is switched off some how...seems hormonal to me when I first saw what my plants were doing I immediately thought hormones.....I was using Liquid Karma and CalMg+ and when I first transplanted them I used Rhizo Blast...the mother and all other cuttings have always been grown in organic amended soil....
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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There's something not awesome going on there but it's not duds. It's not hard to spot once it's ruined you a time or two.
 
Bulldog11

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what did you think of the plants I posted? Duds? Or just russets?
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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what did you think of the plants I posted? Duds? Or just russets?
Hard to tell in plants that deep into flower and so big. The downward bowing branches are certainly tell-tale. The top photo of the second batch looks duddy but I can't tell with any decent degree of certainty. It's way easier for me to spot in veg.

You have a scope? You can see mites of all kinds. They're not invisible. I suspect a lot of invisible broad mites are actually duds.
 
Bulldog11

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For sure saw russet mites. No doubt. However I had extremely woody plants also, some that showed less signs of Russets. Maybe the russets spread the virus? Or is woody stems also a sign of Russets? I never saw stem nemotodes, and I was scoping daily with 60x, 100x-200x scopes.

Like I said before, not sure if I just had russets because those were 100% confirmed. Or if a virus was involved because I had some symptoms that don't go hand in hand with russets.
 
GrowGod

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For sure saw russet mites. No doubt. However I had extremely woody plants also, some that showed less signs of Russets. Maybe the russets spread the virus? Or is woody stems also a sign of Russets? I never saw stem nemotodes, and I was scoping daily with 60x, 100x-200x scopes.

Like I said before, not sure if I just had russets because those were 100% confirmed. Or if a virus was involved because I had some symptoms that don't go hand in hand with russets.
Post up some veg pics bulldog.
 
Ricksauce

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@WeSolidarity proposed root aphids as the original vector. I suppose any bug biting cells could spread something as small as a virus. Hard to know without an ID. If you post a picture of your next veg we can play spot the duds, all day.
 
GrowGod

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So @Ricksauce have you had any practice with tissue culture to rid the virus and or anything else it could be?
 
Ricksauce

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So @Ricksauce have you had any practice with tissue culture to rid the virus and or anything else it could be?
That's our next step. I've got a culture lab for in-house fungal diagnostics but that's easy compared to this. Meristem tissue culture hasn't been necessary for me until now. It's tough. It'll take a few months to get operational but we've pulled the trigger. I'll update. I still want an ID, but the answer is the same regardless of what virus this is. We're go for live tissue culture.
 
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haole

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Second, I just got my deliver RNA Pro. It's possible that someone decided to profit on this problem by selling white powder in a plastic jar because they know 10,000 of us will spend $120 before we realize it's not viable. It's possible that the person that made it and bought the domain for Sunn Hemp Mosaic Virus, found a solution and is selling it. Time will tell. I'm not holding my breath.
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Hi everyone. This is a tough thread for me to read. I just got out of hundreds of hours of plant pathology training, and I wish I could help more. But without plant samples, my best guess is that it is likely that different pathogens or issues are involved for different people showing pictures here. Even if it were the same pathogen, due to the rapid reproduction cycle of many viruses and life cycles of other pathogens, combined with often simple genomes with high mutation frequency, even within a single species of pathogen there can be widely varying degrees of virulence and pathogenicity. In addition, host plants can similarly be resistant or not, while others may be tolerant or not regardless of resistance.

So unfortunately my recommendation is that everyone may need to proceed with whatever evidence they have in front of their own face or through trial and error.

Beyond that, RNA Pro's website is soooooo hilarious!! Did you see what they said?? Complete gibberish is the bottom line, I will take it apart for you:
"The Hemp Mosaic Virus (HMV) is an intracellular parasite that infects plants by attaching itself to its RNA." Not necessarily true, as the literature does not characterize well "hemp mosaic virus," but rather Sunn-hemp mosaic virus, regarding the plant Crotalaria juncea. Hemp mosaic virus is mentioned in some very old work, and McPartland discusses it in his 2000 book Hemp Diseases and Pests. However, he puts it directly, no one even knows what kind of virus it is, or even if the different people that isolated a virus from hemp were working with the same virus. For instance, he mentions a putative "Hemp mottle virus" as well, which could very well be the hemp mosaic virus. So little work has been done, no one really knows.

" The Hemp Mosaic Virus is part of the genus Tobamovirus, the most common of which is Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV)."
Again, wrong, this is about the Sunn-hemp mosaic virus.

"These viral RNA polymerases lack the proof-reading ability of DNA which makes vaccines extremely difficult to develop."
Gibberish. There is no such thing as a vaccine for plants because they don't have an antibody based immune system.

"Mutations occur rapidly and this virus can reduce crop yields by 25% or more. In some cases entire crops can be lost."
Nonsense. While some viruses can completely kill plants and reduce yields far more than that, innumerable others cause no noticeable damage, or may only have a hidden effect like increasing susceptibility to other pathogens.

"RNA Pro is a product that has been shown to effectively treat infected plants and allow gardeners to capture their crop’s full potential."
Difficult to assess without further info, as there are antiviral chemicals that can be applied, such as ningnanmycin, and acetone extract of cottonseed oil sludge, so it is possible that RNA pro is such a compound.

"While it is true there is no vaccine to cure the Hemp Mosaic Virus, there is a particularly effective treatment."
Ridiculous based on what I already covered above.

"RNA Pro works by increasing the plant’s production of the protein coating that is meant to protect it from such viruses."
Uh-huh, this is a really strange use of these ideas. The phrase 'protein coat' is typically used to refer to the viral protein coat. If this is some weird reference to the plant cuticle, which is not a protein, but may be able to protect or limit entry of some viruses, it would not help to strengthen it in already existing infections. Really, there is no way to make sense of the statement, it is just mash of cluelessness.

"By using RNA Pro the virus can not bind the plant’s RNA and thus the symptoms don’t proliferate."
Viral RNA is not typically discussed in terms of binding to plant RNA, although I suppose in some cases, plant messenger RNA could hypothetically bind to a viral single stranded sequence it shared homology with, but this would be exceptionally rare/unlikely/not part of the major mode of action of viral infection.

If you'd like to know how they work, I suggest Roger Hull's 2014 textbook, Plant Virology. It can be found online, and is comprehensive.
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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Solid analysis. I bought RNA Pro for science to see what they'd send me. It was a plastic jar of misc white crystalline powder that smells sort of sweet and acidic. Smells like aspirin. The label is computer paper and poorly affixed. The directions indicate one scoop per 50 gallons. There was no scoop inside. I have low expectations.
 
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haole

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That is fine, I hope it works for you. As I mentioned, if the vendor is kind, he will have put a real antiviral in there. Unfortunately salicylic acid has not been found to treat viruses from my understanding, though it may help with other pathogens.

What we need is some sequencing to get answers. But sampling has to be done carefully. A dsRNA sequencing could shed light on these discussions, as could a deepsequencing. That outfit, phylos bioscience claims to have just deep sequenced 1100 strains, for phylogenetics, but this is just as important an application to such a data set. We should all be berating them to look at the data for viruses (or share the data so we can!!) so we can start to find out if viruses really are going around as commonly as many think. My guess is that they are, but the question then becomes, which viruses? Surely, out of 1100 samples, many must be infected.
 
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haole

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On another note I forgot to mention, Ricksauce, you seem to know some things so I suspect you may know that the crystals you describe are relatively common in cannabis as a quick search of the literature reveals to me. Their quantity has at times been associated with different fungal pathogens; I've seen no mention in relation to viruses.

On another note, I also cannot seem to find any mention of a known member of the Tobamoviruses infecting a Cannabaceae plant....
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

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Yeah the crystal idioblasts themselves aren't remarkable. It's the quantity not the presence that I find interesting. Nothing conclusive, but I've examined a ton of samples and my observations are consistent enough to publicly speculate about why they're showing up. Heavily infected plants tend to look something like the first pic below. The second pic is representative of an asymptomatic sample. The third is the best image I have of a CaC2O4 druse.

Couple things here. First, these are undesirable in cannabis. Anything we can do to reduce the plant's production of these is beneficial. Second, these seem likely an immune response by the plant to a perceived or real threat or a deterrent to predators. Finally, it's possible there's an industry wide xylem impairment issue causing reduced yields across the board due to duds or whatever is going on. This is true whether plants are symptomatic or not. Reduce CaC2O4, increase yield and product quality.

I consider it possible, and this is only a hypothesis, that the pathogen triggers a cellular response which causes the plant to concentrate CaC2O4 druse. I can't prove this but I think it's probable. I speculate that these impair vascular tissues and cause the stunted growth we call duds. I could easily be wrong here.

I found the odd druse accumulations long before I suspected a virus. I've attempted to explain them via fungal infection for quite sometime but have since ruled that out.

Maybe I'm wrong and they're unrelated but it's certainly worth looking into. I'm eager to observe druse concentrations after securing or culturing a duds free sample to grow and test. That'll be a hell of a lesson however it turns out.

I'm no authority on any of this. I'm conducting research and sharing my process in hopes that we collectively make some random connections that further the science. I would prefer that this isn't a virus and to eat my crow and just change a water filter or adjust my pH.
 
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Bulldog11

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Here is a veg shot or two, but not up close......

I love the tissue culture idea. I had a buddy who set up a clean room and a tissue culture set up. Lots of work building a tissue culture set up, but it's the answer to so many problems in the industry. I notice clone providers are now moving to tissue culture, Dark Heart Nursery for example.
 
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GrowGod

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Here is a veg shot or two, but not up close......

I love the tissue culture idea. I had a buddy who set up a clean room and a tissue culture set up. Lots of work building a tissue culture set up, but it's the answer to so many problems in the industry. I notice clone providers are now moving to tissue culture, Dark Heart Nursery for example.
I don't see any dudding what so ever.
 
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