Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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haole

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Well, as your post states, 'dud' derives from Middle English. I am sure many people here know that science however has an inherent bias for words of Latin origination. The synonymous word in the field is "aberrant growth." Aberrant='not normal/expected.' You can see that this in fact is very similar to your definition of dud, "a thing that fails to work properly.' So it is not necessarily stupid; any pathologist worth their salt would stick to generalist terms 'til they had tissue in hand performing assays and getting positive identifications. So while I suppose we could all refer to aberrant growth rather than dud, I think the argument is semantic, and does not inherently 'bring the community backwards.' Few here are qualified to describe their plant symptoms in a scientific way. Furthermore, a detailed discussion of specific symptoms on specific hosts, what scientists attempted to do for decades before effective molecular biology techniques existed, in fact at times brought them backwards, as it was later found that we are often dealing with identical or nearly identical (genomically, or genus:species-wise) organisms/viruses,etc. that produce different symptoms with different host phenotypes, or because they are different pathovars/strains/isolates. I am afraid that I personally believe that while symptoms should be recorded and compared, they should only be done so with a grain of salt, until we can confirm symptoms are definitely associated with said pathogen through controlled studies, clean material, isolated pathogens, and protection from other pathogens. It could well be found afterward that these plants that have lost all vigor have to have a specific set of 3 combined pathogens and this is not produced by any one.

What I believe brings the community backward is not paying attention to the details of the discussions here. Since it is in fact likely that there are different pathogens that are causing problems for people here, as you point out, some could have bacteria, some oomycetes, others could have viruses or other microorganisms, others nematodes, and some could have all of the above, generalist terms about symptoms are preferred, and I for one therefore am not opposed to the terminology within which our conversation is happening considering what limited info there is available. I believe that the thread format is not functional here and that all pictures should be compiled in a single place and compared, but even if we did, different lights/environments/phenos/ etc etc, would still mean there is possibly little we would learn and we'd still revert to the language of dud.

Let's define dud though, I do agree we should ensure we are discussing the same general symptom type. My assumed meaning of dud here is 'loss of plant vigor.' While this is more specific than the 'aberrant growth' I gave above, as it appears to be different than chlorosis, mottling, mosaic, die-back, and other symptoms, for all we know all of these different mentioned symptoms may be produced by the same causative agent that is expressing itself in different ways due to environmental or host factors. In addition, there are probably thousands of different causative agents of general 'loss of plant of vigor.'

If anyone wants to perform a local lesion assay, which as I mentioned is the first and classic way of testing for a virus, and is very cheap to execute but requires some preparation and simple tools, I'd be happy to give enough info here that it could be carried out, or I am sure the same info can be found on the net.
 
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geologic

geologic

Old Pharmer
Supporter
1,912
263
Well, as your post states, 'dud' derives from Middle English. I am sure many people here know that science however has an inherent bias for words of Latin origination. The synonymous word in the field is "aberrant growth." Aberrant='not normal/expected.' You can see that this in fact is very similar to your definition of dud, "a thing that fails to work properly.' So it is not necessarily stupid; any pathologist worth their salt would stick to generalist terms 'til they had tissue in hand performing assays and getting positive identifications. So while I suppose we could all refer to aberrant growth rather than dud, I think the argument is semantic, and does not inherently 'bring the community backwards.' Few here are qualified to describe their plant symptoms in a scientific way. Furthermore, a detailed discussion of specific symptoms on specific hosts, what scientists attempted to do for decades before effective molecular biology techniques existed, in fact at times brought them backwards, as it was later found that we are often dealing with identical or nearly identical (genomically, or genus:species-wise) organisms/viruses,etc. that produce different symptoms with different host phenotypes, or because they are different pathovars/strains/isolates. I am afraid that I personally believe that while symptoms should be recorded and compared, they should only be done so with a grain of salt, until we can confirm symptoms are definitely associated with said pathogen through controlled studies, clean material, isolated pathogens, and protection from other pathogens. It could well be found afterward that these plants that have lost all vigor have to have a specific set of 3 combined pathogens and this is not produced by any one.

What I believe brings the community backward is not paying attention to the details of the discussions here. Since it is in fact likely that there are different pathogens that are causing problems for people here, as you point out, some could have bacteria, some oomycetes, others could have viruses or other microorganisms, others nematodes, and some could have all of the above, generalist terms about symptoms are preferred, and I for one therefore am not opposed to the terminology within which our conversation is happening considering what limited info there is available. I believe that the thread format is not functional here and that all pictures should be compiled in a single place and compared, but even if we did, different lights/environments/phenos/ etc etc, would still mean there is possibly little we would learn and we'd still revert to the language of dud.

Let's define dud though, I do agree we should ensure we are discussing the same general symptom type. My assumed meaning of dud here is 'loss of plant vigor.' While this is more specific than the 'aberrant growth' I gave above, as it appears to be different than chlorosis, mottling, mosaic, die-back, and other symptoms, for all we know all of these different mentioned symptoms may be produced by the same causative agent that is expressing itself in different ways due to environmental or host factors. In addition, there are probably thousands of different causative agents of general 'loss of plant of vigor.'

If anyone wants to perform a local lesion assay, which as I mentioned is the first and classic way of testing for a virus, and is very cheap to execute but requires some preparation and simple tools, I'd be happy to give enough info here that it could be carried out, or I am sure the same info can be found on the net.
> The synonymous word in the field is "aberrant growth." Aberrant='not normal/expected.'

--------------------------------------------------

If the "normal" THC content of "my plant" is ~12-15%,
but "my plant" is 21% THC;
according to your definition--
"my plant" is a dud???...

----------------------------------------------------

The synonyms for aberrant appear to be:
"1. wandering. 2. divergent, unusual."--
those don't possess the evilness associated with your term "dud"...
 
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Hyperfocus

Hyperfocus

6
3
Hello Guys,

can we refresh the Discussion about this Topic by Dissecting some of the Things i wrote?

I am under the Impression that the Red/Purple Stems are Sign of an Pathogen Infection or at least of the Plant beeing in an clearly unfavorable Condition.
Yet alot of Growers dont seem to mind the Red/Purple Stems at all, they seem to attribute this and the lanky, stringy weak vegetative Growth to Genetics only.

Are Red/Purple Stems an Genetic Trait?

The Healthiest Plants i have seen are usually Outdoor(often with supplemental Lighting), usually Organic Fed including Cover Crops like Clover.
I think Lightspectrum may also play a Part in this Planthealth Isssue. I heard from several Nursery Owners that with the use of Plasma Lights or even Full Spectrum LED that their overall Planthealth is alot better.

Please keep the Discussion going.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I'm sorry, but I'm failing to understand how your observations or questions are related specifically to the dud issue this thread is focused on. See my responses below (and may I suggest reading some of the threads in my signature line? specifically The Charts).
I am under the Impression that the Red/Purple Stems are Sign of an Pathogen Infection or at least of the Plant beeing in an clearly unfavorable Condition.
Ok. I don't know why you have that impression. I interpret it as a P utilization/uptake problem most often, and most often I'm right. In the agricultural world, it is usually seen as an inability to utilize P, or a deficiency of P.
Are Red/Purple Stems an Genetic Trait?
Petioles only? Not in my experience growing the exact same strain(s) inside and out. When one is able to make that comparison the whole world opens one's eyes.

If the main stalk/trunk is purple, then it is usually a genetic trait IME.
I think Lightspectrum may also play a Part in this Planthealth Isssue.
Yes. Capulator made a thread on how light spectrum affects nutrient uptake. That is yet another variable. Let me see if I can find and link it. Here we go. Some of the information provided in this thread is fairly advanced. Disfrute!

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...m-affects-nutrient-use-in-plant-tissue.58621/
 
leadsled

leadsled

GrowRU
2,145
263
Please do share on how to do a assay @haole
You got some excellent points. I bring it up in hopes that some solutions can be developed for those that have the will and the way!

So help US learn how to test and/or the tools needed to test. microscope and petri dishes??

Sometimes people do not put the care and work into doing things properly.
Turns out some of the labs may not be all that great at working with cannabis.
In my experience labs can be time consuming and expensive.

Than what if they are incompetent?

I have never gotten any lab to find viruses. I would be wrong to assume that they are perfect and find every problem. people make errors.

imho, what is important it how we own up to them and then learn from our mistakes.
SO please take that into consideration.
If I learn I am wrong I do my best to share the corrected information. Do not want to mislead anyone.
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

49
33
We're doing a ton of work on this in Northern CA. I'd bet all the money that the industry is inundated with multiple viral infections in many if not all states. Seeds are not immune as this is very likely pollen borne. There's no solution or fixing infected plants.

Identifying symptomatic plants is useful for growing until clean cultures can be introduced. Cloning off of your healthiest plants right before you flip vs cloning from mother plants is better. This will mostly outrun the disease symptoms for now. We can't truly tell how far it's spread until we identify the viruses and develop test kits.

It's not a kill all your plants scenario. It's a live with it until we can develop new clean propagation strategy. But if you have obviously symptomatic plants, they won't do well. It doesn't spread more, because it's already spread. If you stress your plants out, they will get sick.other diseases will attack then, too.

I'm probably not wrong, but in this case I'd prefer to be. I'd love a silver bullet.

The implications of this are huge and unpleasant. Look at strawberries in 2002-2004 for a parallel case study.

This video worth the 45 min. It is striking with similarities to our industry:

 
Hyperfocus

Hyperfocus

6
3
We're doing a ton of work on this in Northern CA. I'd bet all the money that the industry is inundated with multiple viral infections in many if not all states. Seeds are not immune as this is very likely pollen borne. There's no solution or fixing infected plants.

Do you happen to see an increasing Occurance of Red Petiole(as in possible P Deficiency) and/or Red Mainstem in those Plants you suspect to be affected by "it"? Im curiously asking cause i seem to also see it everywhere and one of the Signs for me is usually some Red/Purple Stem Discoloration.
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

49
33
I observe stem discolorations yellow, red and in severe cases, brownish. Always brittle. If you can reach over and snap a plant with minimal torque, it's toast.

I get what your going for. Visual ID would be useful. I suspect everything other than the most healthy green stemmed individuals. If it doesn't have a solid healthy green stem I select it out. Red stripes are ok if they're incomplete, but the green has to be very green.

Green like this one below is good. Red striped stems aren't always bad but locked up stems often also turn very red or purple in my experience.
 
Image
xavier7995

xavier7995

1,806
263
I just took clones yesterday, the strain that gave me some weird bizarre germ issues did result in one plant that is pretty freaking nice looking. The clones I took are spot on to the above in appearance. Stems still looked open/hollow/etc so hoping they all pan out fine. Not at all brittle.
 
A

AlphaPhase

7
1
Been following this thread for a while.. Had some dud branches on gg4 a few runs back. Not all of plants dudded, just random branches, hay smell. No trichomes etc. Lost 1/4 of the buds between it all. Haven't had it happen since but have had wierd growth in the garden since I got the gg4 over a year ago.. Not sure what is going on. I have recently culled the last gg4 clone I had, I have 4 s1 gg4 plants rooting in an Aero cloner now, 3/4 of them have been acting up.

Then tonight I noticed my ghostrider OG have been having some random issues pop up. Not sure if it's grower error or what, but after dealing with off the wall issues that has been mentioned here, I figured I'd post pics of my gear that I think have problems. I've been having severe issues of smaller than normal leaves, purple woody stems, odd deficiencies for about a year now. Never had this problem before. Maybe I'm losing my mind, maybe I just started being a bad grower, I dunno, at my wits end, never had a year with so many issues..

Here's ghostrider OG about 1 week in to veg.
Rps20160110 224534
Rps20160110 224547
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Rps20160110 230003


Here's the cuttings for the 4 different gg4 s1 plants. After a month of growing they just went to hell fast. Dunno if it was fungal or not. Roots didn't look good on 3/4 plants. One was fine.

Rps20160110 230015
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Rps20160110 225924
A

AlphaPhase

7
1
I'm not looking for a diagnosis. I know they are not deficient or at least deficient from my doings. I've read this whole thread actually. I've mentioned all the symptoms of the dud and now am seeing it start on other strains as pictured above. Tmv? I dunno. I'll get some pics of the last batch of glue I have in flower that have some dud branches. Horizontal weak branches, small leaves, purple weak stems. The reason I added those pictures is because in the recent pages one of you listed a pic of the exact same whatever deficiencies or funky shaped leaves and said Tmv. So I'm assuming it wasn't Tmv that makes Crescent moon shaped leaves?

I have and use chitosan. Have not used aspirin yet.
 
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Ricksauce

Ricksauce

49
33
Sounds dudsy for sure. No treatment, just cull and try to outgrow infection. GG4 is particularly susceptible
 
papapayne

papapayne

1,239
263
Sounds dudsy for sure. No treatment, just cull and try to outgrow infection. GG4 is particularly susceptible
I'm not looking for a diagnosis. I know they are not deficient or at least deficient from my doings. I've read this whole thread actually. I've mentioned all the symptoms of the dud and now am seeing it start on other strains as pictured above. Tmv? I dunno. I'll get some pics of the last batch of glue I have in flower that have some dud branches. Horizontal weak branches, small leaves, purple weak stems. The reason I added those pictures is because in the recent pages one of you listed a pic of the exact same whatever deficiencies or funky shaped leaves and said Tmv. So I'm assuming it wasn't Tmv that makes Crescent moon shaped leaves?

I have and use chitosan. Have not used aspirin yet.



Alpha - I have been following you for a while, as you well know lol. I don't know if I have just been missing pictures, but your plants have always appeared happy and lush and on time...not so infested with a supposed dud virus they need to just be culled out because this guy says so...

Shit man, I have cuts off your gorilla glue. (thru doc d81 who also has it) And my cut and docs cut are both flourishing- pumping out healthy growth, clone fast, root fast, flower just as expected. We both had em outdoors, indoors for many cycles...starting to really get to the point where I have learned the caveats of her...never seen any signs of dudding or a virus...

Hate to see ya cull your garden because some guy on the internet says so...
 
Ricksauce

Ricksauce

49
33
Papa,
Some guy actually says: if your plants are duds, cull them and replace them with ones that aren't visibly diseased. Hard to argue with that. If they're your only plants, run them through see what you get and get better ones next time. Don't panic, just grow the best plants you can. If you have extras cull the shitty ones.

If you disagree with this being a virus, enter the evidence you have of any other cause you may have developed and let's take a look.
 
A

AlphaPhase

7
1
Hey papa, I've only posted here and there in my journal of some dud plants I've had, I've been cloning tons extra and culling the worst and just squeaking by in flower with out many duds. But it's been a lot of work and already have culled the last glue mama i had until I can figure things out.

When I first got glue over a year ago, it looked so much different than what I have now, it was so vibrant and a healthy plant. Big leaves, very vigorous. Those were the cuts I gave you, after I moved I got a second batch and ever since they have morphed. My 2nd run was full of duds, just nasty hay with no smell or trichomes at all. Just hemp like I guess? Since then I can't get a vigorous enough plant since I don't have a mama room, I just have been cloning before flower to keep cycles going. About a month ago I couldn't tell the difference between my glue and my sour power OG x Chemdog 91. They looked exactly the same. Same symptoms etc. That's when I got scared it was spreading and culled the glue. I still have 2 sour power clones that appear to be growing out of it now, but I've been seeing random things on my ghostrider now, not quite dud like, but just wierd shaped leaves that have me thinking something may be wrong. They seem to be growing quickly though, so I'm hoping to clone them before flower and hope if they are infected I can take healthy clones to out grow the issue. Also, my glue s1 seeds looked ok for a month, then got really wierd. Not sure if it's related but I wouldn't doubt it :( I'm definitely going to finish the last grows of glue I have in flower but I just need to narrow down issues for now in case it ruins other gear I have. It's scary flowering out gear that grows like hemp, it's unacceptable lol.

Here's a suspect dud branch. I usually put blue tape on the branches I think are duds before flower, and they usually dud out. This time since it's my last run with her I didn't.

Pics of glue when I first got her.
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Pics now. She has morphed into something else.
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Suspected dud branch.
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The biggest leaf in the batch.
Rps20160111 145638
 
A

AlphaPhase

7
1
I guess what I want to share is since the day I knew I had dudded plants, I've had an extremely hard time getting plants of a few different strains to grow properly since then. They've all taken on small leaves and really purple main stems, most of the time very woody. Nothing has been vibrant as they should be since then, I do run flood trays so all plants are watered with the same nute solution.

From what I've read here, that could be my main problem, though I hope it's not because I don't want to completely change my growing methods. I also clone with the same scissors and only clean them after I take all the cuts, never between cuts.. So that could be another issue.

Hoping you guys find the answer, many props to all the info posted and all the research and time you've taken on the issue. My friend has the same glue cut and is still getting duds, not as many as a few months ago, but another just popped up. He's had to toss out many rooms to this weird problem.
 
L

lowroller

31
8
bump...
Any new info out there? we are still forced into retirement..
very desperate for any kind of answer
 
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