DWC Plants Dying Please Help

[MHippie]

seriously !!!??




What is toxic?
I normally use the Cal mag with the Lucus Formula, but when using Sensi grow I thought I would add it due to the ppm being so low currently.


I understand AN says don’t PH adjust, it just feels not right. I normally do not have to add the PH adjusters though. The Sensi always stays stable.

Looks like it’s time to chop , clean up and start fresh.

What nutrients do you recommend is us in the Res. And how and when do you recommend I add them?

Chop when you've got green at the top and roots at the bottom??? Stick those ladies in some promix. Ph some water and cal/mag and let them rip. Toss the cooler into your garage for an rainy day and grow those girls out lol!!! Holy shit... "cut"???? Oh no. Fuck that very much lol :))) Dude. Go to the dirt with those clones and thank me at harvest. You wont need to add any nutes until you are ready to exit veg. Water when dry. Nothing is easier.

 

[Aqua Man]

seriously !!!??




What is toxic?
I normally use the Cal mag with the Lucus Formula, but when using Sensi grow I thought I would add it due to the ppm being so low currently.


I understand AN says don’t PH adjust, it just feels not right. I normally do not have to add the PH adjusters though. The Sensi always stays stable.

Looks like it’s time to chop , clean up and start fresh.

What nutrients do you recommend is us in the Res. And how and when do you recommend I add them?

Ph adjusting them or adding cal mag will fuck them up. I vowed to never enter another AN ph perfect thread probably a couple yrs ago now? @Beachwalker

Just throw the ph pen in the closet and don't add anything to them and you should be fine. Also get your sterile or live system in order and it shouldn't be an issue.

I also agree with @MHippie space may be an issue.

 

[TheOhmOne]

You guys think size is an issue in a 5x5 tent with the ROI720?

You guys think a 120L Res is too small to maximize all the potential the ROI720 offers?

I always pulled just under a lb with a 600w light....4x4 tent.

Now I’m really confused.

I am 100% confident I can fill a 5x5 Scrog screen with a canopy full of nice tops. I don’t want anything bigger than this as it’s hard enough to maintain the 5x5 canopies normally, and I think if optimized, with the ROI720, I should easily surpass 1lb.

I enjoy growing via DWC. I do this for the overall experience. Nothing else.
I plan on doing a Bonsai type tree after this next harvest, just for fun.

 

[TheOhmOne]

I recommend trying Flying Skull's product Z7. It is very inexpensive to use and I have seen it fix this type of problem. It is a combination of an enzyme to "activate" the surface of the root and a bacteria that keeps the roots clear of detritus etc. You can call American Agriculture in Portland OR if you can't find it. Everyone there is knowledgeable but if you can get on the phone with Gordon he is an expert on solving these types of problems.
What I am seeing is stopped plants and purple stems. Reading the responses, all seem like good advise but show the multitude of possible problems. The Z7 will rule out root surface problems and if anything allow you to focus on other issues (like bad water, etc).
Hope this helps... If you contact American Agriculture they may have a sample program running so you can try it out. Cost is a few cents a gallon max and has helped many of the people I have consulted over the years.
Lastly, nice clean setup... I like you style dude.

Cheers

Thank you for the kind words and solid advice. I will contact AA tomorrow and get the z7 in stock

I appreciate you!!

 

[Aqua Man]

No you can do it just may be a bit tight on res space.

 

[QuindariousGooch]

This turned into a long post with 3 parts... the Z7 I mentioned in a previous post but wanted to add some info I have found helpful.
I summarized so you can decide to read through up front

Z7 to keep roots clean and active
pH adjustment best practices
How to build a buffer in your res to avoid pH swings

I recommend trying Flying Skull's product Z7.
It is very inexpensive to use and I have seen it fix this type of problem. It is a combination of an enzyme to "activate" the surface of the root and a bacteria that keeps the roots clear of detritus etc. You can call American Agriculture in Portland OR if you can't find it. Everyone there is knowledgeable but if you can get on the phone with Gordon he is an expert on solving these types of problems.
What I am seeing is stopped plants and purple stems. Reading the responses, all seem like good advise but show the multitude of possible problems. The Z7 will rule out root surface problems and if anything allow you to focus on other issues (like bad water, etc).
Hope this helps... If you contact American Agriculture they may have a sample program running so you can try it out. Cost is a few cents a gallon max and has helped many of the people I have consulted over the years.

pH adjustment best practices
You mentioned adjusting pH... I have seen many batches of nutes ruined by adding high concentration pH up or down directly into the nutrient solution. It's best to adjust the water pH with no nutrients but this requires you to know what the pH will be after adding the nutes. More practically we make the nutes and then adjust ph. The way to avoid the Intense chemistry of adding pH up/down in concentrated form can be avoided.
I use phosphoric acid 75% (super cheap but super hot!). 1 drop with decrease 10 gallons of water 0.1 pH.
Commercial pH up/down is much weaker but still too hot to put right into the res without risk to the nutrient balance.

Solution...
Decrease the concentration of the pH adjusting solution to avoid chemical reactions in your res.

Method...
Test the pH of 1 gallon of your water. (RO should be 7)
Add 10ml of pH up or down to a gallon of water
(I'm assuming down since you're starting with RO water)
Re-test and note the effect of you're pH down on 1 gallon of water.
....... for example purposes lets say this drops your water by 0.1 pH points....
if you're nutrient solution (for example) is 6.2 right after mixing in nutrients and your goal is 5.9 the pH needs to drop by 0.3 points.
So, you can add 30ml to a gallon of water and use the full gallon of diluted pH adjusting solution to the res to adjust the pH.
note--if the res is 10gal then be sure to leave room to add the gallon.

By doing this you avoid bad chemistry in your res. If you see a white cloud for a second when adding pH adjuster the res is ruined IMO and should be remixed. You will also discover what your starting water pH should be and will be able to avoid the problem all together by pre-treating your RO water before adding nutes.

Buffer building
If you are getting pH swings between changes building your solution into a solid buffer can be a benefit.
Very simple to do and cheap if you use concentrated solutions of acid and base.

1. Add pH up to the res water BEFORE adding nutes until it reads 10 to 11+ pH.
2. Then add pH down until the pH is 3 to 4 pH.
3. Then add pH up until you reach 7 pH.

A little basic chemistry...
Acid or pH down is a bunch of Hydrogen H+
Base or pH up is a bunch of Hydroxyl OH-
pH 7 means equal amounts of H+ and OH- on the solution...neutral
( H+ plus OH- = H2O neutral)

pH swings in your nutrient solution can be caused by there not being enough H+ and OH- ions in the solution. Rather than boring you with the chemistry on that suffice it to say that by adding the H+'s and OH-'s you are building water with more available ions. H+ and OH- ions can be "used" by compounds in the nutrient solution. If you are starting with a solution that contains fewer ions the effect of "using" some ions will have a bigger effect on pH.

example for explanation.... I'll use apples to avoid confusion and explain the principal idea...

Basket 1 has 100 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? Not really...so no significant % effect
Basket 2 has 10 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? For sure... the same number of apples taken from basket with less apples has a greater effect on the percentage left.
Basket 1 experienced a 5% drop where basket 2 experienced a 50% drop.

By adding the ions when you build the buffer you are increasing the available Ions so if there is an "ion grab" from the nutrients it won't deplete ions enough to affect pH significantly.
Building the buffer is like putting more apples in your basket so small grabs mean less.

Hope that makes sense and helps. If anything is unclear I am glad to fine tune the info.

Lastly, nice clean setup... I like you style dude.

Cheers,
Quindarious

 

[QuindariousGooch]

Thank you for the kind words and solid advice. I will contact AA tomorrow and get the z7 in stock

I appreciate you!!

If you talk to Gordon drop my friends name Craig who was a rep a few years ago. If it helps or he advises something else I am all ears. That dude knows his stuff!

 

[Aqua Man]

This turned into a long post with 3 parts... the Z7 I mentioned in a previous post but wanted to add some info I have found helpful.
I summarized so you can decide to read through up front

Z7 to keep roots clean and active
pH adjustment best practices
How to build a buffer in your res to avoid pH swings

I recommend trying Flying Skull's product Z7.
It is very inexpensive to use and I have seen it fix this type of problem. It is a combination of an enzyme to "activate" the surface of the root and a bacteria that keeps the roots clear of detritus etc. You can call American Agriculture in Portland OR if you can't find it. Everyone there is knowledgeable but if you can get on the phone with Gordon he is an expert on solving these types of problems.
What I am seeing is stopped plants and purple stems. Reading the responses, all seem like good advise but show the multitude of possible problems. The Z7 will rule out root surface problems and if anything allow you to focus on other issues (like bad water, etc).
Hope this helps... If you contact American Agriculture they may have a sample program running so you can try it out. Cost is a few cents a gallon max and has helped many of the people I have consulted over the years.

pH adjustment best practices
You mentioned adjusting pH... I have seen many batches of nutes ruined by adding high concentration pH up or down directly into the nutrient solution. It's best to adjust the water pH with no nutrients but this requires you to know what the pH will be after adding the nutes. More practically we make the nutes and then adjust ph. The way to avoid the Intense chemistry of adding pH up/down in concentrated form can be avoided.
I use phosphoric acid 75% (super cheap but super hot!). 1 drop with decrease 10 gallons of water 0.1 pH.
Commercial pH up/down is much weaker but still too hot to put right into the res without risk to the nutrient balance.

Solution...
Decrease the concentration of the pH adjusting solution to avoid chemical reactions in your res.

Method...
Test the pH of 1 gallon of your water. (RO should be 7)
Add 10ml of pH up or down to a gallon of water
(I'm assuming down since you're starting with RO water)
Re-test and note the effect of you're pH down on 1 gallon of water.
....... for example purposes lets say this drops your water by 0.1 pH points....
if you're nutrient solution (for example) is 6.2 right after mixing in nutrients and your goal is 5.9 the pH needs to drop by 0.3 points.
So, you can add 30ml to a gallon of water and use the full gallon of diluted pH adjusting solution to the res to adjust the pH.
note--if the res is 10gal then be sure to leave room to add the gallon.

By doing this you avoid bad chemistry in your res. If you see a white cloud for a second when adding pH adjuster the res is ruined IMO and should be remixed. You will also discover what your starting water pH should be and will be able to avoid the problem all together by pre-treating your RO water before adding nutes.

Buffer building
If you are getting pH swings between changes building your solution into a solid buffer can be a benefit.
Very simple to do and cheap if you use concentrated solutions of acid and base.

1. Add pH up to the res water BEFORE adding nutes until it reads 10 to 11+ pH.
2. Then add pH down until the pH is 3 to 4 pH.
3. Then add pH up until you reach 7 pH.

A little basic chemistry...
Acid or pH down is a bunch of Hydrogen H+
Base or pH up is a bunch of Hydroxyl OH-
pH 7 means equal amounts of H+ and OH- on the solution...neutral
( H+ plus OH- = H2O neutral)

pH swings in your nutrient solution can be caused by there not being enough H+ and OH- ions in the solution. Rather than boring you with the chemistry on that suffice it to say that by adding the H+'s and OH-'s you are building water with more available ions. H+ and OH- ions can be "used" by compounds in the nutrient solution. If you are starting with a solution that contains fewer ions the effect of "using" some ions will have a bigger effect on pH.

example for explanation.... I'll use apples to avoid confusion and explain the principal idea...

Basket 1 has 100 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? Not really...so no significant % effect
Basket 2 has 10 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? For sure... the same number of apples taken from basket with less apples has a greater effect on the percentage left.
Basket 1 experienced a 5% drop where basket 2 experienced a 50% drop.

By adding the ions when you build the buffer you are increasing the available Ions so if there is an "ion grab" from the nutrients it won't deplete ions enough to affect pH significantly.
Building the buffer is like putting more apples in your basket so small grabs mean less.

Hope that makes sense and helps. If anything is unclear I am glad to fine tune the info.

Lastly, nice clean setup... I like you style dude.

Cheers,
Quindarious

Very good advice... but ph perfect is a different beast. You can't mess with it and it goes against the rules.

OP this may help explain buffering for you if you ever switch from ph perfect.

Marijuana pH Levels for Growing Weed: A Basic Explanation

OK I'm going to do my best to explain PH since its something that is for the most part greatly misunderstood and can be confusing to new growers and even experienced growers alike. This will explain why we need both ppm and PH meters to give us informed information about PH This will be a...

www.thcfarmer.com

 

[Aqua Man]

I have seen this countless times. Case and point these nutes often are problematic and its because ppl try to ph and buffer. Also suggest RO water with it

Advanced Nutrients PH Perfect Guide For New Growers

Do not PH correct your solution. It will cause pH issues like odd yellow leaf patches and twisted leaves. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true with those nutes. If you call the growers help line on the side of the bottle, they’ll confirm it. The chelates and surfactants in PH perfect nutes...

www.thcfarmer.com

 

[Roadblock]

Interesting I will dive into this. Thank you!!
What was your source water before your current system?

how much Hydrosil do you use, and how exactly do you add it when topping off?

thanx again

My source is rainwater, trouble started when I pumped across another 1/2 tank that was around the other side that had been sitting for awhile with the hole cover missing so frogs and stuff got, in I needed the water, it was bad water and trouble started from then on, no matter how much I cleaned the system and no matter how much Peroxide, how much Chlorine etc I tried everything it would always come right back, then I set up a UV sterilizer and filters on my source water and my problems never came back and the rdwc system is running really clean its high quality water, once the UV was in place a simple clean between grows and next run is great no problems, honestly for the money a UV filter system is great insurance on water quality, RO does not sterilize Ive used RO water and Id rather UV and filter treated, way less wasteful and it gives great water.

Hydrosil is to catch what ever touches the system after the UV has done its job, I use it at the rate on the bottle , 200ml per 1000 ltr, my system holds 800ltrs . I use Peroxide test strips and run at 50ppm, and use it every 3 days.

I like to keep things simple I use no additives just HG Aqua Flakes , Ive seen guys throw a lot of money on additives and get no more in yield, I feel if you want to supercharge a garden its got to be perfect otherwise something along the chain thats not quite right will pull everything down to that level.

 

[Beachwalker]

Ph adjusting them or adding cal mag will fuck them up. I vowed to never enter another AN ph perfect thread probably a couple yrs ago now? @Beachwalker

Just throw the ph pen in the closet and don't add anything to them and you should be fine. Also get your sterile or live system in order and it shouldn't be an issue.

I also agree with @MHippie space may be an issue.

I have seen this countless times. Case and point these nutes often are problematic and its because ppl try to ph and buffer. Also suggest RO water with it

Advanced Nutrients PH Perfect Guide For New Growers

Do not PH correct your solution. It will cause pH issues like odd yellow leaf patches and twisted leaves. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true with those nutes. If you call the growers help line on the side of the bottle, they’ll confirm it. The chelates and surfactants in PH perfect nutes...

www.thcfarmer.com

+1

 

[russiangrower]

I wanted to ask a question. What distance should I keep in the system from water to a cube in mineral wool ?

 

[chemistry]

I wanted to ask a question. What distance should I keep in the system from water to a cube in mineral wool ?

I like two inches.

 

[FourthCity]

I like two inches.

Im gonna walk right past that easy setup and ask if you mean two inches between the water and the rockwool or two inches between the water and the net pot? I agree if you mean two inches between water and net pot, I like about another inch of hydroton between the bottom of the netpot and the rockwool (with even more on the sides).

 

[TheOhmOne]

Absolutely no growth still.

Purchased a 150L all white coleman marine cooler.

I also purchased 6” net pots. Well actually they are Atrium Grates used outdoors. I also got little raised platforms, to essentially create an inverted netpot. Hopefully to help with rockwool issues.


I will be doing 3 plants in the 150L Res.

I am going to stop using AN nutrients. I have GH Mirco and Bloom on hand.


What do you guys recommend ?

 

[TheOhmOne]

My source is rainwater, trouble started when I pumped across another 1/2 tank that was around the other side that had been sitting for awhile with the hole cover missing so frogs and stuff got, in I needed the water, it was bad water and trouble started from then on, no matter how much I cleaned the system and no matter how much Peroxide, how much Chlorine etc I tried everything it would always come right back, then I set up a UV sterilizer and filters on my source water and my problems never came back and the rdwc system is running really clean its high quality water, once the UV was in place a simple clean between grows and next run is great no problems, honestly for the money a UV filter system is great insurance on water quality, RO does not sterilize Ive used RO water and Id rather UV and filter treated, way less wasteful and it gives great water.

Hydrosil is to catch what ever touches the system after the UV has done its job, I use it at the rate on the bottle , 200ml per 1000 ltr, my system holds 800ltrs . I use Peroxide test strips and run at 50ppm, and use it every 3 days.

I like to keep things simple I use no additives just HG Aqua Flakes , Ive seen guys throw a lot of money on additives and get no more in yield, I feel if you want to supercharge a garden its got to be perfect otherwise something along the chain thats not quite right will pull everything down to that level.

Can you explain what what goes into your res throughout a grow? And how you typically do top offs?
Also, how frequently are you cleaning the res out ?
Thanx for your time

 

[TheOhmOne]

This turned into a long post with 3 parts... the Z7 I mentioned in a previous post but wanted to add some info I have found helpful.
I summarized so you can decide to read through up front

Z7 to keep roots clean and active
pH adjustment best practices
How to build a buffer in your res to avoid pH swings

I recommend trying Flying Skull's product Z7.
It is very inexpensive to use and I have seen it fix this type of problem. It is a combination of an enzyme to "activate" the surface of the root and a bacteria that keeps the roots clear of detritus etc. You can call American Agriculture in Portland OR if you can't find it. Everyone there is knowledgeable but if you can get on the phone with Gordon he is an expert on solving these types of problems.
What I am seeing is stopped plants and purple stems. Reading the responses, all seem like good advise but show the multitude of possible problems. The Z7 will rule out root surface problems and if anything allow you to focus on other issues (like bad water, etc).
Hope this helps... If you contact American Agriculture they may have a sample program running so you can try it out. Cost is a few cents a gallon max and has helped many of the people I have consulted over the years.

pH adjustment best practices
You mentioned adjusting pH... I have seen many batches of nutes ruined by adding high concentration pH up or down directly into the nutrient solution. It's best to adjust the water pH with no nutrients but this requires you to know what the pH will be after adding the nutes. More practically we make the nutes and then adjust ph. The way to avoid the Intense chemistry of adding pH up/down in concentrated form can be avoided.
I use phosphoric acid 75% (super cheap but super hot!). 1 drop with decrease 10 gallons of water 0.1 pH.
Commercial pH up/down is much weaker but still too hot to put right into the res without risk to the nutrient balance.

Solution...
Decrease the concentration of the pH adjusting solution to avoid chemical reactions in your res.

Method...
Test the pH of 1 gallon of your water. (RO should be 7)
Add 10ml of pH up or down to a gallon of water
(I'm assuming down since you're starting with RO water)
Re-test and note the effect of you're pH down on 1 gallon of water.
....... for example purposes lets say this drops your water by 0.1 pH points....
if you're nutrient solution (for example) is 6.2 right after mixing in nutrients and your goal is 5.9 the pH needs to drop by 0.3 points.
So, you can add 30ml to a gallon of water and use the full gallon of diluted pH adjusting solution to the res to adjust the pH.
note--if the res is 10gal then be sure to leave room to add the gallon.

By doing this you avoid bad chemistry in your res. If you see a white cloud for a second when adding pH adjuster the res is ruined IMO and should be remixed. You will also discover what your starting water pH should be and will be able to avoid the problem all together by pre-treating your RO water before adding nutes.

Buffer building
If you are getting pH swings between changes building your solution into a solid buffer can be a benefit.
Very simple to do and cheap if you use concentrated solutions of acid and base.

1. Add pH up to the res water BEFORE adding nutes until it reads 10 to 11+ pH.
2. Then add pH down until the pH is 3 to 4 pH.
3. Then add pH up until you reach 7 pH.

A little basic chemistry...
Acid or pH down is a bunch of Hydrogen H+
Base or pH up is a bunch of Hydroxyl OH-
pH 7 means equal amounts of H+ and OH- on the solution...neutral
( H+ plus OH- = H2O neutral)

pH swings in your nutrient solution can be caused by there not being enough H+ and OH- ions in the solution. Rather than boring you with the chemistry on that suffice it to say that by adding the H+'s and OH-'s you are building water with more available ions. H+ and OH- ions can be "used" by compounds in the nutrient solution. If you are starting with a solution that contains fewer ions the effect of "using" some ions will have a bigger effect on pH.

example for explanation.... I'll use apples to avoid confusion and explain the principal idea...

Basket 1 has 100 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? Not really...so no significant % effect
Basket 2 has 10 apples. If you take 5 out would it be noticeable? For sure... the same number of apples taken from basket with less apples has a greater effect on the percentage left.
Basket 1 experienced a 5% drop where basket 2 experienced a 50% drop.

By adding the ions when you build the buffer you are increasing the available Ions so if there is an "ion grab" from the nutrients it won't deplete ions enough to affect pH significantly.
Building the buffer is like putting more apples in your basket so small grabs mean less.

Hope that makes sense and helps. If anything is unclear I am glad to fine tune the info.

Lastly, nice clean setup... I like you style dude.

Cheers,
Quindarious

That is very clear! I appreciate the time you took to post that! Extremity helpful’

So PH my water before adding nutrients. Got it.
Do you have any base nutrient recommendations? And how do you go about mixing those in properly ?

thank you again !!

 

[FourthCity]

What do you guys recommend ?

I recommend (again) that you use 6+ inch netpots, not atrium grates and individual reservoirs instead of one big one. Why ruin a perfectly good new cooler? I mean for $15 you can have a bucket, netpot lid, hydroton, airstone, and hose so why keep trying to cram a bunch of plants together?

 

[TheOhmOne]

I have seen this countless times. Case and point these nutes often are problematic and its because ppl try to ph and buffer. Also suggest RO water with it

Advanced Nutrients PH Perfect Guide For New Growers

Do not PH correct your solution. It will cause pH issues like odd yellow leaf patches and twisted leaves. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true with those nutes. If you call the growers help line on the side of the bottle, they’ll confirm it. The chelates and surfactants in PH perfect nutes...

www.thcfarmer.com

What bass nutrient line do you recommend in DWC?

 

[TheOhmOne]

I recommend (again) that you use 6+ inch netpots, not atrium grates and individual reservoirs instead of one big one. Why ruin a perfectly good new cooler? I mean for $15 you can have a bucket, netpot lid, hydroton, airstone, and hose so why keep trying to cram a bunch of plants together?

It’s 3 planes in 40 gallons of water ?